Author Topic: Revisiting a Smart for Noel trade  (Read 7395 times)

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Re: Revisiting a Smart for Noel trade
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2016, 10:24:32 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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I would never trade Smart for Noel. Smart is such a tough nosed , two way player who impacts the game so much. I really want to see him and Brown develop together. In 2-3 years they could be a force to be reckoned with.

Noel doesn't provide anything we can't get on the free agent market right now. Biyombo can give us what Noel would give us. So can other players.

Imagine Smart, Brown, and Biyombo on the court at the same time :o. How the hell are we going to score, lol? ;D

Put IT and Horford out there with them. I'm expecting Brown to be quite a scorer eventually, and Smart too. Smart showed flashes of it now and then in a few big games last season, including against Westbrook, and in the playoffs. Biyombo...yeah....not so much.

I think the only way that Smart could ever become a star, offensively, is if he played for OKC.  For two straight years, now, I believe, he's had the best game of the season/his career, there, lol ;D. If he's only good in Oklahoma and Texas, maybe Dallas can be duped into giving us another first rounder for him, haha.

Re: Revisiting a Smart for Noel trade
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2016, 10:27:19 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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I would never trade Smart for Noel. Smart is such a tough nosed , two way player who impacts the game so much. I really want to see him and Brown develop together. In 2-3 years they could be a force to be reckoned with.

Noel doesn't provide anything we can't get on the free agent market right now. Biyombo can give us what Noel would give us. So can other players.

Imagine Smart, Brown, and Biyombo on the court at the same time :o. How the hell are we going to score, lol? ;D

Put IT and Horford out there with them. I'm expecting Brown to be quite a scorer eventually, and Smart too. Smart showed flashes of it now and then in a few big games last season, including against Westbrook, and in the playoffs. Biyombo...yeah....not so much.

I think the only way that Smart could ever become a star, offensively, is if he played for OKC.  For two straight years, now, I believe, he's had the best game of the season/his career, there, lol ;D. If he's only good in Oklahoma and Texas, maybe Dallas can be duped into giving us another first rounder for him, haha.

Yeah, I'm not sure if its the OKC arena or playing against Westbrook, but one of those two things really brings it out of him! Westbrook was visibly p---ed in the postgame interview last season after Marcus outplayed him. They tried to get Westbrook to say something good about Marcus, but Westbrook refused, he touted himself instead! It was hilarious.

Re: Revisiting a Smart for Noel trade
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2016, 10:29:52 PM »

Offline oldtype

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Here's a hot take for you guys: I'm not even certain that Noel is a net asset at this point because he is hitting RFA. He is just good enough to get a max contract and just bad enough that you really shouldn't be giving him one.

He is worth something to a contending team who desperately needs rim protection who can just trade for his rookie contract now and give him a max secure in the knowledge that they're not using cap space again for a while now. Granted, there are superior rim protection options out there but Noel is young so you can talk yourself into him having the chance to improve.

But he is worth less than nothing to a rebuilding team, because you can't expect to build a contender with Nerlens Noel taking up one max salary slot. That would mean we could only add one more star to the current roster, and unless we're talking a Kevin Durant level player the end product is just not going to be good enough to win a championship.

I predict that he will be moved before the deadline for a price that makes all of us think "that's it!?"


Great words from a great man

Re: Revisiting a Smart for Noel trade
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2016, 10:33:10 PM »

Offline tstorey_97

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Whatever the actual deal was (was anyone here actually in the room?), Brad Stevens didn't want it.

Good enough for me.

Re: Revisiting a Smart for Noel trade
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2016, 10:42:11 PM »

Offline dannyboy35

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Smart currently is not a two way player. His shooting has gotten worse and worse since he entered the league.

Re: Revisiting a Smart for Noel trade
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2016, 11:01:25 PM »

Offline arctic 3.0

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Whatever the actual deal was (was anyone here actually in the room?), Brad Stevens didn't want it.

Good enough for me.
Not discussing the supposed past deals,
Asking whether smart for Noel straight up would be a net positive.

So far folks seem to be leaning against

Re: Revisiting a Smart for Noel trade
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2016, 11:03:05 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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I would never trade Smart for Noel. Smart is such a tough nosed , two way player who impacts the game so much. I really want to see him and Brown develop together. In 2-3 years they could be a force to be reckoned with.

