Author Topic: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process  (Read 16386 times)

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Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2016, 07:46:28 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Hinkie did what Philly's ownership asked him to do

You're going to give Hinkie all the credit if Philly is a powerhouse three years from now.  Don't try and divert the blame because it looks bad right now.

Mike

There's no "blame" to go around.  What they have done is amazing.   They have a chance to be a really special team.   Opinions could change a year from now, but right now it's hard to look at Philly and not be overwhelmingly impressed.   The talent they have amassed via "the process" is nothing short of incredible.   As a fan of the sport, I'm super interested to see how it all pans out for them.  They are in beautiful position right now.

Isn't there only surefire top prospect right now Simmons? Okafor and Noel are being offered around the league for a bag of balls and Embiid hasn't shown he can play even 5 NBA games. What is so impressive with that to show for 3 years?

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2016, 07:50:13 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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I don't think I've seen anyone yet hypothesize that Hinkie did exactly what Philly wanted. That is, he executed his job well and was then canned as planned. It seems plausible that a team would bring in someone to do the dirty work and, once his job was complete (in their eyes), release the scapegoat.
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Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2016, 07:51:55 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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The process was fine in principle, in exucution Hinkie was to extreme. In the draft BPA is a must in the first 20 picks of the draft however taking this to the extreme where you draft a Center 3 years in a row is extreme. The other issue I had with Hinkie was the lack of potential placed on the court. If tanking is the plan then the team should be playing high potential players in key roles to promote growth. 76ers where often playing D-League level talent in prominent roles with little hope of ever being legit NBA rotational players.
There's a lot of reasons the narrative is so anti-Hinkie.

- Teams upset about them not attempting to get to the salary floor and the financial drag they were during the process

- Rival GM's mad at Hinkie's ruthless negotiation tactics

- Teams angry that they violated the spirit of the league by intentionally bottoming out and landing quality assets every single year

- Agents angry that they refused to pay a single penny for veteran talent

- Agents angry that 2nd rounders got locked into team-friendly deals

etc

People scoff at the method, but it was and remains a very sound strategy that has worked in the past.  The difference is that Hinkie shamelessly admitted they were tanking and was very transparent with everything - while subsequently not trying to educate the ignorant masses that didn't understand the strategy. 

Most fans in Philly get what Hinkie accomplished.  He's beloved there by the majority of fans and for good reason.   That team has tons of young talent now.  Embiid could end up a superstar.  Simmons could end up a superstar.  Okafor and Noel are two of the finest young big man prospects in the game.   Saric is apparently in the process of coming over finally.   They have something like 70 million dollars in cap space and you best believe free agents will be happy to take their money.  Perhaps not the top-tier talent, but as Jared Dudley recently said in his podcast with CLNS radio, the two main factors for free agents are #1 - Money and #2 - Role.  Philly will have plenty of money.  Whoever signs there will obviously have a role. 

Having followed this league my entire life I'm fairly confident that all the smug rabblerousers dumping on Hinkie will have nothing to say a year from now if things start moving forward for that team.   It was hard to keep making fun of the ineptness of the Clippers when they were suddenly one of the most exciting teams in the league.   Nobody is going to be whining about Hinkie if Ben SImmons and Joel Embiid are battling it out for Rookie of the Year. 

Things could still fail for them.  But they could also turn out really really great for them.  Don't be stunned if they trade for Ricky Rubio or something.  Don't be dumfounded if Mike Conley accepts a contract there.   Don't lose your mind if Harrison Barnes agrees to a max deal and Golden State doesn't match.  Don't be shocked if they fill out their roster with quality veteran talent (the Luol Deng types) who add some balance and maturity to that team.   

It's fine to gloat about how much they failed, but first wait to see if they failed.   We are at the very beginning of the expected next stage of the process.  Step 1:  Acquire tons of assets with ultimate goal of landing a superstar prospect.  Step 2:  Convert assets into a functioning basketball team.    This was going to happen with or without Hinkie on board.   We're right in the middle of the transition between Step 1 (a wild success) and Step 2... You can't claim they failed at Step 1 when they have Ben Simmons on that roster.  So if you're declaring Step 2 a failure, at least wait to see what happens in Step 2. 

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2016, 07:55:39 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Hinkie did what Philly's ownership asked him to do

You're going to give Hinkie all the credit if Philly is a powerhouse three years from now.  Don't try and divert the blame because it looks bad right now.

