Author Topic: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process  (Read 16327 times)

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Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #75 on: June 30, 2016, 11:20:16 AM »

Offline jpotter33

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So, I didn't want to read through the whole thread, since this entire argument has been played out many times already on this blog(;D), so I don't know if this has already been posted or was in the article itself.

However, it's now being reported that it's widely believed that Silver did in fact pressure Philly to hire Colangelo, which essentially pushed Hinkie out, due to the complaining of other team owners.

"NBA commissioner Adam Silver reportedly played a significant role in the 76ers hiring Jerry Colangelo — effectively ending Sam Hinkie’s Process — after other owners complained.

Silver said he only made introductions, but many around the league remain unconvinced."

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2016/06/30/report-many-around-nba-believe-adam-silver-pressured-76ers-into-hiring-jerry-colangelo/

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #76 on: June 30, 2016, 11:44:49 AM »

Offline Robb

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Hinkie is a BS artist of the highest degree. Kudos on somehow convincing management to put up with three years of historic failure in return for three centers who cannot play together and a potential all-star in Simmons. Imagine if they had not gotten lucky in this last lottery. The funniest part: A teenager with a mock draft guide each year could have produced the same end result.

It was interesting, but it was not genius execution by any means...

Incorrect. Read the article. He routinely turned less into more through his trades with other teams and negotiations with agents over second round picks.

If anyone is interested in reading substantive information on what happened in Philly look for Ryan Bernardoni (@dangercart) on Reddit or Celtics Hub. He has one of the most interesting perspectives on Hinkie, ownership relationships, and franchises and I think gets to the heart of what happened in Philly a lot better than the hot take machines on ESPN radio and in the media that only focus on the lottery and tanking.
We're the ones we've been waiting for.

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #77 on: June 30, 2016, 04:00:34 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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So, I didn't want to read through the whole thread, since this entire argument has been played out many times already on this blog(;D), so I don't know if this has already been posted or was in the article itself.

However, it's now being reported that it's widely believed that Silver did in fact pressure Philly to hire Colangelo, which essentially pushed Hinkie out, due to the complaining of other team owners.

"NBA commissioner Adam Silver reportedly played a significant role in the 76ers hiring Jerry Colangelo — effectively ending Sam Hinkie’s Process — after other owners complained.

Silver said he only made introductions, but many around the league remain unconvinced."

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2016/06/30/report-many-around-nba-believe-adam-silver-pressured-76ers-into-hiring-jerry-colangelo/
I skimmed the ESPN Hinkie article, but that was my favorite part:

Quote
Says Rockets GM Daryl Morey, Hinkie's former boss in Houston: "The common refrain I've heard is that [Hinkie] is taking the easy way out and taking advantage of the rules. The league chooses to give the most valuable asset in the game -- a high draft pick -- to the worst team. So if people want to be upset about how well Philly has set themselves up, they should get upset with the league office and the collective owners who wouldn't pass even the modest reforms that were put forward."
...

Consider too: The Kings haven't finished with a .500 record since 2005-06 and just hired their sixth coach in five years. In neither case did the NBA force a regime change.

By stepping in and facilitating the Jerry Colangelo move in Philadelphia, then, Silver sent a message: Gross incompetence is acceptable; strategic gaming of a flawed system is not.

That's spot-on. 

Problem is, they've done nothing whatsoever to punish the team.   They still finished out the tankjob as expected.  They still landed their ultimate prize.   They still are pushing forward with trying to build a team as expected.   There's no way they'd still be in tank mode this season if Hinkie was still around.  So it really didn't make a lick of difference.  If Philly's plan proves to be fruitful, then they will have successfully gamed a flawed system.   

Like in my hypothetical on the previous page.  If I'm a clothing company owner who condones my production manager's plan to use child labor to pump out high quality hoodies on the cheap for 3 years... and then I just fire the manager and sell my bounty of high quality hoodies as intended for a major profit, what difference does it make to me?  I'm perfectly content letting that "evil" manager be the fall guy for a plan I signed off on and will reap the rewards from.

It's totally fine that the Kings have had a losing record for 10 straight seasons.  But Philly intentionally bottoming out for a few years makes everyone lose their minds.  Hilarious.

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #78 on: June 30, 2016, 04:17:09 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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So, I didn't want to read through the whole thread, since this entire argument has been played out many times already on this blog(;D), so I don't know if this has already been posted or was in the article itself.

However, it's now being reported that it's widely believed that Silver did in fact pressure Philly to hire Colangelo, which essentially pushed Hinkie out, due to the complaining of other team owners.

"NBA commissioner Adam Silver reportedly played a significant role in the 76ers hiring Jerry Colangelo — effectively ending Sam Hinkie’s Process — after other owners complained.

Silver said he only made introductions, but many around the league remain unconvinced."