Noel doesn't provide anything we can't get on the free agent market right now. Biyombo can give us what Noel would give us. So can other players.

Imagine Smart, Brown, and Biyombo on the court at the same time :o. How the hell are we going to score, lol? ;D

Put IT and Horford out there with them. I'm expecting Brown to be quite a scorer eventually, and Smart too. Smart showed flashes of it now and then in a few big games last season, including against Westbrook, and in the playoffs. Biyombo...yeah....not so much.

I think the only way that Smart could ever become a star, offensively, is if he played for OKC.  For two straight years, now, I believe, he's had the best game of the season/his career, there, lol ;D. If he's only good in Oklahoma and Texas, maybe Dallas can be duped into giving us another first rounder for him, haha.

Yeah, I'm not sure if its the OKC arena or playing against Westbrook, but one of those two things really brings it out of him! Westbrook was visibly p---ed in the postgame interview last season after Marcus outplayed him. They tried to get Westbrook to say something good about Marcus, but Westbrook refused, he touted himself instead! It was hilarious.

Yeah, I remember that.  Based on his performances against OKC, though, I'd have to say that it's the arena -

14/15 - didn't play in the game at home against the Thunder, but on March 18, 2015, he had his then career high of 25 points, 9 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals, and 2 blocks:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201503180OKC.html

15/16 - career high 26 points at OKC:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201511150OKC.html

followed by a 2 point showing, on 1/10 from the field at home on March 16, 2016:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201603160BOS.html

I realize that the sample size is small, but for now the deciding factor seems to be OKC's home court, lol ;D.

Re: Revisiting a Smart for Noel trade
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2016, 11:15:06 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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I'd rather have Smart than Noel but I think the C's will revisit a Noel trade... without giving up Smart.
DKC:  Rockets
CB Draft: Memphis Grizz
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Re: Revisiting a Smart for Noel trade
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2016, 12:01:47 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Yes - I would trade Smart for Noel any day, any time, without a moment's hesitation.

To me the concept is simple.

Noel is a big who offers length, athleticism, rebounding, rim protection and defensive versatility in the front court - five things we are in dire need of. 

Smart is a guard who offers defensive versatility on the perimeter, where we already have Avery Bradley, Terry Rozier, Jae Crowder and Jaylen Brown on guaranteed contracts. 

What Smart offers is nice to have, but for the Celtics he is largely redundant. 
It would be FAR more productive to trade that redundant piece out in return for somebody who fills a very real need.

We could argue back and forth all day long about which player is better, and which has more upside, and all the rest.  There is no clear right or wrong answer to that - only opinions - since each players offers different things.   

Nobody can even TRY to argue about which player fills more of a void on this team - it's blatantly obvious that we need Noel's talents far more then we need Smart's.

Problem is that if I'm Philly, I don't think I'd do the trade.  They have a team full of bigs and desperately need a PG, but if I were Philly I'd want a more pure PG (like Dunn) who is a natural playmaker and ball handler who can create plays for their big boys.  I'm not sure I'd have a lot of interest in a tweener like Smart is capable of handling/distibuting the ball, but it's not really a strength of his.

Also, I'm not sure if you can seriously start Smart alongside Simmons and Okafor or even Simmons and Embiid.  There is zero floor spacing there.
 

Re: Revisiting a Smart for Noel trade
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2016, 12:06:38 AM »

Offline danglertx

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Noel is like the white whale of this forum.  His blocks per ranked him something like 48th, barely ahead of Horford and Amir Johnson.  But even then, blocks are the most overrated stat in basketball. 

Teams shoot about 50%.  So hypothetically, half of blocks would have been misses anyway.  Then you have the fouls committed going for blocks.  Add in the blocks recovered by the offensive team or when the ball goes out of bounds and they have a 50% chance of scoring again.  Noel's per on blocks was like 1.8 or so.   Call it two a game.

Meanwhile, every steal actually takes a 50% chance of scoring away from your opponent and adds a 50% chance of you scoring.

Now there is more to defense than blocks and steals but my point is just, Noel hasn't shown his overall package leads to anything but losses.  He is overvalued on this board more than any other player living or dead.

