Author Topic: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process  (Read 16328 times)

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Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #60 on: June 30, 2016, 01:27:11 AM »

Offline GetLucky

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Say what you want about "The Process," but I'm scared as anything about Embiid. The dude looks like a 7'2" Dwight Howard and had two years to work on his shot.

As a basketball card collector, I'm looking at swooping up some of his autographs and rookie cards. What do you guys think?

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #61 on: June 30, 2016, 01:27:54 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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The golden prize = Ben Simmons... a potentially transcendent player.  That was the point all along. 

And the reason Philly got Simmons instead of Boston?  Pure luck.  Three years of some of the worst basketball ever seen in the history of the NBA...and their entire plan STILL hinged on pure luck.

That's not smart.  That's stupid.  Even if it works.

Mike
Yes.  Luck.  Which is why doing it for multi years made a huge difference.  You bottom out long enough you'll eventually land a superstar.   Only took Philly 3 years and they might have two of em.  That's a wild success.  That's exactly what Philly set out to do when they hired hinkie.

And no, the losing is not going to matter at all long term.

1.  That's like saying you'll win the lottery if you just keep playing long enough.  It's mathematically illiterate.

2.  Philly might have no superstars.  Simmons could just as easily be some version of Michael Beasley or Lamar Odom as LeBron.  Embiid might never play a game.  They just tried to trade Noel or Okafor and no one was willing to even approach the asking price.

3.  Philly isn't getting a sit down with Durant.  Boston is.  Why?  Because they suck and we don't.  Will that change if Philly stops sucking?  Sure.  And how long is that going to take?  Another two or three years just to get to where Boston is right now?  And how many opportunities will they lose out on because they suck?

After three years of "The Process," Boston is closer to winning a title than Philly is to winning 30 games.

Mike
I love bostons situation. We are in great shape.   If they land durant, they obviously are in better shape than philly.

Philly is in beautiful position as well.  You don't seem to understand what is happening there.  I'm fine with that.  Maybe eventually you will.  Plenty of time and the process is still in the infancy.  We will see eventually whether or not it was successful.   Should have some strong hints one way or the other next season whether Hinkie's tenure was worth it.  So far, it seems it was. 

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #62 on: June 30, 2016, 01:31:15 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Say what you want about "The Process," but I'm scared as anything about Embiid. The dude looks like a 7'2" Dwight Howard and had two years to work on his shot.

As a basketball card collector, I'm looking at swooping up some of his autographs and rookie cards. What do you guys think?
healthy embiid has a chance to be a superstar.  He apparently has three point range. I've seen multiple so-called experts say that when healthy he compares favorably to Karl towns.   I'm pretty interested to see what happens with him.   Too bad he's not playing in Boston. Dude seems like an easy guy to root for. 

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #63 on: June 30, 2016, 01:34:04 AM »

Offline GetLucky

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Say what you want about "The Process," but I'm scared as anything about Embiid. The dude looks like a 7'2" Dwight Howard and had two years to work on his shot.

As a basketball card collector, I'm looking at swooping up some of his autographs and rookie cards. What do you guys think?
healthy embiid has a chance to be a superstar.  He apparently has three point range. I've seen multiple so-called experts say that when healthy he compares favorably to Karl towns.   I'm pretty interested to see what happens with him.   Too bad he's not playing in Boston. Dude seems like an easy guy to root for.

Yeah, I would have actually been okay with an Embiid-for-#3 swap if his medicals were okayed by Danny and the C's doctors. Embiid has been playing 3-on-3 and dunking, and he just got cleared for 5-on-5 today. He's also talking a lot of smack on Twitter, which is a good sign of confidence in his foot/back.

The dude still makes you drool with his size and agility, not to mention his skill and athleticism.

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #64 on: June 30, 2016, 01:36:04 AM »

Offline MBunge

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Try OKC

They sucked ass for 3 years, and have been in contention ever since. Boom. No one ****es about how bad they were. They pretty much did exactly what Philly did they just did it with more efficiency and better luck.

If anyone is wondering why this argument keeps going, I do it because people keep saying things that aren't true and I don't want people to be misled.  OKC did not do what Philly has done.  They did not tank to get Durant.  They did tank the next year and wound up with Westbrook wasn't a top two pick and no one thought he was going to be as good as he is.  They did not tank the year after that but still got lucky again by getting Harden.

Good luck is great when it happens.  Betting the future of an NBA franchise on luck is dumb.

Mike

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #65 on: June 30, 2016, 01:40:45 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Say what you want about "The Process," but I'm scared as anything about Embiid. The dude looks like a 7'2" Dwight Howard and had two years to work on his shot.

As a basketball card collector, I'm looking at swooping up some of his autographs and rookie cards. What do you guys think?
healthy embiid has a chance to be a superstar.  He apparently has three point range. I've seen multiple so-called experts say that when healthy he compares favorably to Karl towns.   I'm pretty interested to see what happens with him.   Too bad he's not playing in Boston. Dude seems like an easy guy to root for.

