New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process

[MBunge]

Hinkie did what Philly's ownership asked him to do

That makes it sound like the owners decided they wanted to mega-tank and Hinkie, by complete coincidence, happened to be the guy they ordered to do it.

Perhaps I'm wrong but my understanding is that "The Process" was almost entirely a Hinkie conception.  HE wanted to tank and tank harder than any team had tanked before.  HE wanted to strip the roster of anything resembling an NBA player.  HE wanted to draft a hurt Noel, a hurt Embiid and Okafor, despite them all playing the same position. And HE is the one who quit when he felt that HIS vision was no longer going to exclusively guide Philly's rebuild.

You're going to give Hinkie all the credit if Philly is a powerhouse three years from now.  Don't try and divert the blame because it looks bad right now.

Mike

It is well documented that Hinkie laid out two courses of action in his interview.

Which confirms exactly what I stated.  HINKIE is the one who proposed the mega-tank.  Did the owners embrace it?  Sure, but it was HINKIE's idea and it's fair to say that no other GM would have proposed it because no one ever tanked anywhere close to this hard before.

This isn't debatable.

Mike

I love how degrees of tanking somehow matter.

After two years of tanking, Philly had essentially 2 and 1/2 legitimate NBA starters on their active roster (Noel, Okafor and Covington) this past season.  I don't think there's anything even close to that ever in the history of the NBA and sports in general.  Boston won more games last season than Philly won the previous three seasons COMBINED.

Yes, being THAT bad for THAT long matters.

Mike

[MBunge]

This board is delusional, Hinkie made two bad moves: picking Okafor and not grabbing an ok PG in the draft or FA. Look at Danny Ainge's recent history in the draft and get back to me. He's playing the same game as the Sixers but with lower upside young players.

So, when is Philly getting its meetings with Howard, Horford and Durant?

Mike

[tarheelsxxiii]

Having a deja vu experience here... almost as if this conversation has already taken place before (among the same individuals) maybe once or twice.

[sirnastee]

I'm surprised that there hasn't been more talk about a conspiracy with sixers getting the first pick.  So, as people mentioned here before, Silver stepped in to ask the sixers owners for a regime change.  Then, Dikembe tweets before the draft, congratulating the sixers on the first pick of the draft...   

[NHHillbilly]

Hinkie did what Philly's ownership asked him to do... acquire assets and swing for the fences via the draft.   It might have worked.  Jury is still out.   BUt fact is, if Simmons and Embiid are as great as expected, they are able to sign some free agents, and are able to get some value out of one of the redundant bigs - "the process" will have been a success.   Really, all they need for it to be a success is for one player to become a superstar.  They have a couple candidates.

What if one player, say Simmons, becomes a league MVP, is as good as Derrick Rose was.  But maybe like Rose, he gets hurt.  If it is only one player, then your franchise is very fragile.  Red Auerbach said no-one will every win the number of championships in a row that Russell and the Celtics did:  because of the modern game and injuries.  No one will be healthy for years in a row.  Sometimes it is a hurt star, sometimes even a hurt role player (Kenderick Perkins) can tip the balance to another team. 
So Hinke played it like a game, but real life has injuries, addictions, and the cultural effects of losing.  Basketball winning comes from real life, not just the numbers game.

[LarBrd33]

The golden prize = Ben Simmons... a potentially transcendent player.  That was the point all along. 

And the reason Philly got Simmons instead of Boston?  Pure luck.  Three years of some of the worst basketball ever seen in the history of the NBA...and their entire plan STILL hinged on pure luck.

That's not smart.  That's stupid.  Even if it works.

Mike

Yes.  Luck.  Which is why doing it for multi years made a huge difference.  You bottom out long enough you'll eventually land a superstar.   Only took Philly 3 years and they might have two of em.  That's a wild success.  That's exactly what Philly set out to do when they hired hinkie.

And no, the losing is not going to matter at all long term.  You seem to think it's going to have lasting effects.  You even suggested that free agents will avoid Philly.   You don't get it.   Free agents that want a role and want money will consider philly.  The stink of hinkie could be gone within a week if Philly's young guys impress.   Does anyone look at the Cavs right now and scoff about how they are such a garbage team they ended up with the #1 pick in 3 out of 4 years?  Nope. Sports fans only care about the present - which is why some people didn't get what hinkie was doing. 