Mike

There's no "blame" to go around.  What they have done is amazing.   They have a chance to be a really special team.   Opinions could change a year from now, but right now it's hard to look at Philly and not be overwhelmingly impressed.   The talent they have amassed via "the process" is nothing short of incredible.   As a fan of the sport, I'm super interested to see how it all pans out for them.  They are in beautiful position right now.

Okafor and Noel are being offered around the league for a bag of balls
"Bag of balls" = #3 pick?  Have more respect for our finest asset.

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2016, 07:56:28 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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The process was fine in principle, in exucution Hinkie was to extreme. In the draft BPA is a must in the first 20 picks of the draft however taking this to the extreme where you draft a Center 3 years in a row is extreme. The other issue I had with Hinkie was the lack of potential placed on the court. If tanking is the plan then the team should be playing high potential players in key roles to promote growth. 76ers where often playing D-League level talent in prominent roles with little hope of ever being legit NBA rotational players.
There's a lot of reasons the narrative is so anti-Hinkie.

- Teams upset about them not attempting to get to the salary floor and the financial drag they were during the process

- Rival GM's mad at Hinkie's ruthless negotiation tactics

- Teams angry that they violated the spirit of the league by intentionally bottoming out and landing quality assets every single year

- Agents angry that they refused to pay a single penny for veteran talent

- Agents angry that 2nd rounders got locked into team-friendly deals

etc

People scoff at the method, but it was and remains a very sound strategy that has worked in the past.  The difference is that Hinkie shamelessly admitted they were tanking and was very transparent with everything - while subsequently not trying to educate the ignorant masses that didn't understand the strategy. 

Most fans in Philly get what Hinkie accomplished.  He's beloved there by the majority of fans and for good reason.   That team has tons of young talent now.  Embiid could end up a superstar.  Simmons could end up a superstar.  Okafor and Noel are two of the finest young big man prospects in the game.  Saric is apparently in the process of coming over finally.   They have something like 70 million dollars in cap space and you best believe free agents will be happy to take their money.  Perhaps not the top-tier talent, but as Jared Dudley recently said in his podcast with CLNS radio, the two main factors for free agents are #1 - Money and #2 - Role.  Philly will have plenty of money.  Whoever signs there will obviously have a role. 

Having followed this league my entire life I'm fairly confident that all the smug rabblerousers dumping on Hinkie will have nothing to say a year from now if things start moving forward for that team.   It was hard to keep making fun of the ineptness of the Clippers when they were suddenly one of the most exciting teams in the league.   Nobody is going to be whining about Hinkie if Ben SImmons and Joel Embiid are battling it out for Rookie of the Year. 

Things could still fail for them.  But they could also turn out really really great for them.  Don't be stunned if they trade for Ricky Rubio or something.  Don't be dumfounded if Mike Conley accepts a contract there.   Don't lose your mind if Harrison Barnes agrees to a max deal and Golden State doesn't match.  Don't be shocked if they fill out their roster with quality veteran talent (the Luol Deng types) who add some balance and maturity to that team.   

It's fine to gloat about how much they failed, but first wait to see if they failed.   We are at the very beginning of the expected next stage of the process.  Step 1:  Acquire tons of assets with ultimate goal of landing a superstar prospect.  Step 2:  Convert assets into a functioning basketball team.    This was going to happen with or without Hinkie on board.   We're right in the middle of the transition between Step 1 (a wild success) and Step 2... You can't claim they failed at Step 1 when they have Ben Simmons on that roster.  So if you're declaring Step 2 a failure, at least wait to see what happens in Step 2.

Sorry dude the best young big men in the game don't get bandied around for a mid-tier point guard like Teague or for a top 3 pick in a draft that is considered to have no clear stars beyond the top two. If you want people to take your stuff seriously leave the hyperbole out it. A lot of your other points are fine, but few take you seriously when you call Noel and Okafor this when it is clear they are not viewed that way by the league.

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2016, 07:57:21 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Hinkie did what Philly's ownership asked him to do

You're going to give Hinkie all the credit if Philly is a powerhouse three years from now.  Don't try and divert the blame because it looks bad right now.

Mike

There's no "blame" to go around.  What they have done is amazing.   They have a chance to be a really special team.   Opinions could change a year from now, but right now it's hard to look at Philly and not be overwhelmingly impressed.   The talent they have amassed via "the process" is nothing short of incredible.   As a fan of the sport, I'm super interested to see how it all pans out for them.  They are in beautiful position right now.

Okafor and Noel are being offered around the league for a bag of balls
"Bag of balls" = #3 pick?  Have more respect for our finest asset.