Yeah, I would have actually been okay with an Embiid-for-#3 swap if his medicals were okayed by Danny and the C's doctors. Embiid has been playing 3-on-3 and dunking, and he just got cleared for 5-on-5 today. He's also talking a lot of smack on Twitter, which is a good sign of confidence in his foot/back.

The dude still makes you drool with his size and agility, not to mention his skill and athleticism.
hes also pretty hilarious.  His running gag about drinking Shirley temples is a riot.  In an interview he joked that he drinks several pitchers per day and the media ran with it. 

Honestly, I'd be pretty happy to see Philly stay in the dumps indefinitely, but I'm rooting for embiid to get healthy and have a career.  It will probably be like when the sonics moved to Oklahoma and I kept rooting for durant while rooting against the team.   

All I know is, as a fan of the NBA, I'll definitely make time next season to watch Embiid's debut.  I'm curious to see how that roster shapes out and how they piece everything together over the next 5 months. 

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #66 on: June 30, 2016, 01:45:46 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Try OKC

They sucked ass for 3 years, and have been in contention ever since. Boom. No one ****es about how bad they were. They pretty much did exactly what Philly did they just did it with more efficiency and better luck.

If anyone is wondering why this argument keeps going, I do it because people keep saying things that aren't true and I don't want people to be misled.  OKC did not do what Philly has done.  They did not tank to get Durant.  They did tank the next year and wound up with Westbrook wasn't a top two pick and no one thought he was going to be as good as he is.  They did not tank the year after that but still got lucky again by getting Harden.

Good luck is great when it happens.  Betting the future of an NBA franchise on luck is dumb.

Mike
who cares how many years they tanked.   The clips sucked for two decades but as soon as Blake griffin was dunking on people's faces nobody gave a crap about how long the clips were terrible or how griffin missed his rookie season with an injury.

Really, if philly proves to be one the most exciting young teams in the league next season thanks to Simmons, embiid, etc - the only people clinging to the "... But... But... They tanked!!" will be the disgruntled forum fans who are jealous of the next 15 years of basketball Philly gets to watch. 

The Bulls were a perpetual bottom-feeder for 6 years after Jordan retired.   They won 13, 17, 15, 21, 30 and 23 games.  Do you think anyone gave a crap about that when D-Rose was leading one of the most exciting teams in the NBA? 

Philly has missed the playoffs for 4 years.  It doesn't matter at all.  If their plan proves to be successful, the ends will justify the means.

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #67 on: June 30, 2016, 01:48:12 AM »

Offline MBunge

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The golden prize = Ben Simmons... a potentially transcendent player.  That was the point all along. 

And the reason Philly got Simmons instead of Boston?  Pure luck.  Three years of some of the worst basketball ever seen in the history of the NBA...and their entire plan STILL hinged on pure luck.

That's not smart.  That's stupid.  Even if it works.

Mike
Yes.  Luck.  Which is why doing it for multi years made a huge difference.  You bottom out long enough you'll eventually land a superstar.   Only took Philly 3 years and they might have two of em.  That's a wild success.  That's exactly what Philly set out to do when they hired hinkie.

And no, the losing is not going to matter at all long term.

1.  That's like saying you'll win the lottery if you just keep playing long enough.  It's mathematically illiterate.

2.  Philly might have no superstars.  Simmons could just as easily be some version of Michael Beasley or Lamar Odom as LeBron.  Embiid might never play a game.  They just tried to trade Noel or Okafor and no one was willing to even approach the asking price.

3.  Philly isn't getting a sit down with Durant.  Boston is.  Why?  Because they suck and we don't.  Will that change if Philly stops sucking?  Sure.  And how long is that going to take?  Another two or three years just to get to where Boston is right now?  And how many opportunities will they lose out on because they suck?

After three years of "The Process," Boston is closer to winning a title than Philly is to winning 30 games.

Mike
I love bostons situation. We are in great shape.   If they land durant, they obviously are in better shape than philly.

Philly is in beautiful position as well.  You don't seem to understand what is happening there.  I'm fine with that.  Maybe eventually you will.  Plenty of time and the process is still in the infancy.  We will see eventually whether or not it was successful.   Should have some strong hints one way or the other next season whether Hinkie's tenure was worth it.  So far, it seems it was.

Doesn't seem like it was worth it to Philly ownership.  Sure doesn't seem like it was worth it to Hinkie.

I have to admit that the invincible fortress of foolishness you've constructed around your Hinkie-love is impressive, in an adolescent sort of way.  It's truly impossible to argue with nonsense like your faith that everything in Philly is still going according to Hinkie's plan even though Hinkie not only quit, he publicly and pretty specifically stated that he was quitting because they weren't following his plan anymore.

Mike

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #68 on: June 30, 2016, 02:01:28 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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The golden prize = Ben Simmons... a potentially transcendent player.  That was the point all along. 

And the reason Philly got Simmons instead of Boston?  Pure luck.  Three years of some of the worst basketball ever seen in the history of the NBA...and their entire plan STILL hinged on pure luck.

That's not smart.  That's stupid.  Even if it works.