[LarBrd33]

Hinkie did what Philly's ownership asked him to do... acquire assets and swing for the fences via the draft.   It might have worked.  Jury is still out.   BUt fact is, if Simmons and Embiid are as great as expected, they are able to sign some free agents, and are able to get some value out of one of the redundant bigs - "the process" will have been a success.   Really, all they need for it to be a success is for one player to become a superstar.  They have a couple candidates.

What if one player, say Simmons, becomes a league MVP, is as good as Derrick Rose was.  But maybe like Rose, he gets hurt.  If it is only one player, then your franchise is very fragile.  Red Auerbach said no-one will every win the number of championships in a row that Russell and the Celtics did:  because of the modern game and injuries.  No one will be healthy for years in a row.  Sometimes it is a hurt star, sometimes even a hurt role player (Kenderick Perkins) can tip the balance to another team. 
So Hinke played it like a game, but real life has injuries, addictions, and the cultural effects of losing.  Basketball winning comes from real life, not just the numbers game.

So your concern is that they might get their superstar and he might get injured?  Ok...

First of all, rose is one of the most overrated players in history.  He was never an MVP level player despite his undeserved award.   Despite that, they were a contender that year - and that's the entire point.  You need a superstar to be a contender in this league.  Lebron James is the difference between an automatic trip to the finals and a trip to the lottery.   The difference between a 20-30 win team and a 60+ win team. 

Philly understood that.  Philly also understood that something like 75% of the top 10 players in the league are taken at the top of the draft.   So since that's the most statistically likely path towards landing a superstar, you might as well bottom out until you get one. 

They tanked for a few years and whattayaknow - some believe they have two superstar prospects on their team.  It may indeed all prove to be worth it.  A sound strategy was rewarded. 

It could still fail.  As a Celtic fan, I hope to see it fail.  But you gotta respect that they saw a system that encouraged losing and took advantage of it.  Part of me thinks it will be a good thing if philly becomes a contender due to this because perhaps the NBA will do something about their system that has long encouraged tanking for middle of the road teams.   The alternative for philly would have been to build around jrue holiday and stay in the middle-of-the-road no-mans land.   Hinkie was prepared to take that path.  That isn't what Philly wanted.  Philly wanted this.   Seems they made the wise decision. Very few teams have as bright a future as the 76ers.   They can throw whoever they want under the bus as a PR move as they head into free agency, but folks following what's happening there know they must be pleased as punch with the results of their process so far. 

[LarBrd33]

This board is delusional, Hinkie made two bad moves: picking Okafor and not grabbing an ok PG in the draft or FA. Look at Danny Ainge's recent history in the draft and get back to me. He's playing the same game as the Sixers but with lower upside young players.

So, when is Philly getting its meetings with Howard, Horford and Durant?

Mike

You backpeddling, Mike?  The other day you said only 4th or 5th string free agents will go to Philly.  Now it's a failure unless they sign Durant?  C'mon.

Player agents who shrugged off the Sixers as former general manager Sam Hinkie nursed the franchise through the slow-build movement, dubbed "The Process," now have new GM Bryan Colangelo on speed dial.

'By all indications, they're going to be aggressive, and I think once you get past that first tier of free agents, you are going to have a perfect storm in Philadelphia that is going to make players want to go there,' another agent told SN. 'Brett Brown is a good coach. They've got money. They've got playing time available. I mean, it couldn't be a more different situation than what we're used to.'

...

'I've got guys who tell me they want to going there,' the first agent told SN. 'I mean, excited to go there. It's a different approach.'

They got something like 70 million in cap space and plenty of minutes to hand out... they should be able to add to that impressive young core.   They need to spend boatloads of money just to come up to the salary floor.

So add some decent vets to the Simmons, Okafor, Noel, Saric, Embiid, core... swing a trade for a guard, and build off that foundation. 

[celticsclay]

Hinkie did what Philly's ownership asked him to do

You're going to give Hinkie all the credit if Philly is a powerhouse three years from now.  Don't try and divert the blame because it looks bad right now.

Mike

There's no "blame" to go around.  What they have done is amazing.   They have a chance to be a really special team.   Opinions could change a year from now, but right now it's hard to look at Philly and not be overwhelmingly impressed.   The talent they have amassed via "the process" is nothing short of incredible.   As a fan of the sport, I'm super interested to see how it all pans out for them.  They are in beautiful position right now.

Okafor and Noel are being offered around the league for a bag of balls

"Bag of balls" = #3 pick?  Have more respect for our finest asset.

This offer, along with two other first rounders and a role player was turned down. That is pretty crap value that wouldn't get turned down for one of the best young big men prospects in the game.

Until I see Noel or Okafor traded for a bag of balls, I don't believe they have ballbag value.