Re: Revisiting a Smart for Noel trade
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2016, 12:06:59 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I would never trade Smart for Noel. Smart is such a tough nosed , two way player who impacts the game so much. I really want to see him and Brown develop together. In 2-3 years they could be a force to be reckoned with.

Noel doesn't provide anything we can't get on the free agent market right now. Biyombo can give us what Noel would give us. So can other players.

Imagine Smart, Brown, and Biyombo on the court at the same time :o. How the hell are we going to score, lol? ;D

Put IT and Horford out there with them. I'm expecting Brown to be quite a scorer eventually, and Smart too. Smart showed flashes of it now and then in a few big games last season, including against Westbrook, and in the playoffs. Biyombo...yeah....not so much.

Except Horford is not a scorer. 

He's a 14 PPG guy who is completely incapable of creating offense, and relies on wide open looks (either on jumpers or around the basket) in order to get points. 

For Horford to be effective he has to be surrounded by multiple shooters/scorers who can draw the defense so that he can get open looks - then he can really punish you. 

Put any kind of half-competent defense on Horford and he's pretty much useless offensively.  We even saw this ourselves in the Hawks series - the only time Horford was able to score against us was when:

a) We gave him a wide open jumper 
b) He got the ball in the post against Sully
c) He got the ball in the post with a major size mismatch (e.g. caught with a guard on him)

Anytime we had a half respectable defensive player on him (e.g. Jerebko, Amir) he was completely useless.

Re: Revisiting a Smart for Noel trade
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2016, 12:14:32 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Noel is like the white whale of this forum.  His blocks per ranked him something like 48th, barely ahead of Horford and Amir Johnson.  But even then, blocks are the most overrated stat in basketball. 

Teams shoot about 50%.  So hypothetically, half of blocks would have been misses anyway.  Then you have the fouls committed going for blocks.  Add in the blocks recovered by the offensive team or when the ball goes out of bounds and they have a 50% chance of scoring again.  Noel's per on blocks was like 1.8 or so.   Call it two a game.

Meanwhile, every steal actually takes a 50% chance of scoring away from your opponent and adds a 50% chance of you scoring.

Now there is more to defense than blocks and steals but my point is just, Noel hasn't shown his overall package leads to anything but losses.  He is overvalued on this board more than any other player living or dead.

Nerlens Noel
Blocks Per 36: 1.8
Steals Per 36: 2.2
Def Rating: 103
Defensive RPM: +2.29
Defensive Win Share: 2.8
Defensive Reb Rate: 22.2


Marcus Smart
Blocks Per 36: 0.3
Steals Per 36: 2.0
Def Rating: 103
Defensive RPM: +0.72
Defensive Win Share:  2.4
Defensive Reb Rate: 11.6

Now tell me how Nowl isn't a more impressive defensive player then Marcus Smart, please.  I will patiently await your reply, as I am really very curious to hear the reasoning behind such a  suggestion.

Just for the record, Noel's defense was just about the ONLY thing that was positive about the 76ers last season.

Re: Revisiting a Smart for Noel trade
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2016, 12:36:36 AM »

Offline meangreenmachine

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Why trade an asset or two for Noel when you can sign Biyombo?

Re: Revisiting a Smart for Noel trade
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2016, 12:53:29 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Why trade an asset or two for Noel when you can sign Biyombo?

Because:

1)  Noel at 22 (with only 2 years of NBA experience) is already a better player then Biyumbo is at 23 after 5 years in the league

2) Because Noel is far more talented offensively, so has a much higher chance of one day becoming a two-way player - Biyumbo is as good as useless offensively

3) Because Noel is taller, longer and even more athletic  with significantly higher upside

Re: Revisiting a Smart for Noel trade
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2016, 01:56:38 AM »

Offline aingeforthree

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Why trade an asset or two for Noel when you can sign Biyombo?

Because:

1)  Noel at 22 (with only 2 years of NBA experience) is already a better player then Biyumbo is at 23 after 5 years in the league

2) Because Noel is far more talented offensively, so has a much higher chance of one day becoming a two-way player - Biyumbo is as good as useless offensively

3) Because Noel is taller, longer and even more athletic  with significantly higher upside

Why trade an asset or two when you can sign him next year without giving up something ?