Mike
Yes.  Luck.  Which is why doing it for multi years made a huge difference.  You bottom out long enough you'll eventually land a superstar.   Only took Philly 3 years and they might have two of em.  That's a wild success.  That's exactly what Philly set out to do when they hired hinkie.

And no, the losing is not going to matter at all long term.

1.  That's like saying you'll win the lottery if you just keep playing long enough.  It's mathematically illiterate.

2.  Philly might have no superstars.  Simmons could just as easily be some version of Michael Beasley or Lamar Odom as LeBron.  Embiid might never play a game.  They just tried to trade Noel or Okafor and no one was willing to even approach the asking price.

3.  Philly isn't getting a sit down with Durant.  Boston is.  Why?  Because they suck and we don't.  Will that change if Philly stops sucking?  Sure.  And how long is that going to take?  Another two or three years just to get to where Boston is right now?  And how many opportunities will they lose out on because they suck?

After three years of "The Process," Boston is closer to winning a title than Philly is to winning 30 games.

Mike
I love bostons situation. We are in great shape.   If they land durant, they obviously are in better shape than philly.

Philly is in beautiful position as well.  You don't seem to understand what is happening there.  I'm fine with that.  Maybe eventually you will.  Plenty of time and the process is still in the infancy.  We will see eventually whether or not it was successful.   Should have some strong hints one way or the other next season whether Hinkie's tenure was worth it.  So far, it seems it was.

Doesn't seem like it was worth it to Philly ownership.  Sure doesn't seem like it was worth it to Hinkie.

I have to admit that the invincible fortress of foolishness you've constructed around your Hinkie-love is impressive, in an adolescent sort of way.  It's truly impossible to argue with nonsense like your faith that everything in Philly is still going according to Hinkie's plan even though Hinkie not only quit, he publicly and pretty specifically stated that he was quitting because they weren't following his plan anymore.

Mike
I've said multiple times, I never cared about Hinkie.   It was Philly's plan.  They stuck with it for a few years and landed what everyone considers to be a superstar prospect.  If Ben Simmons becomes the player everyone expects him to be, it will have justified everything Philly did.  As soon as that lotto pick landed #1, it basically ended this discussion as far as I'm concerned.   

You think Philly would rather erase the last 3 years and take back Jrue Holiday and a bag of chips?  Heh.  Fat chance.  Pretty confident ownership is giddy with how this has turned out.  They are on the verge of being a pretty hot ticket.

I'll say, Mike, that I don't disagree with your general premise.  You're disgusted that Philly was able to do this.  I get your point.  It almost feels like it's circumventing the rules and killing the spirit of competitive sports if a team is intentionally trying to lose.   I totally understand that point of view.  You see it as disgraceful - and it obviously clouds your perception of everything going on with Philly.  I don't blame you for being disgusted with what Philly did.  I don't blame you for throwing that disgust at a single person (Hinkie)... but the fact is, Philly supported the move  and the dirty lil non-secret is that as long as the NBA incentivizes losing with prizes like Ben Simmons, you can't really fault Philly for doing what they did.  They certainly weren't the first team to try to intentionally lose games with hopes of a superstar prize.  Our very own Celtics did it twice unsuccessfully, though they didn't commit to sticking with it for 3 years until they actually landed a prize.

I fully support the strategy.  The only way to the top in this league is the land superstars.  Something like 70% of them are taken at the top of the draft and others are received via trade using top draft picks.   Teams can stay in the middle of the pack peaking out with their little Lowry/Derozan 56 win teams or Horford/Millisap 60 win teams - but at the end of the day it'll be the LeBrons of the world raising that trophy.  That's the way it has always been and that's the way it will always be.  It's a superstar's game.  So kudos to Philly give giving it a big swing and investing 3 years into trying to get one.   Whether or not Embiid, Okafor, Saric, Noel or Simmons ends up being that guy remains to be seen.  But now that the dirty part is over with, it sure will be interesting to see if it worked out. 

Meanwhile, I suggest you direct your anger at the NBA and the lottery process.   It's a systemic problem.  The more people make a bigger deal out of Hinkie, the more biting and cutting it will be if this entire plan proves to be successful... it will essentially turn Hinkie into a bigger martyr than he already is to Philly fans and keep the focus on how well excessive tanking works.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2016, 02:08:52 AM by LarBrd33 »

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #69 on: June 30, 2016, 02:22:26 AM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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The golden prize = Ben Simmons... a potentially transcendent player.  That was the point all along. 

And the reason Philly got Simmons instead of Boston?  Pure luck.  Three years of some of the worst basketball ever seen in the history of the NBA...and their entire plan STILL hinged on pure luck.

That's not smart.  That's stupid.  Even if it works.

Mike
Yes.  Luck.  Which is why doing it for multi years made a huge difference.  You bottom out long enough you'll eventually land a superstar.   Only took Philly 3 years and they might have two of em.  That's a wild success.  That's exactly what Philly set out to do when they hired hinkie.

And no, the losing is not going to matter at all long term.

1.  That's like saying you'll win the lottery if you just keep playing long enough.  It's mathematically illiterate.

2.  Philly might have no superstars.  Simmons could just as easily be some version of Michael Beasley or Lamar Odom as LeBron.  Embiid might never play a game.  They just tried to trade Noel or Okafor and no one was willing to even approach the asking price.