This offer, along with two other first rounders and a role player was turned down. That is pretty crap value that wouldn't get turned down for one of the best young big men prospects in the game.

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2016, 08:00:35 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Hinkie did what Philly's ownership asked him to do

You're going to give Hinkie all the credit if Philly is a powerhouse three years from now.  Don't try and divert the blame because it looks bad right now.

Mike

There's no "blame" to go around.  What they have done is amazing.   They have a chance to be a really special team.   Opinions could change a year from now, but right now it's hard to look at Philly and not be overwhelmingly impressed.   The talent they have amassed via "the process" is nothing short of incredible.   As a fan of the sport, I'm super interested to see how it all pans out for them.  They are in beautiful position right now.

Okafor and Noel are being offered around the league for a bag of balls
"Bag of balls" = #3 pick?  Have more respect for our finest asset.

This offer, along with two other first rounders and a role player was turned down. That is pretty crap value that wouldn't get turned down for one of the best young big men prospects in the game.
Until I see Noel or Okafor traded for a bag of balls, I don't believe they have ballbag value.

Noel (last year of his rookie deal) was supposedly offered along with some filler for the #3 pick.   Boston supposedly turned that down - rightly so.  It wouldn't make sense for what Boston is trying to do this Summer and long-term.  OUr focus is on recruiting Durant and keeping our options open.  If we land Durant, our other free agent signing will be a center.  Why would we have traded the #3 pick for a center on the final year of his rookie deal?  That would have been foolish.   FWIW, Colangelo said the rumors were false and Philly fans deny that offer even happened.   

We'll see what happens.  Save your gloating for when Philly actually trades Noel or Okafor for pennies on the dollar.  Until then, it's just kinda silly to be celebrating something that never happened.  Last I heard, they might trade a for Ricky Rubio or Eric Bledsoe.  Either would make some sense. 

That Philly roster is still scary loaded.  I don't blame anyone for being intimidated.  Luckily, it should take them some time to dominate the league.

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2016, 08:23:20 PM »

Offline danglertx

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I don't see how the Hinkie era can be considered anything but a complete and utter failure/disaster.  What do they have to show for being the worst team in NBA history, a center who can't play offense, a center who can't play defense, two players who haven't played a single NBA game, one hasn't played any game for 2 years and nothing else?  I think everyone would agree they don't have a star player on their roster any more than the Celtics do.  Oh wait, at least the Celtics had an All-Star last year. 

That is after years of disgracing the franchise and the NBA with the abortion they trotted out onto the court the last three years.  They have a culture of losing, two average players, two unknown players, and cap space.  Good luck with that Philly.  After this round of free agency they still won't have a star and will once again be looking at a high lottery pick come next spring.  How anyone could consider that a success is beyond me.

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2016, 08:25:05 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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Hinkie did what Philly's ownership asked him to do

You're going to give Hinkie all the credit if Philly is a powerhouse three years from now.  Don't try and divert the blame because it looks bad right now.

Mike

There's no "blame" to go around.  What they have done is amazing.   They have a chance to be a really special team.   Opinions could change a year from now, but right now it's hard to look at Philly and not be overwhelmingly impressed.   The talent they have amassed via "the process" is nothing short of incredible.   As a fan of the sport, I'm super interested to see how it all pans out for them.  They are in beautiful position right now.

Okafor and Noel are being offered around the league for a bag of balls
"Bag of balls" = #3 pick?  Have more respect for our finest asset.

This offer, along with two other first rounders and a role player was turned down. That is pretty crap value that wouldn't get turned down for one of the best young big men prospects in the game.
Until I see Noel or Okafor traded for a bag of balls, I don't believe they have ballbag value.

Noel (last year of his rookie deal) was supposedly offered along with some filler for the #3 pick.   Boston supposedly turned that down - rightly so.  It wouldn't make sense for what Boston is trying to do this Summer and long-term.  OUr focus is on recruiting Durant and keeping our options open.  If we land Durant, our other free agent signing will be a center.  Why would we have traded the #3 pick for a center on the final year of his rookie deal?  That would have been foolish.   FWIW, Colangelo said the rumors were false and Philly fans deny that offer even happened.   

We'll see what happens.  Save your gloating for when Philly actually trades Noel or Okafor for pennies on the dollar.  Until then, it's just kinda silly to be celebrating something that never happened.  Last I heard, they might trade a for Ricky Rubio or Eric Bledsoe.  Either would make some sense. 