Noel (last year of his rookie deal) was supposedly offered along with some filler for the #3 pick.   Boston supposedly turned that down - rightly so.  It wouldn't make sense for what Boston is trying to do this Summer and long-term.  OUr focus is on recruiting Durant and keeping our options open.  If we land Durant, our other free agent signing will be a center.  Why would we have traded the #3 pick for a center on the final year of his rookie deal?  That would have been foolish.   FWIW, Colangelo said the rumors were false and Philly fans deny that offer even happened.   

We'll see what happens.  Save your gloating for when Philly actually trades Noel or Okafor for pennies on the dollar.  Until then, it's just kinda silly to be celebrating something that never happened.  Last I heard, they might trade a for Ricky Rubio or Eric Bledsoe.  Either would make some sense. 

That Philly roster is still scary loaded.  I don't blame anyone for being intimidated.  Luckily, it should take them some time to dominate the league.

You mean like when you spent weeks gloating over the fact that you thought you had proved Boston tried to trade for Okafor at the deadline? hehe... have to kind of have laugh at this one old friend.

Classic you can't acknowledge this absurdity

[RockinRyA]

The golden prize = Ben Simmons... a potentially transcendent player.  That was the point all along. 

And the reason Philly got Simmons instead of Boston?  Pure luck.  Three years of some of the worst basketball ever seen in the history of the NBA...and their entire plan STILL hinged on pure luck.

That's not smart.  That's stupid.  Even if it works.

Mike

Yes.  Luck.  Which is why doing it for multi years made a huge difference.  You bottom out long enough you'll eventually land a superstar.   Only took Philly 3 years and they might have two of em.  That's a wild success.  That's exactly what Philly set out to do when they hired hinkie.

And no, the losing is not going to matter at all long term.  You seem to think it's going to have lasting effects.  You even suggested that free agents will avoid Philly.   You don't get it.   Free agents that want a role and want money will consider philly.  The stink of hinkie could be gone within a week if Philly's young guys impress.   Does anyone look at the Cavs right now and scoff about how they are such a garbage team they ended up with the #1 pick in 3 out of 4 years?  Nope. Sports fans only care about the present - which is why some people didn't get what hinkie was doing.

Uhmmm the Cavs getting the #1 pick wasnt about being a garbage team. It has more to do with being a decent team, having an oft injured star with great lottery luck. Cleveland didn't try to tank, that is the difference with between them and Philly. When healthy that Cavs team is a borderline playoff team (in the East at least)

[Ilikesports17]

The golden prize = Ben Simmons... a potentially transcendent player.  That was the point all along. 

And the reason Philly got Simmons instead of Boston?  Pure luck.  Three years of some of the worst basketball ever seen in the history of the NBA...and their entire plan STILL hinged on pure luck.

That's not smart.  That's stupid.  Even if it works.

Mike

Yes.  Luck.  Which is why doing it for multi years made a huge difference.  You bottom out long enough you'll eventually land a superstar.   Only took Philly 3 years and they might have two of em.  That's a wild success.  That's exactly what Philly set out to do when they hired hinkie.

And no, the losing is not going to matter at all long term.  You seem to think it's going to have lasting effects.  You even suggested that free agents will avoid Philly.   You don't get it.   Free agents that want a role and want money will consider philly.  The stink of hinkie could be gone within a week if Philly's young guys impress.   Does anyone look at the Cavs right now and scoff about how they are such a garbage team they ended up with the #1 pick in 3 out of 4 years?  Nope. Sports fans only care about the present - which is why some people didn't get what hinkie was doing.

Uhmmm the Cavs getting the #1 pick wasnt about being a garbage team. It has more to do with being a decent team, having an oft injured star with great lottery luck. Cleveland didn't try to tank, that is the difference with between them and Philly. When healthy that Cavs team is a borderline playoff team (in the East at least)

The Wiggins (Love) pick came from them having the 9th lotto odds
Irving came from the 8th lotto odds(traded pick)
Bennett(3rd best odds/ #1 pick) and Thompson(1/4) were the fruits of "Tanking". All that wouldnt matter if one of the greatest basketball players of all time wasnt born down the street.

theres plenty of logical ways to defend the tank operation. Cleveland is not one of em.

Try OKC

They sucked ass for 3 years, and have been in contention ever since. Boom. No one ****es about how bad they were. They pretty much did exactly what Philly did they just did it with more efficiency and better luck.