3.  Philly isn't getting a sit down with Durant.  Boston is.  Why?  Because they suck and we don't.  Will that change if Philly stops sucking?  Sure.  And how long is that going to take?  Another two or three years just to get to where Boston is right now?  And how many opportunities will they lose out on because they suck?

After three years of "The Process," Boston is closer to winning a title than Philly is to winning 30 games.

Mike
I love bostons situation. We are in great shape.   If they land durant, they obviously are in better shape than philly.

Philly is in beautiful position as well.  You don't seem to understand what is happening there.  I'm fine with that.  Maybe eventually you will.  Plenty of time and the process is still in the infancy.  We will see eventually whether or not it was successful.   Should have some strong hints one way or the other next season whether Hinkie's tenure was worth it.  So far, it seems it was.

Doesn't seem like it was worth it to Philly ownership.  Sure doesn't seem like it was worth it to Hinkie.

I have to admit that the invincible fortress of foolishness you've constructed around your Hinkie-love is impressive, in an adolescent sort of way.  It's truly impossible to argue with nonsense like your faith that everything in Philly is still going according to Hinkie's plan even though Hinkie not only quit, he publicly and pretty specifically stated that he was quitting because they weren't following his plan anymore.

Mike
I've said multiple times, I never cared about Hinkie.   It was Philly's plan.  They stuck with it for a few years and landed what everyone considers to be a superstar prospect.  If Ben Simmons becomes the player everyone expects him to be, it will have justified everything Philly did.  As soon as that lotto pick landed #1, it basically ended this discussion as far as I'm concerned.   

You think Philly would rather erase the last 3 years and take back Jrue Holiday and a bag of chips?  Heh.  Fat chance.  Pretty confident ownership is giddy with how this has turned out.  They are on the verge of being a pretty hot ticket.

I'll say, Mike, that I don't disagree with your general premise.  You're disgusted that Philly was able to do this.  I get your point.  It almost feels like it's circumventing the rules and killing the spirit of competitive sports if a team is intentionally trying to lose.   I totally understand that point of view.  You see it as disgraceful - and it obviously clouds your perception of everything going on with Philly.  I don't blame you for being disgusted with what Philly did.  I don't blame you for throwing that disgust at a single person (Hinkie)... but the fact is, Philly supported the move  and the dirty lil non-secret is that as long as the NBA incentivizes losing with prizes like Ben Simmons, you can't really fault Philly for doing what they did.  They certainly weren't the first team to try to intentionally lose games with hopes of a superstar prize.  Our very own Celtics did it twice unsuccessfully, though they didn't commit to sticking with it for 3 years until they actually landed a prize.

I fully support the strategy.  The only way to the top in this league is the land superstars.  Something like 70% of them are taken at the top of the draft and others are received via trade using top draft picks.   Teams can stay in the middle of the pack peaking out with their little Lowry/Derozan 56 win teams or Horford/Millisap 60 win teams - but at the end of the day it'll be the LeBrons of the world raising that trophy.  That's the way it has always been and that's the way it will always be.  It's a superstar's game.  So kudos to Philly give giving it a big swing and investing 3 years into trying to get one.   Whether or not Embiid, Okafor, Saric, Noel or Simmons ends up being that guy remains to be seen.  But now that the dirty part is over with, it sure will be interesting to see if it worked out. 

Meanwhile, I suggest you direct your anger at the NBA and the lottery process.   It's a systemic problem.  The more people make a bigger deal out of Hinkie, the more biting and cutting it will be if this entire plan proves to be successful... it will essentially turn Hinkie into a bigger martyr than he already is to Philly fans and keep the focus on how well excessive tanking works.
I've long hoped for Philly to fail horribly not just because I think what they did is a disgrace to basketball and was just disgusting, but because if it works -- if Ben Simmons and Embiid evolve into a what coulda been Penny Hardaway/Shaq combo and Philly starts winning rings more and more teams will start these multi year suck projects and that would really suck for the sport. However if that happens the NBA would be forced to address tanking which would be good in theory but I'm not sure there's a really good solution to be made.

Ultimately I'll continue to hope it all fails in Philly so hopefully Philly can stand as a warning to all teams considering a multi-year tankfest.

This is also why I was delighted when Hinkie was fired because it was a reminder that he who sucks to get the stars rarely is around to cash in on them. I'll be surprised if Brown makes it to the playoffs before getting canned, but who knows?

If Brown and Hinkie get fired before they see the fruits of their labor that could make other inventive GMs more wary of captaining tank missions.
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #70 on: June 30, 2016, 02:33:04 AM »

Online celticsclay

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Hinkie did what Philly's ownership asked him to do

You're going to give Hinkie all the credit if Philly is a powerhouse three years from now.  Don't try and divert the blame because it looks bad right now.