That Philly roster is still scary loaded.  I don't blame anyone for being intimidated.  Luckily, it should take them some time to dominate the league.

It's comments like those, and you're full of them, that make me wonder why you don't  just post on a Sixers' board full time. You really belong there, man.

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2016, 08:28:21 PM »

Offline saltlover

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Hinkie did what Philly's ownership asked him to do

You're going to give Hinkie all the credit if Philly is a powerhouse three years from now.  Don't try and divert the blame because it looks bad right now.

Mike

There's no "blame" to go around.  What they have done is amazing.   They have a chance to be a really special team.   Opinions could change a year from now, but right now it's hard to look at Philly and not be overwhelmingly impressed.   The talent they have amassed via "the process" is nothing short of incredible.   As a fan of the sport, I'm super interested to see how it all pans out for them.  They are in beautiful position right now.

Okafor and Noel are being offered around the league for a bag of balls
"Bag of balls" = #3 pick?  Have more respect for our finest asset.

This offer, along with two other first rounders and a role player was turned down. That is pretty crap value that wouldn't get turned down for one of the best young big men prospects in the game.
Until I see Noel or Okafor traded for a bag of balls, I don't believe they have ballbag value.

Noel (last year of his rookie deal) was supposedly offered along with some filler for the #3 pick.   Boston supposedly turned that down - rightly so.  It wouldn't make sense for what Boston is trying to do this Summer and long-term.  OUr focus is on recruiting Durant and keeping our options open.  If we land Durant, our other free agent signing will be a center.  Why would we have traded the #3 pick for a center on the final year of his rookie deal?  That would have been foolish.   FWIW, Colangelo said the rumors were false and Philly fans deny that offer even happened.   

We'll see what happens.  Save your gloating for when Philly actually trades Noel or Okafor for pennies on the dollar.  Until then, it's just kinda silly to be celebrating something that never happened.  Last I heard, they might trade a for Ricky Rubio or Eric Bledsoe.  Either would make some sense. 

That Philly roster is still scary loaded.  I don't blame anyone for being intimidated.  Luckily, it should take them some time to dominate the league.

It's comments like those, and you're full of them, that make me wonder why you don't  just post on a Sixers' board full time. You really belong there, man.

LB didn't post that.  He was hacked, don't you know?   ::)

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2016, 08:28:22 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Hinkie did what Philly's ownership asked him to do

You're going to give Hinkie all the credit if Philly is a powerhouse three years from now.  Don't try and divert the blame because it looks bad right now.

Mike

There's no "blame" to go around.  What they have done is amazing.   They have a chance to be a really special team.   Opinions could change a year from now, but right now it's hard to look at Philly and not be overwhelmingly impressed.   The talent they have amassed via "the process" is nothing short of incredible.   As a fan of the sport, I'm super interested to see how it all pans out for them.  They are in beautiful position right now.

Okafor and Noel are being offered around the league for a bag of balls
"Bag of balls" = #3 pick?  Have more respect for our finest asset.

This offer, along with two other first rounders and a role player was turned down. That is pretty crap value that wouldn't get turned down for one of the best young big men prospects in the game.
Until I see Noel or Okafor traded for a bag of balls, I don't believe they have ballbag value.

Noel (last year of his rookie deal) was supposedly offered along with some filler for the #3 pick.   Boston supposedly turned that down - rightly so.  It wouldn't make sense for what Boston is trying to do this Summer and long-term.  OUr focus is on recruiting Durant and keeping our options open.  If we land Durant, our other free agent signing will be a center.  Why would we have traded the #3 pick for a center on the final year of his rookie deal?  That would have been foolish.   FWIW, Colangelo said the rumors were false and Philly fans deny that offer even happened.   

We'll see what happens.  Save your gloating for when Philly actually trades Noel or Okafor for pennies on the dollar.  Until then, it's just kinda silly to be celebrating something that never happened.  Last I heard, they might trade a for Ricky Rubio or Eric Bledsoe.  Either would make some sense. 

That Philly roster is still scary loaded.  I don't blame anyone for being intimidated.  Luckily, it should take them some time to dominate the league.

You mean like when you spent weeks gloating over the fact that you thought you had proved Boston tried to trade for Okafor at the deadline? hehe... have to kind of have laugh at this one old friend.

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2016, 08:41:30 PM »

Offline MBunge

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Hinkie did what Philly's ownership asked him to do

That makes it sound like the owners decided they wanted to mega-tank and Hinkie, by complete coincidence, happened to be the guy they ordered to do it.