[Ilikesports17]

Hinkie did what Philly's ownership asked him to do... acquire assets and swing for the fences via the draft.   It might have worked.  Jury is still out.   BUt fact is, if Simmons and Embiid are as great as expected, they are able to sign some free agents, and are able to get some value out of one of the redundant bigs - "the process" will have been a success.   Really, all they need for it to be a success is for one player to become a superstar.  They have a couple candidates.

What if one player, say Simmons, becomes a league MVP, is as good as Derrick Rose was.  But maybe like Rose, he gets hurt.  If it is only one player, then your franchise is very fragile.  Red Auerbach said no-one will every win the number of championships in a row that Russell and the Celtics did:  because of the modern game and injuries.  No one will be healthy for years in a row.  Sometimes it is a hurt star, sometimes even a hurt role player (Kenderick Perkins) can tip the balance to another team. 
So Hinke played it like a game, but real life has injuries, addictions, and the cultural effects of losing.  Basketball winning comes from real life, not just the numbers game.

So your concern is that they might get their superstar and he might get injured?  Ok...

First of all, rose is one of the most overrated players in history.  He was never an MVP level player despite his undeserved award.   Despite that, they were a contender that year - and that's the entire point.  You need a superstar to be a contender in this league.  Lebron James is the difference between an automatic trip to the finals and a trip to the lottery.   The difference between a 20-30 win team and a 60+ win team. 

Philly understood that.  Philly also understood that something like 75% of the top 10 players in the league are taken at the top of the draft.   So since that's the most statistically likely path towards landing a superstar, you might as well bottom out until you get one. 

They tanked for a few years and whattayaknow - some believe they have two superstar prospects on their team.  It may indeed all prove to be worth it.  A sound strategy was rewarded. 

It could still fail.  As a Celtic fan, I hope to see it fail.  But you gotta respect that they saw a system that encouraged losing and took advantage of it.  Part of me thinks it will be a good thing if philly becomes a contender due to this because perhaps the NBA will do something about their system that has long encouraged tanking for middle of the road teams.   The alternative for philly would have been to build around jrue holiday and stay in the middle-of-the-road no-mans land.   Hinkie was prepared to take that path.  That isn't what Philly wanted.  Philly wanted this.   Seems they made the wise decision. Very few teams have as bright a future as the 76ers.   They can throw whoever they want under the bus as a PR move as they head into free agency, but folks following what's happening there know they must be pleased as punch with the results of their process so far.

you might hope they have slightly less success than Boston but no way in hell do you hope that they fail.

[LarBrd33]

Hinkie did what Philly's ownership asked him to do... acquire assets and swing for the fences via the draft.   It might have worked.  Jury is still out.   BUt fact is, if Simmons and Embiid are as great as expected, they are able to sign some free agents, and are able to get some value out of one of the redundant bigs - "the process" will have been a success.   Really, all they need for it to be a success is for one player to become a superstar.  They have a couple candidates.

What if one player, say Simmons, becomes a league MVP, is as good as Derrick Rose was.  But maybe like Rose, he gets hurt.  If it is only one player, then your franchise is very fragile.  Red Auerbach said no-one will every win the number of championships in a row that Russell and the Celtics did:  because of the modern game and injuries.  No one will be healthy for years in a row.  Sometimes it is a hurt star, sometimes even a hurt role player (Kenderick Perkins) can tip the balance to another team. 
So Hinke played it like a game, but real life has injuries, addictions, and the cultural effects of losing.  Basketball winning comes from real life, not just the numbers game.

So your concern is that they might get their superstar and he might get injured?  Ok...

First of all, rose is one of the most overrated players in history.  He was never an MVP level player despite his undeserved award.   Despite that, they were a contender that year - and that's the entire point.  You need a superstar to be a contender in this league.  Lebron James is the difference between an automatic trip to the finals and a trip to the lottery.   The difference between a 20-30 win team and a 60+ win team. 

Philly understood that.  Philly also understood that something like 75% of the top 10 players in the league are taken at the top of the draft.   So since that's the most statistically likely path towards landing a superstar, you might as well bottom out until you get one. 

They tanked for a few years and whattayaknow - some believe they have two superstar prospects on their team.  It may indeed all prove to be worth it.  A sound strategy was rewarded. 

It could still fail.  As a Celtic fan, I hope to see it fail.  But you gotta respect that they saw a system that encouraged losing and took advantage of it.  Part of me thinks it will be a good thing if philly becomes a contender due to this because perhaps the NBA will do something about their system that has long encouraged tanking for middle of the road teams.   The alternative for philly would have been to build around jrue holiday and stay in the middle-of-the-road no-mans land.   Hinkie was prepared to take that path.  That isn't what Philly wanted.  Philly wanted this.   Seems they made the wise decision. Very few teams have as bright a future as the 76ers.   They can throw whoever they want under the bus as a PR move as they head into free agency, but folks following what's happening there know they must be pleased as punch with the results of their process so far.

you might hope they have slightly less success than Boston but no way in hell do you hope that they fail.

Sure I do.  I can root for Marcus to succeed while pointing out he's one of the least efficient scorers in the league.  I can root for philly to fail while pointing out their strategy has worked beautifully thus far.   What I observe and what I'm rooting for are two different things. 

[LarBrd33]

Hinkie did what Philly's ownership asked him to do

You're going to give Hinkie all the credit if Philly is a powerhouse three years from now.  Don't try and divert the blame because it looks bad right now.

Mike

There's no "blame" to go around.  What they have done is amazing.   They have a chance to be a really special team.   Opinions could change a year from now, but right now it's hard to look at Philly and not be overwhelmingly impressed.   The talent they have amassed via "the process" is nothing short of incredible.   As a fan of the sport, I'm super interested to see how it all pans out for them.  They are in beautiful position right now.

Okafor and Noel are being offered around the league for a bag of balls

"Bag of balls" = #3 pick?  Have more respect for our finest asset.

This offer, along with two other first rounders and a role player was turned down. That is pretty crap value that wouldn't get turned down for one of the best young big men prospects in the game.

Until I see Noel or Okafor traded for a bag of balls, I don't believe they have ballbag value.

Noel (last year of his rookie deal) was supposedly offered along with some filler for the #3 pick.   Boston supposedly turned that down - rightly so.  It wouldn't make sense for what Boston is trying to do this Summer and long-term.  OUr focus is on recruiting Durant and keeping our options open.  If we land Durant, our other free agent signing will be a center.  Why would we have traded the #3 pick for a center on the final year of his rookie deal?  That would have been foolish.   FWIW, Colangelo said the rumors were false and Philly fans deny that offer even happened.   

We'll see what happens.  Save your gloating for when Philly actually trades Noel or Okafor for pennies on the dollar.  Until then, it's just kinda silly to be celebrating something that never happened.  Last I heard, they might trade a for Ricky Rubio or Eric Bledsoe.  Either would make some sense. 

That Philly roster is still scary loaded.  I don't blame anyone for being intimidated.  Luckily, it should take them some time to dominate the league.

You mean like when you spent weeks gloating over the fact that you thought you had proved Boston tried to trade for Okafor at the deadline? hehe... have to kind of have laugh at this one old friend.

Classic you can't acknowledge this absurdity

ill acknowledge it.   We tried trading for okafor at the deadline. It's been reported.   What's your point?  The fact we didn't trade the #3 pick for okafor on draft day has nothing to do with that.  Sounds like philly was trying to trade us Noel.   We also had different goals heading into free agency than the trade deadline.  We still might end up trading for a Philly big if we fail to sign Dwight, Horford or whiteside.   Last I checked, okafor and Noel are still both on philly and teams are still showing interest in them.  Until I see one traded for pennies on the dollar, I'll continue to believe drafting them was the logical move.

[MBunge]

The golden prize = Ben Simmons... a potentially transcendent player.  That was the point all along. 

And the reason Philly got Simmons instead of Boston?  Pure luck.  Three years of some of the worst basketball ever seen in the history of the NBA...and their entire plan STILL hinged on pure luck.

That's not smart.  That's stupid.  Even if it works.

Mike

Yes.  Luck.  Which is why doing it for multi years made a huge difference.  You bottom out long enough you'll eventually land a superstar.   Only took Philly 3 years and they might have two of em.  That's a wild success.  That's exactly what Philly set out to do when they hired hinkie.

And no, the losing is not going to matter at all long term.

1.  That's like saying you'll win the lottery if you just keep playing long enough.  It's mathematically illiterate.

2.  Philly might have no superstars.  Simmons could just as easily be some version of Michael Beasley or Lamar Odom as LeBron.  Embiid might never play a game.  They just tried to trade Noel or Okafor and no one was willing to even approach the asking price.

3.  Philly isn't getting a sit down with Durant.  Boston is.  Why?  Because they suck and we don't.  Will that change if Philly stops sucking?  Sure.  And how long is that going to take?  Another two or three years just to get to where Boston is right now?  And how many opportunities will they lose out on because they suck?

After three years of "The Process," Boston is closer to winning a title than Philly is to winning 30 games.

Mike