Mike

There's no "blame" to go around.  What they have done is amazing.   They have a chance to be a really special team.   Opinions could change a year from now, but right now it's hard to look at Philly and not be overwhelmingly impressed.   The talent they have amassed via "the process" is nothing short of incredible.   As a fan of the sport, I'm super interested to see how it all pans out for them.  They are in beautiful position right now.

Okafor and Noel are being offered around the league for a bag of balls
"Bag of balls" = #3 pick?  Have more respect for our finest asset.

This offer, along with two other first rounders and a role player was turned down. That is pretty crap value that wouldn't get turned down for one of the best young big men prospects in the game.
Until I see Noel or Okafor traded for a bag of balls, I don't believe they have ballbag value.

Noel (last year of his rookie deal) was supposedly offered along with some filler for the #3 pick.   Boston supposedly turned that down - rightly so.  It wouldn't make sense for what Boston is trying to do this Summer and long-term.  OUr focus is on recruiting Durant and keeping our options open.  If we land Durant, our other free agent signing will be a center.  Why would we have traded the #3 pick for a center on the final year of his rookie deal?  That would have been foolish.   FWIW, Colangelo said the rumors were false and Philly fans deny that offer even happened.   

We'll see what happens.  Save your gloating for when Philly actually trades Noel or Okafor for pennies on the dollar.  Until then, it's just kinda silly to be celebrating something that never happened.  Last I heard, they might trade a for Ricky Rubio or Eric Bledsoe.  Either would make some sense. 

That Philly roster is still scary loaded.  I don't blame anyone for being intimidated.  Luckily, it should take them some time to dominate the league.

You mean like when you spent weeks gloating over the fact that you thought you had proved Boston tried to trade for Okafor at the deadline? hehe... have to kind of have laugh at this one old friend.

Classic you can't acknowledge this absurdity
ill acknowledge it.   We tried trading for okafor at the deadline. It's been reported.   What's your point?  The fact we didn't trade the #3 pick for okafor on draft day has nothing to do with that.  Sounds like philly was trying to trade us Noel.   We also had different goals heading into free agency than the trade deadline.  We still might end up trading for a Philly big if we fail to sign Dwight, Horford or whiteside.   Last I checked, okafor and Noel are still both on philly and teams are still showing interest in them.  Until I see one traded for pennies on the dollar, I'll continue to believe drafting them was the logical move.
your pretending to miss the point. You gloated for 3 weeks or so about a rumored trade for Okafor at the deadline as proof that Okafor had high value. I am gloating now that there are multiple sources saying the 76ers could not get a top 5 pick for Okafor, needed to throw
In a probably lottery pick with Noel to get a 3rd pick in a weak draft and that they have been unable to trade these guys. We are doing the exact same thing. It would be cool if you could admit the value on these guys is not as high as many, including myself, thought about a year ago. Noel has not developed and apparently the concerns on okafors defense and rebounding are shared by executives. I've come around on some of your views, but the occasional, yeah my bad, would go along way. You literally called them two of the best big men prospects in the game in this thread. To get Davis, towns, porzingas, Or Drummond it would take smart, brown, and all the nets picks. Okafor or Noel can't get the 3rd pick on their own.

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #71 on: June 30, 2016, 02:37:17 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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The golden prize = Ben Simmons... a potentially transcendent player.  That was the point all along. 

And the reason Philly got Simmons instead of Boston?  Pure luck.  Three years of some of the worst basketball ever seen in the history of the NBA...and their entire plan STILL hinged on pure luck.

That's not smart.  That's stupid.  Even if it works.

Mike
Yes.  Luck.  Which is why doing it for multi years made a huge difference.  You bottom out long enough you'll eventually land a superstar.   Only took Philly 3 years and they might have two of em.  That's a wild success.  That's exactly what Philly set out to do when they hired hinkie.

And no, the losing is not going to matter at all long term.

1.  That's like saying you'll win the lottery if you just keep playing long enough.  It's mathematically illiterate.

2.  Philly might have no superstars.  Simmons could just as easily be some version of Michael Beasley or Lamar Odom as LeBron.  Embiid might never play a game.  They just tried to trade Noel or Okafor and no one was willing to even approach the asking price.

3.  Philly isn't getting a sit down with Durant.  Boston is.  Why?  Because they suck and we don't.  Will that change if Philly stops sucking?  Sure.  And how long is that going to take?  Another two or three years just to get to where Boston is right now?  And how many opportunities will they lose out on because they suck?

After three years of "The Process," Boston is closer to winning a title than Philly is to winning 30 games.

Mike
I love bostons situation. We are in great shape.   If they land durant, they obviously are in better shape than philly.

Philly is in beautiful position as well.  You don't seem to understand what is happening there.  I'm fine with that.  Maybe eventually you will.  Plenty of time and the process is still in the infancy.  We will see eventually whether or not it was successful.   Should have some strong hints one way or the other next season whether Hinkie's tenure was worth it.  So far, it seems it was.

Doesn't seem like it was worth it to Philly ownership.  Sure doesn't seem like it was worth it to Hinkie.

I have to admit that the invincible fortress of foolishness you've constructed around your Hinkie-love is impressive, in an adolescent sort of way.  It's truly impossible to argue with nonsense like your faith that everything in Philly is still going according to Hinkie's plan even though Hinkie not only quit, he publicly and pretty specifically stated that he was quitting because they weren't following his plan anymore.