Perhaps I'm wrong but my understanding is that "The Process" was almost entirely a Hinkie conception.  HE wanted to tank and tank harder than any team had tanked before.  HE wanted to strip the roster of anything resembling an NBA player.  HE wanted to draft a hurt Noel, a hurt Embiid and Okafor, despite them all playing the same position. And HE is the one who quit when he felt that HIS vision was no longer going to exclusively guide Philly's rebuild.

You're going to give Hinkie all the credit if Philly is a powerhouse three years from now.  Don't try and divert the blame because it looks bad right now.

Mike
It is well documented that Hinkie laid out two courses of action in his interview.

Which confirms exactly what I stated.  HINKIE is the one who proposed the mega-tank.  Did the owners embrace it?  Sure, but it was HINKIE's idea and it's fair to say that no other GM would have proposed it because no one ever tanked anywhere close to this hard before.

This isn't debatable.

Mike

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #42 on: June 29, 2016, 08:57:53 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I thought the ESPN puff piece to be some firsf class butt kissing. Why? Who knows. Maybe Hinkie is going to be an NBA analyst next year. I though the Deadapin article to be clearly over the top negative but hit on several very valid points.

I hate Philly. Unlike some on this site I do not religiously read everything about the Philly situation. But having watched Philly a bunch over the past three seasons through Magic and Celtic telecasts, I have to say, I do not think their collection of assets after losing as much as they did in that time is that impressive.

Embiid has proven nothing and is probably not tradeable at this time. He hasnt played in 2.5 years. I dont see instant success happening just because of that, never mind the fact he could get reinjured or just not be that good. Huge Nerlens fan(he was my neighbor in Everett for years and my son's friend) but his game hasnt progressed a bit since Kentucky. Never thought much of Okafor as he has never shown a very good ability to rebound or play defense the way I want my bigs to. Saric could be anything from a bust to Chandler Parsons good(from video I have seen I wouldnt think he would ever be any better than Parsons). Simmons I love but he could very well be just Lamar Odom good and not Lebron James good.

The 6ers are going to suck for at least a couple more years. Dont believe me, just ask Minny how long it takes to turn a core of youth into a winning team. OKC is the exception not the rule. Youth loses in the NBA, historically you cant argue with that.

So many other teams have never had to be historically bad to win a chip. There are so many ways to acquire top talent to win championships rather than purposely losing for a third of a decade. Just dont like what Hinkie did and since I have hated the 76ers since the 70's, I hope this whole idea fails miserably.

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #43 on: June 29, 2016, 08:59:12 PM »

Offline MBunge

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The golden prize = Ben Simmons... a potentially transcendent player.  That was the point all along. 

And the reason Philly got Simmons instead of Boston?  Pure luck.  Three years of some of the worst basketball ever seen in the history of the NBA...and their entire plan STILL hinged on pure luck.

That's not smart.  That's stupid.  Even if it works.

Mike

Re: New ESPN on Hinkie and the Process
« Reply #44 on: June 29, 2016, 10:05:26 PM »

Offline RAAAAAAAANDY

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Hinkie did what Philly's ownership asked him to do

That makes it sound like the owners decided they wanted to mega-tank and Hinkie, by complete coincidence, happened to be the guy they ordered to do it.

Perhaps I'm wrong but my understanding is that "The Process" was almost entirely a Hinkie conception.  HE wanted to tank and tank harder than any team had tanked before.  HE wanted to strip the roster of anything resembling an NBA player.  HE wanted to draft a hurt Noel, a hurt Embiid and Okafor, despite them all playing the same position. And HE is the one who quit when he felt that HIS vision was no longer going to exclusively guide Philly's rebuild.

You're going to give Hinkie all the credit if Philly is a powerhouse three years from now.  Don't try and divert the blame because it looks bad right now.

Mike
It is well documented that Hinkie laid out two courses of action in his interview.

Which confirms exactly what I stated.  HINKIE is the one who proposed the mega-tank.  Did the owners embrace it?  Sure, but it was HINKIE's idea and it's fair to say that no other GM would have proposed it because no one ever tanked anywhere close to this hard before.

This isn't debatable.

Mike

I love how degrees of tanking somehow matter. As if it's completely ok so long as you sign some washed up vets and win 25 instead of 15 games...

This board is delusional, Hinkie made two bad moves: picking Okafor and not grabbing an ok PG in the draft or FA. Look at Danny Ainge's recent history in the draft and get back to me. He's playing the same game as the Sixers but with lower upside young players.