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2016/06/30/report-many-around-nba-believe-adam-silver-pressured-76ers-into-hiring-jerry-colangelo/
I skimmed the ESPN Hinkie article, but that was my favorite part:

Quote
Says Rockets GM Daryl Morey, Hinkie's former boss in Houston: "The common refrain I've heard is that [Hinkie] is taking the easy way out and taking advantage of the rules. The league chooses to give the most valuable asset in the game -- a high draft pick -- to the worst team. So if people want to be upset about how well Philly has set themselves up, they should get upset with the league office and the collective owners who wouldn't pass even the modest reforms that were put forward."
...

Consider too: The Kings haven't finished with a .500 record since 2005-06 and just hired their sixth coach in five years. In neither case did the NBA force a regime change.

By stepping in and facilitating the Jerry Colangelo move in Philadelphia, then, Silver sent a message: Gross incompetence is acceptable; strategic gaming of a flawed system is not.

That's spot-on. 

Problem is, they've done nothing whatsoever to punish the team.   They still finished out the tankjob as expected.  They still landed their ultimate prize.   They still are pushing forward with trying to build a team as expected.   There's no way they'd still be in tank mode this season if Hinkie was still around.  So it really didn't make a lick of difference.  If Philly's plan proves to be fruitful, then they will have successfully gamed a flawed system.   

Like in my hypothetical on the previous page.  If I'm a clothing company owner who condones my production manager's plan to use child labor to pump out high quality hoodies on the cheap for 3 years... and then I just fire the manager and sell my bounty of high quality hoodies as intended for a major profit, what difference does it make to me?  I'm perfectly content letting that "evil" manager be the fall guy for a plan I signed off on and will reap the rewards from.

It's totally fine that the Kings have had a losing record for 10 straight seasons.  But Philly intentionally bottoming out for a few years makes everyone lose their minds.  Hilarious.
Im not sure if you are slightly more or slightly less morally bankrupt than the "evil" manager.

In this situation I think its perfectly fair for people to look at you and be disgusted and hope for you to fail and also perfectly fair for them to look at your "evil" manager and be glad he got fired and hope for the worst for him. However, ultimately if you want to prevent stuff like this from happening in the future you need to fix the loopholes.

I hope Hinkie never finds another job in basketball. I hope the Philly tank operation is a failure. I hope they trade Noel for pennies on the dollar, I hope Simmons somehow busts and I hope Embiid never plays significant minutes for the 6ers. All in all I hope this Philly rebuild never reached true contention.

I also hope the NBA finds a way to make tanking a less deadly weapon in the rebuilding process.

Is anything above laughable or hilarious. I think it is a more than valid response to what has happened in Philly.
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #79 on: June 30, 2016, 07:45:53 PM »

Offline GC003332

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How many championships do the Sixers have to win over the next 7-8 years for their plan to be justified.
The posters who love discussing the process should man up and draw a line in the sand, but given their body of work on this forum , don't hold your breath waiting for an actual clear cut answer. That would require accountability.
Interesting...   

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #80 on: June 30, 2016, 07:47:17 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Try OKC

They sucked ass for 3 years, and have been in contention ever since. Boom. No one ****es about how bad they were. They pretty much did exactly what Philly did they just did it with more efficiency and better luck.

If anyone is wondering why this argument keeps going, I do it because people keep saying things that aren't true and I don't want people to be misled.  OKC did not do what Philly has done.  They did not tank to get Durant.  They did tank the next year and wound up with Westbrook wasn't a top two pick and no one thought he was going to be as good as he is.  They did not tank the year after that but still got lucky again by getting Harden.

Good luck is great when it happens.  Betting the future of an NBA franchise on luck is dumb.

Mike
OKC tanked for 2.5 year.  They traded away every single useful veteran for future assets and young players.  They absorbed players into their cap space for future picks as well.  They didn't sign a single free agent of any worth in that time period either.  I went through their history on here once and laid out every single move.  The real difference is that Kevin Durant was OKC's first pick (and was also a higher pick than any pick Philly had until Simmons) and he was pretty good immediately, and thus they weren't as bad because they had their future superstar immediately.
Imagine if Portland had chosen Durant because of Odin's injuries.  The OKC rebuild wouldn't have gone nearly so well. 

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #81 on: June 30, 2016, 08:38:50 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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How many championships do the Sixers have to win over the next 7-8 years for their plan to be justified.
The posters who love discussing the process should man up and draw a line in the sand, but given their body of work on this forum , don't hold your breath waiting for an actual clear cut answer. That would require accountability.
Interesting...   
losing a little and losing a lot makes no difference.  The kings have had a losing record for 10 straight years.

For Philly's plan to be justified they just need to win 50+ games at some point.  Scoff if you will, but Philly has won 50+ games exactly once in the past 26 years and it happened because they had a borderline superstar named Allen Iverson.   They don't need to win a title.  They just need to be mildly relevant again for it to all be worth it.

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #82 on: June 30, 2016, 09:09:37 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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How many championships do the Sixers have to win over the next 7-8 years for their plan to be justified.
The posters who love discussing the process should man up and draw a line in the sand, but given their body of work on this forum , don't hold your breath waiting for an actual clear cut answer. That would require accountability.
Interesting...   
Using championships as the measure of success is the road to failure.  We'll be lucky to win a championship over the next 7 or 8 years.  The goal of the process was to put together a 50 win team that could compete for championships for many years.  With Hinkle gone, it will be harder to attribute praise/blame for the Sixer's success/failure. 

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #83 on: June 30, 2016, 09:15:53 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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How many championships do the Sixers have to win over the next 7-8 years for their plan to be justified.
The posters who love discussing the process should man up and draw a line in the sand, but given their body of work on this forum , don't hold your breath waiting for an actual clear cut answer. That would require accountability.
Interesting...   
losing a little and losing a lot makes no difference.  The kings have had a losing record for 10 straight years.

For Philly's plan to be justified they just need to win 50+ games at some point.  Scoff if you will, but Philly has won 50+ games exactly once in the past 26 years and it happened because they had a borderline superstar named Allen Iverson.   They don't need to win a title.  They just need to be mildly relevant again for it to all be worth it.
WHAT?!?!?!?!?!

To consider Hinkie's plan a success all the Sixers have to do is win 50 games? Trash a franchise for a 3 year(or more, they could be a bottom 5 team for many more years) to only win 50 games? Then Hinkie isn't the idiot. The Sixers ownership is for settling for possibly killing their franchise for just a 50 win season. Complete nonsense, IMHO. And I am glad as I hate that team only slightly less than the Lakers.

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #84 on: June 30, 2016, 09:37:10 PM »

Offline GetLucky

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How many championships do the Sixers have to win over the next 7-8 years for their plan to be justified.
The posters who love discussing the process should man up and draw a line in the sand, but given their body of work on this forum , don't hold your breath waiting for an actual clear cut answer. That would require accountability.
Interesting...   
losing a little and losing a lot makes no difference.  The kings have had a losing record for 10 straight years.

For Philly's plan to be justified they just need to win 50+ games at some point.  Scoff if you will, but Philly has won 50+ games exactly once in the past 26 years and it happened because they had a borderline superstar named Allen Iverson.   They don't need to win a title.  They just need to be mildly relevant again for it to all be worth it.
WHAT?!?!?!?!?!

To consider Hinkie's plan a success all the Sixers have to do is win 50 games? Trash a franchise for a 3 year(or more, they could be a bottom 5 team for many more years) to only win 50 games? Then Hinkie isn't the idiot. The Sixers ownership is for settling for possibly killing their franchise for just a 50 win season. Complete nonsense, IMHO. And I am glad as I hate that team only slightly less than the Lakers.

That's the point LarBrd is trying to make. The franchise was "trashed" already, with only 1 50-win season in 23 years. So if the 76ers win 50 games, it'd be their first non-mediocre/horrible season in over fifteen years. Instead of being a fringe contender indefinitely, why not suck for a few years and be an actual contender for many more? Everyone talks about "avoiding the treadmill." The 76ers owners had a long taste of the treadmill and hated it, so they approved Hinkie's plan. Hinkie's has been unjustly crucified as the media-driven "face" of tanking.

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #85 on: June 30, 2016, 09:51:24 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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How many championships do the Sixers have to win over the next 7-8 years for their plan to be justified.
The posters who love discussing the process should man up and draw a line in the sand, but given their body of work on this forum , don't hold your breath waiting for an actual clear cut answer. That would require accountability.
Interesting...   
losing a little and losing a lot makes no difference.  The kings have had a losing record for 10 straight years.

For Philly's plan to be justified they just need to win 50+ games at some point.  Scoff if you will, but Philly has won 50+ games exactly once in the past 26 years and it happened because they had a borderline superstar named Allen Iverson.   They don't need to win a title.  They just need to be mildly relevant again for it to all be worth it.
WHAT?!?!?!?!?!

To consider Hinkie's plan a success all the Sixers have to do is win 50 games? Trash a franchise for a 3 year(or more, they could be a bottom 5 team for many more years) to only win 50 games? Then Hinkie isn't the idiot. The Sixers ownership is for settling for possibly killing their franchise for just a 50 win season. Complete nonsense, IMHO. And I am glad as I hate that team only slightly less than the Lakers.

That's the point LarBrd is trying to make. The franchise was "trashed" already, with only 1 50-win season in 23 years. So if the 76ers win 50 games, it'd be their first non-mediocre/horrible season in over fifteen years. Instead of being a fringe contender indefinitely, why not suck for a few years and be an actual contender for many more? Everyone talks about "avoiding the treadmill." The 76ers owners had a long taste of the treadmill and hated it, so they approved Hinkie's plan. Hinkie's has been unjustly crucified as the media-driven "face" of tanking.
Exactly.  I'm sure if the Kings could wind back the clock and suffer through a handful of 10 win seasons to put themselves in position to land a transcendent talent and start winning 50+ indefinitely - as opposed to spending a decade winning 17-38 games, adding mediocre prospects, and having no real hope of getting above the .500 hump anytime soon - they'd suffer through the handful of 10 win seasons.