Mike
I've said multiple times, I never cared about Hinkie.   It was Philly's plan.  They stuck with it for a few years and landed what everyone considers to be a superstar prospect.  If Ben Simmons becomes the player everyone expects him to be, it will have justified everything Philly did.  As soon as that lotto pick landed #1, it basically ended this discussion as far as I'm concerned.   

You think Philly would rather erase the last 3 years and take back Jrue Holiday and a bag of chips?  Heh.  Fat chance.  Pretty confident ownership is giddy with how this has turned out.  They are on the verge of being a pretty hot ticket.

I'll say, Mike, that I don't disagree with your general premise.  You're disgusted that Philly was able to do this.  I get your point.  It almost feels like it's circumventing the rules and killing the spirit of competitive sports if a team is intentionally trying to lose.   I totally understand that point of view.  You see it as disgraceful - and it obviously clouds your perception of everything going on with Philly.  I don't blame you for being disgusted with what Philly did.  I don't blame you for throwing that disgust at a single person (Hinkie)... but the fact is, Philly supported the move  and the dirty lil non-secret is that as long as the NBA incentivizes losing with prizes like Ben Simmons, you can't really fault Philly for doing what they did.  They certainly weren't the first team to try to intentionally lose games with hopes of a superstar prize.  Our very own Celtics did it twice unsuccessfully, though they didn't commit to sticking with it for 3 years until they actually landed a prize.

I fully support the strategy.  The only way to the top in this league is the land superstars.  Something like 70% of them are taken at the top of the draft and others are received via trade using top draft picks.   Teams can stay in the middle of the pack peaking out with their little Lowry/Derozan 56 win teams or Horford/Millisap 60 win teams - but at the end of the day it'll be the LeBrons of the world raising that trophy.  That's the way it has always been and that's the way it will always be.  It's a superstar's game.  So kudos to Philly give giving it a big swing and investing 3 years into trying to get one.   Whether or not Embiid, Okafor, Saric, Noel or Simmons ends up being that guy remains to be seen.  But now that the dirty part is over with, it sure will be interesting to see if it worked out. 

Meanwhile, I suggest you direct your anger at the NBA and the lottery process.   It's a systemic problem.  The more people make a bigger deal out of Hinkie, the more biting and cutting it will be if this entire plan proves to be successful... it will essentially turn Hinkie into a bigger martyr than he already is to Philly fans and keep the focus on how well excessive tanking works.
I've long hoped for Philly to fail horribly not just because I think what they did is a disgrace to basketball and was just disgusting, but because if it works -- if Ben Simmons and Embiid evolve into a what coulda been Penny Hardaway/Shaq combo and Philly starts winning rings more and more teams will start these multi year suck projects and that would really suck for the sport. However if that happens the NBA would be forced to address tanking which would be good in theory but I'm not sure there's a really good solution to be made.

Ultimately I'll continue to hope it all fails in Philly so hopefully Philly can stand as a warning to all teams considering a multi-year tankfest.

This is also why I was delighted when Hinkie was fired because it was a reminder that he who sucks to get the stars rarely is around to cash in on them. I'll be surprised if Brown makes it to the playoffs before getting canned, but who knows?

If Brown and Hinkie get fired before they see the fruits of their labor that could make other inventive GMs more wary of captaining tank missions.

Sure, but does Philly firing Hinkie really matter?   They still finished the tankjob as intended.  They are still starting the phase of building a team, as intended.  Now they have a scapegoat for what happened there and they are still going to receive all the benefits of the tanking strategy that THEY signed off on.  As they enter free agency, they have the Colangelo's undoubtedly distancing themselves from Hinkie.  "No no, that was the old regime... this new regime is all about winning!", but frankly I think that's just as deplorable as the stuff fans are bellyaching about.   The fact that Philly has conned people around the league so thoroughly that thousands of threads like this exist on the internet where people place all the blame on Hinkie.  It's ridiculous.

It was Philly's plan.  They are Philly's assets.  If it's successfully, Philly will receive the benefit of it.  If Ben Simmons or Joel Embiid is a transcendent star, the value of that franchise increases and Philly's decision to let Hinkie tank for 3 years will have been entirely worth it. 

Usually the ML Carr company men who lead the tank don't survive.  Sure.  But I think to celebrate Hinkie's firing is entirely missing the point.  It was entirely missing the point when ignorant fans asked, "Think the NBA will take away Philly's lotto picks?" when the league "stepped in" to hire Colangelo.   

Let's put it like this.  Let's say I own a clothing company.  Let's say I hire a guy to manage the production process and he has the bright idea to cut costs by exploiting some legal loophole that allows out of country child labor.  I sign off on the process and give him a go-ahead to start cranking out hoodies in his factories.  Then after 3 years of cranking out product, there's a bunch of backlash about our methods - so I fire the manager and say, "it's all good now everyone... i fired that evil manager..." and then start selling the clothing as scheduled - reaping all of the profit in the process.  Why would you allow me to let that manager be the scapegoat?   Ya'll are gonna celebrate by bragging about how the manager got fired and got what was coming to him?  Really?   That's dumb.  Meanwhile, my hoodies are flying off the shelves and I buy myself a handful of yachts. 




Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #72 on: June 30, 2016, 02:42:28 AM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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The golden prize = Ben Simmons... a potentially transcendent player.  That was the point all along. 

And the reason Philly got Simmons instead of Boston?  Pure luck.  Three years of some of the worst basketball ever seen in the history of the NBA...and their entire plan STILL hinged on pure luck.

That's not smart.  That's stupid.  Even if it works.

Mike
Yes.  Luck.  Which is why doing it for multi years made a huge difference.  You bottom out long enough you'll eventually land a superstar.   Only took Philly 3 years and they might have two of em.  That's a wild success.  That's exactly what Philly set out to do when they hired hinkie.

And no, the losing is not going to matter at all long term.

1.  That's like saying you'll win the lottery if you just keep playing long enough.  It's mathematically illiterate.

2.  Philly might have no superstars.  Simmons could just as easily be some version of Michael Beasley or Lamar Odom as LeBron.  Embiid might never play a game.  They just tried to trade Noel or Okafor and no one was willing to even approach the asking price.

3.  Philly isn't getting a sit down with Durant.  Boston is.  Why?  Because they suck and we don't.  Will that change if Philly stops sucking?  Sure.  And how long is that going to take?  Another two or three years just to get to where Boston is right now?  And how many opportunities will they lose out on because they suck?

After three years of "The Process," Boston is closer to winning a title than Philly is to winning 30 games.

Mike
I love bostons situation. We are in great shape.   If they land durant, they obviously are in better shape than philly.

Philly is in beautiful position as well.  You don't seem to understand what is happening there.  I'm fine with that.  Maybe eventually you will.  Plenty of time and the process is still in the infancy.  We will see eventually whether or not it was successful.   Should have some strong hints one way or the other next season whether Hinkie's tenure was worth it.  So far, it seems it was.

Doesn't seem like it was worth it to Philly ownership.  Sure doesn't seem like it was worth it to Hinkie.

I have to admit that the invincible fortress of foolishness you've constructed around your Hinkie-love is impressive, in an adolescent sort of way.  It's truly impossible to argue with nonsense like your faith that everything in Philly is still going according to Hinkie's plan even though Hinkie not only quit, he publicly and pretty specifically stated that he was quitting because they weren't following his plan anymore.

Mike
I've said multiple times, I never cared about Hinkie.   It was Philly's plan.  They stuck with it for a few years and landed what everyone considers to be a superstar prospect.  If Ben Simmons becomes the player everyone expects him to be, it will have justified everything Philly did.  As soon as that lotto pick landed #1, it basically ended this discussion as far as I'm concerned.   

You think Philly would rather erase the last 3 years and take back Jrue Holiday and a bag of chips?  Heh.  Fat chance.  Pretty confident ownership is giddy with how this has turned out.  They are on the verge of being a pretty hot ticket.

I'll say, Mike, that I don't disagree with your general premise.  You're disgusted that Philly was able to do this.  I get your point.  It almost feels like it's circumventing the rules and killing the spirit of competitive sports if a team is intentionally trying to lose.   I totally understand that point of view.  You see it as disgraceful - and it obviously clouds your perception of everything going on with Philly.  I don't blame you for being disgusted with what Philly did.  I don't blame you for throwing that disgust at a single person (Hinkie)... but the fact is, Philly supported the move  and the dirty lil non-secret is that as long as the NBA incentivizes losing with prizes like Ben Simmons, you can't really fault Philly for doing what they did.  They certainly weren't the first team to try to intentionally lose games with hopes of a superstar prize.  Our very own Celtics did it twice unsuccessfully, though they didn't commit to sticking with it for 3 years until they actually landed a prize.

I fully support the strategy.  The only way to the top in this league is the land superstars.  Something like 70% of them are taken at the top of the draft and others are received via trade using top draft picks.   Teams can stay in the middle of the pack peaking out with their little Lowry/Derozan 56 win teams or Horford/Millisap 60 win teams - but at the end of the day it'll be the LeBrons of the world raising that trophy.  That's the way it has always been and that's the way it will always be.  It's a superstar's game.  So kudos to Philly give giving it a big swing and investing 3 years into trying to get one.   Whether or not Embiid, Okafor, Saric, Noel or Simmons ends up being that guy remains to be seen.  But now that the dirty part is over with, it sure will be interesting to see if it worked out. 

Meanwhile, I suggest you direct your anger at the NBA and the lottery process.   It's a systemic problem.  The more people make a bigger deal out of Hinkie, the more biting and cutting it will be if this entire plan proves to be successful... it will essentially turn Hinkie into a bigger martyr than he already is to Philly fans and keep the focus on how well excessive tanking works.
I've long hoped for Philly to fail horribly not just because I think what they did is a disgrace to basketball and was just disgusting, but because if it works -- if Ben Simmons and Embiid evolve into a what coulda been Penny Hardaway/Shaq combo and Philly starts winning rings more and more teams will start these multi year suck projects and that would really suck for the sport. However if that happens the NBA would be forced to address tanking which would be good in theory but I'm not sure there's a really good solution to be made.

Ultimately I'll continue to hope it all fails in Philly so hopefully Philly can stand as a warning to all teams considering a multi-year tankfest.

This is also why I was delighted when Hinkie was fired because it was a reminder that he who sucks to get the stars rarely is around to cash in on them. I'll be surprised if Brown makes it to the playoffs before getting canned, but who knows?

If Brown and Hinkie get fired before they see the fruits of their labor that could make other inventive GMs more wary of captaining tank missions.

Sure, but does Philly firing Hinkie really matter?   They still finished the tankjob as intended.  They are still starting the phase of building a team, as intended.  Now they have a scapegoat for what happened there and they are still going to receive all the benefits of the tanking strategy that THEY signed off on.  As they enter free agency, they have the Colangelo's undoubtedly distancing themselves from Hinkie.  "No no, that was the old regime... this new regime is all about winning!", but frankly I think that's just as deplorable as the stuff fans are bellyaching about.   The fact that Philly has conned people around the league so thoroughly that thousands of threads like this exist on the internet where people place all the blame on Hinkie.  It's ridiculous.

It was Philly's plan.  They are Philly's assets.  If it's successfully, Philly will receive the benefit of it.  If Ben Simmons or Joel Embiid is a transcendent star, the value of that franchise increases and Philly's decision to let Hinkie tank for 3 years will have been entirely worth it. 

Usually the ML Carr company men who lead the tank don't survive.  Sure.  But I think to celebrate Hinkie's firing is entirely missing the point.  It was entirely missing the point when ignorant fans asked, "Think the NBA will take away Philly's lotto picks?" when the league "stepped in" to hire Colangelo.   

Let's put it like this.  Let's say I own a clothing company.  Let's say I hire a guy to manage the process and he has the bright idea to cut costs by exploiting some legal loophole that allows out of country child labor.  I sign off on the process and give him a go-ahead.  Then after 3 years of cranking out product, there's a bunch of backlash about our methods - so I fire the manager and say, "it's all good now everyone... i fired that evil manager..." and then start selling the clothing as scheduled - reaping all of the profit in the process.  Why would you allow me to let that manager be the scapegoat?   Ya'll are gonna celebrate by bragging about how the manager got fired and got what was coming to him?  Really?   That's dumb.
No no no. My point is not that Hinkies firing is an indictment of the tank. It is more that I am hoping future managers will be more hesitant to play the Hinkie roll.

I mean yeah you have your shady businessman and he gets fired and publicly scorned then you use his work to profit. Another company is gonna look to do the same thing, but they are gonna have slightly more trouble finding someone to play that role. They'll probably find someone anyway, but I'd imagine it will make it harder which will ultimately dissuade some teams from embarking on the tank (hopefully).

I mean you seem to agree, don't you. Sam Hinkie did what was asked of him and he did it at an incredible level. The Noel trade was magnificent. I remember reading a few articles that talked about how incredibly committed Hinkie was and how much attention he paid to every imaginable detail. He got them 2 super talent and a handful more impressive ones (okafor and Noel are still [dang] good) and if Philly wins he'll be watching them on TV with the rest of us.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2016, 02:52:05 AM by Ilikesports17 »
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #73 on: June 30, 2016, 05:55:38 AM »

Offline meangreenmachine

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Hinkie is a BS artist of the highest degree. Kudos on somehow convincing management to put up with three years of historic failure in return for three centers who cannot play together and a potential all-star in Simmons. Imagine if they had not gotten lucky in this last lottery. The funniest part: A teenager with a mock draft guide each year could have produced the same end result.

It was interesting, but it was not genius execution by any means...
« Last Edit: June 30, 2016, 06:10:13 AM by meangreenmachine »

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #74 on: June 30, 2016, 08:54:50 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Try OKC

They sucked ass for 3 years, and have been in contention ever since. Boom. No one ****es about how bad they were. They pretty much did exactly what Philly did they just did it with more efficiency and better luck.

If anyone is wondering why this argument keeps going, I do it because people keep saying things that aren't true and I don't want people to be misled.  OKC did not do what Philly has done.  They did not tank to get Durant.  They did tank the next year and wound up with Westbrook wasn't a top two pick and no one thought he was going to be as good as he is.  They did not tank the year after that but still got lucky again by getting Harden.

Good luck is great when it happens.  Betting the future of an NBA franchise on luck is dumb.

Mike
OKC tanked for 2.5 year.  They traded away every single useful veteran for future assets and young players.  They absorbed players into their cap space for future picks as well.  They didn't sign a single free agent of any worth in that time period either.  I went through their history on here once and laid out every single move.  The real difference is that Kevin Durant was OKC's first pick (and was also a higher pick than any pick Philly had until Simmons) and he was pretty good immediately, and thus they weren't as bad because they had their future superstar immediately.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2016, 09:00:05 AM by Moranis »
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip