houston we got a problem

[Beat LA]

No, I'm familiar with the situation, but I just think that passing up talent like Caris Levert and Pascal Siakam at 16 and 23, respectively, is a mistake and should not have been done so just because of guys like Turner, Sully, Amir, Zeller, and Jerebko being free agents, who Levert and Siakam could have more than adequately replaced, imo, and for significantly less money, even though I don't really care about that last part.

I don't know why people keep insisting with the idea that you can draft rookies to replace decent, cheap(ish) mid-level veterans. It doesn't work that way, and it's a waste of draft picks.

Yes it can, and no it isn't, imo.  You don't think that Caris Levert could be better, on both ends, than Evan Turner, for example, because I do.

I am probably the biggest Caris Levert supporter on this blog.  (First posted about him in 2013, I think).  That said, he will not outperform Evan Turner this year.  But he could very well outperform him the following three years, when he's making $2-3 million and Turner might be making 5 times that.

Year one, you shouldn't expect much of rookies in that draft range.  But if you have three rookies making $1-2 million, you'd hope that in year 2, when they're making the same , ONE of them would be able to replace the veteran talent.  And that's still cheaper than the free agent replacement.

The reason why I disagree is that, barring injury, which I know is a risk, Levert is already the far superior defensive player and shooter to Turner, and he can also create his own shot and is an excellent passer.  Maybe I just look at things differently, but if I draft someone, regardless of position, I expect them to contribute, otherwise I never would have selected them in the first place. 

Of course, this would require Stevens to actually play his rookies, so Levert never would have played, anyway.  Sigh.  I do find it interesting, though, that a former member of the Spurs who is now in charge of the Nets, in Sean Marks, took him at 20, when everyone thought he would fall to the second round.  That doesn't bode well for us, imo, lol . Ugh.  Am I making any sense?

I watched almost every game of Levert's career (huge Michigan fan).  He's got the potential to be better than Turner, but he is not the better passer, has a weaker handle, and cannot create for himself the way Turner can.  He's got better defensive potential, because he's faster, but he's a string bean still and will find himself outmuscled if he tries to guard anyone but PG and jump shooters.  He also plays with good defensive intensity, but needs more discipline.  He's a better shooter, absolutely.

I think he'll be a very solid NBA player for years, but health aside, he will need time to transition.  And the same is true of most draft picks in the 15-45 range every year.  Sure, there are a couple who step up in any given year, but they're much more likely to bust than be a year 1 contributor of any quality.

Hey, just the fact that he can guard anyone, never mind 2s, 3s, and maybe even some point guards due to his length, automatically makes him better than Turner, imo, lol . Evan might have a better handle at the moment, but his decision making largely negates much of his offensive talent at times, haha.  I realize that it will take time for Levert to get acclimated to the NBA, but the transition shouldn't take nearly as long as someone like Jaylen Brown because Caris has more experience, and if his foot is okay, I think he'll get a lot of minutes with Brooklyn, even early on, but we'll see.  He should have been a Celtic, though.  Ugh.

[Beat LA]

Seriously. It's probably easier to bold the things the emoji king writes that aren't complete nonsense. Does this guy only watch college ball?

You never stop, do you?  This is at least the third time that you have resorted to name calling and insulting the content of my posts, so I'll be reporting you - again.  And no, I actually watch far more NBA games than college ones, but whatever you say .  You stay classy, Eddie20 . My only wish is that this site had existed when I was a kid - you would have greatly prepared me for dealing with bullies.

[Beat LA]

No, I'm familiar with the situation, but I just think that passing up talent like Caris Levert and Pascal Siakam at 16 and 23, respectively, is a mistake and should not have been done so just because of guys like Turner, Sully, Amir, Zeller, and Jerebko being free agents, who Levert and Siakam could have more than adequately replaced, imo, and for significantly less money, even though I don't really care about that last part.

I don't know why people keep insisting with the idea that you can draft rookies to replace decent, cheap(ish) mid-level veterans. It doesn't work that way, and it's a waste of draft picks.

Yes it can, and no it isn't, imo.  You don't think that Caris Levert could be better, on both ends, than Evan Turner, for example, because I do.

I don't think that you can draft a rookie in the middle of the draft, plug him into the lineup, and expect him to replicate the production of a seasoned rotation veteran. I also think it's a particularly bad idea to draft players you can easily sign, and this approach to drafting should be reserved for cases when nothing better is available.

Turner, in particular, was our fourth best player last season and the idea that you can seamlessly replace him with a rookie (let alone someone who missed 30% of his college career with foot injuries) is wishful thinking.

Why should it matter where someone is drafted?  If Levert hadn't gotten hurt he would have been a lottery pick, and whether we already had Turner or not is irrelevant bc Caris was the bpa at 16, imo, it just so happens that the two of them share similarities.  You don't think that Levert would be a better shooter, decision maker, and in particular, defender, than Turner?

99% of rookies, regardless of draft position, are not ready to come in and help a playoff team right away. That's just how it is. There is a real, legitimate, NBA learning curve. It takes some fewer years than others, but it is on a scale of years, not weeks or months. If you plan to replace key rotation players with rookies, then you are basically planning to miss the playoffs.

I respectfully disagree.

[hpantazo]

No, I'm familiar with the situation, but I just think that passing up talent like Caris Levert and Pascal Siakam at 16 and 23, respectively, is a mistake and should not have been done so just because of guys like Turner, Sully, Amir, Zeller, and Jerebko being free agents, who Levert and Siakam could have more than adequately replaced, imo, and for significantly less money, even though I don't really care about that last part.

I don't know why people keep insisting with the idea that you can draft rookies to replace decent, cheap(ish) mid-level veterans. It doesn't work that way, and it's a waste of draft picks.

Yes it can, and no it isn't, imo.  You don't think that Caris Levert could be better, on both ends, than Evan Turner, for example, because I do.

I don't think that you can draft a rookie in the middle of the draft, plug him into the lineup, and expect him to replicate the production of a seasoned rotation veteran. I also think it's a particularly bad idea to draft players you can easily sign, and this approach to drafting should be reserved for cases when nothing better is available.

Turner, in particular, was our fourth best player last season and the idea that you can seamlessly replace him with a rookie (let alone someone who missed 30% of his college career with foot injuries) is wishful thinking.

Why should it matter where someone is drafted?  If Levert hadn't gotten hurt he would have been a lottery pick, and whether we already had Turner or not is irrelevant bc Caris was the bpa at 16, imo, it just so happens that the two of them share similarities.  You don't think that Levert would be a better shooter, decision maker, and in particular, defender, than Turner?

99% of rookies, regardless of draft position, are not ready to come in and help a playoff team right away. That's just how it is. There is a real, legitimate, NBA learning curve. It takes some fewer years than others, but it is on a scale of years, not weeks or months. If you plan to replace key rotation players with rookies, then you are basically planning to miss the playoffs.

I respectfully disagree.

Fair enough. I just honestly don't recall any NBA team in the last decade or so successfully replacing key rotation guys with rookies and succeeding that same season.

I really like Levert, he's a talent who dropped from injury history. The Nets have actually done a great job drafting the past two years with Levert and McCullough despite the fact that we stole their draft picks. Both of those guys should also get a ton of playing time in Brooklyn this season to develop.

The Yabusele and Zizic picks were clearly made by Ainge with cap space and stash abroad options in mind.

It is unlikely, but still possible, that the Nets, when comparing players acquired in a 1-1 comparison, could have out drafted us the last 2 drafts.

Chris McCullough vs Terry Rozier (McCullough was projected as a lottery pick before his act injury, and Rozier was projected as a late 1st who we reached on)

Javlen Brown vs Caris Levert (without injuries, Levert was projected in the lottery similarly to Brown).

[Beat LA]

I respectfully disagree.

Fair enough. I just honestly don't recall any NBA team in the last decade or so successfully replacing key rotation guys with rookies and succeeding that same season.

I really like Levert, he's a talent who dropped from injury history. The Nets have actually done a great job drafting the past two years with Levert and McCullough despite the fact that we stole their draft picks. Both of those guys should also get a ton of playing time in Brooklyn this season to develop.

The Yabusele and Zizic picks were clearly made by Ainge with cap space and stash abroad options in mind.

It is unlikely, but still possible, that the Nets, when comparing players acquired in a 1-1 comparison, could have out drafted us the last 2 drafts.

Chris McCullough vs Terry Rozier (McCullough was projected as a lottery pick before his act injury, and Rozier was projected as a late 1st who we reached on)

Javlen Brown vs Caris Levert (without injuries, Levert was projected in the lottery similarly to Brown).

I realize that this is the exception and not the rule, but would Avery Bradley count, in 11-12?  I know that he was technically in his sophomore season, but because of injury you could argue that he was pretty much a rookie.  That's the only one I can think of off the top of my head, right now, though, so your point stands *tips hat* .

As for the Nets, I'm not comparing Brown to Levert.  I was comparing Caris to Yabusele, but still, I agree that they very possibly could have outdrafted us, even though I realize that that is not a word, haha.  I'm not a McCullough guy, myself, although I haven't looked into him, that much, but regarding the Rozier pick, I know that almost everyone wanted Portis that year, but am I the only guy on here who liked Rashad Vaughn and Delon Wright at 16, in that order, over Bobby?  I mean, don't get me wrong, Portis is good, but he's not a shot blocker. 

[hpantazo]

I respectfully disagree.

Fair enough. I just honestly don't recall any NBA team in the last decade or so successfully replacing key rotation guys with rookies and succeeding that same season.

I really like Levert, he's a talent who dropped from injury history. The Nets have actually done a great job drafting the past two years with Levert and McCullough despite the fact that we stole their draft picks. Both of those guys should also get a ton of playing time in Brooklyn this season to develop.

The Yabusele and Zizic picks were clearly made by Ainge with cap space and stash abroad options in mind.

It is unlikely, but still possible, that the Nets, when comparing players acquired in a 1-1 comparison, could have out drafted us the last 2 drafts.

Chris McCullough vs Terry Rozier (McCullough was projected as a lottery pick before his act injury, and Rozier was projected as a late 1st who we reached on)

Javlen Brown vs Caris Levert (without injuries, Levert was projected in the lottery similarly to Brown).

I realize that this is the exception and not the rule, but would Avery Bradley count, in 11-12?  I know that he was technically in his sophomore season, but because of injury you could argue that he was pretty much a rookie.  That's the only one I can think of off the top of my head, right now, though, so your point stands *tips hat* .

As for the Nets, I'm not comparing Brown to Levert.  I was comparing Caris to Yabusele, but still, I agree that they very possibly could have outdrafted us, even though I realize that that is not a word, haha.  I'm not a McCullough guy, myself, although I haven't looked into him, that much, but regarding the Rozier pick, I know that almost everyone wanted Portis that year, but am I the only guy on here who liked Rashad Vaughn and Delon Wright at 16, in that order, over Bobby?  I mean, don't get me wrong, Portis is good, but he's not a shot blocker.

Yes, Bradley is a good example, TP. He didn't do a lot, but he did help that season.

I agree about Portis, I was not a fan of the Celtics taking him at 16. Wright and Vaughn looked like much better fits. Portis is good, but didn't bring anything to the team that we didn't already have more than enough of, and he didn't seem to have the potential to be significantly better than our other young PFs.

[bruinsandceltics]

Lol at where this thread has gone.

Complaining about not picking a guy who isn't even going to last 3 years in this league because of his fragility.

Good stuff. Demetrius Jackson is going to be a better NBA player.

[Beat LA]

I respectfully disagree.

Fair enough. I just honestly don't recall any NBA team in the last decade or so successfully replacing key rotation guys with rookies and succeeding that same season.

I really like Levert, he's a talent who dropped from injury history. The Nets have actually done a great job drafting the past two years with Levert and McCullough despite the fact that we stole their draft picks. Both of those guys should also get a ton of playing time in Brooklyn this season to develop.

The Yabusele and Zizic picks were clearly made by Ainge with cap space and stash abroad options in mind.

It is unlikely, but still possible, that the Nets, when comparing players acquired in a 1-1 comparison, could have out drafted us the last 2 drafts.

Chris McCullough vs Terry Rozier (McCullough was projected as a lottery pick before his act injury, and Rozier was projected as a late 1st who we reached on)

Javlen Brown vs Caris Levert (without injuries, Levert was projected in the lottery similarly to Brown).

I realize that this is the exception and not the rule, but would Avery Bradley count, in 11-12?  I know that he was technically in his sophomore season, but because of injury you could argue that he was pretty much a rookie.  That's the only one I can think of off the top of my head, right now, though, so your point stands *tips hat* .

As for the Nets, I'm not comparing Brown to Levert.  I was comparing Caris to Yabusele, but still, I agree that they very possibly could have outdrafted us, even though I realize that that is not a word, haha.  I'm not a McCullough guy, myself, although I haven't looked into him, that much, but regarding the Rozier pick, I know that almost everyone wanted Portis that year, but am I the only guy on here who liked Rashad Vaughn and Delon Wright at 16, in that order, over Bobby?  I mean, don't get me wrong, Portis is good, but he's not a shot blocker.

Yes, Bradley is a good example, TP. He didn't do a lot, but he did help that season.

I agree about Portis, I was not a fan of the Celtics taking him at 16. Wright and Vaughn looked like much better fits. Portis is good, but didn't bring anything to the team that we didn't already have more than enough of, and he didn't seem to have the potential to be significantly better than our other young PFs.

Phew, good to know I'm not alone in that, haha.  I liked Wright because, despite his age, he's a great passer who can arguably guard 1-3, given his size and quickness, but I thought that Smart would improve enough to warrant that selection meaningless, and when was Wright ever going to play, anyway?  Vaughn I looked at as a shooter who can create his own shot, is an excellent athlete despite the knee surgery, is a very good shooter, is a very underrated passer, can defend, as evidenced by his 1 bpg in the summer league (I know, it's not much to go on, but the effort is there, at least), and what really surprised me was his movement off of the ball.  Remember this game against us.  I love that cut at 0:33 -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAmnKcQrRDc

Plus, he's a gym rat, unlike James Young.  Oh well.  I was kind of hoping that we'd trade KO to the Bucks for Rashad, seeing how they need a shooting big, but I doubt that they'd ever go for it, as that deal could look like a rip off for us in a year or two, depending on whether or not he would actually get a chance to play, so probably not.  Ugh.

[Clench123]

Bust

[saltlover]

I respectfully disagree.

Fair enough. I just honestly don't recall any NBA team in the last decade or so successfully replacing key rotation guys with rookies and succeeding that same season.

I really like Levert, he's a talent who dropped from injury history. The Nets have actually done a great job drafting the past two years with Levert and McCullough despite the fact that we stole their draft picks. Both of those guys should also get a ton of playing time in Brooklyn this season to develop.

The Yabusele and Zizic picks were clearly made by Ainge with cap space and stash abroad options in mind.

It is unlikely, but still possible, that the Nets, when comparing players acquired in a 1-1 comparison, could have out drafted us the last 2 drafts.

Chris McCullough vs Terry Rozier (McCullough was projected as a lottery pick before his act injury, and Rozier was projected as a late 1st who we reached on)

Javlen Brown vs Caris Levert (without injuries, Levert was projected in the lottery similarly to Brown).

I realize that this is the exception and not the rule, but would Avery Bradley count, in 11-12?  I know that he was technically in his sophomore season, but because of injury you could argue that he was pretty much a rookie.  That's the only one I can think of off the top of my head, right now, though, so your point stands *tips hat* .

As for the Nets, I'm not comparing Brown to Levert.  I was comparing Caris to Yabusele, but still, I agree that they very possibly could have outdrafted us, even though I realize that that is not a word, haha.  I'm not a McCullough guy, myself, although I haven't looked into him, that much, but regarding the Rozier pick, I know that almost everyone wanted Portis that year, but am I the only guy on here who liked Rashad Vaughn and Delon Wright at 16, in that order, over Bobby?  I mean, don't get me wrong, Portis is good, but he's not a shot blocker.

Avery Bradley is not a good example.  He missed a little time early on recovering from injury, but made his NBA debut in November during his rookie season.  He wound up appearing in 31 NBA games and 9 D-league games.  He was healthy, just not NBA ready, which is our point about rookies.

It's also a datapoint that it isn't the end of world if a rookie doesn't see the court much.  It doesn't necessarily hinder his development, and it isn't a wasted season.

Bradley was unable to provide any kind of quality reserve minutes as a rookie.  Jettisoning a productive vet in favor of him would have been foolish.  But in his second year, he shined midway though.  It was rightfully considered his second year, however, as he was healthy enough to play before Thanksgiving 2010.

[Beat LA]

I respectfully disagree.

Fair enough. I just honestly don't recall any NBA team in the last decade or so successfully replacing key rotation guys with rookies and succeeding that same season.

I really like Levert, he's a talent who dropped from injury history. The Nets have actually done a great job drafting the past two years with Levert and McCullough despite the fact that we stole their draft picks. Both of those guys should also get a ton of playing time in Brooklyn this season to develop.

The Yabusele and Zizic picks were clearly made by Ainge with cap space and stash abroad options in mind.

It is unlikely, but still possible, that the Nets, when comparing players acquired in a 1-1 comparison, could have out drafted us the last 2 drafts.

Chris McCullough vs Terry Rozier (McCullough was projected as a lottery pick before his act injury, and Rozier was projected as a late 1st who we reached on)

Javlen Brown vs Caris Levert (without injuries, Levert was projected in the lottery similarly to Brown).

I realize that this is the exception and not the rule, but would Avery Bradley count, in 11-12?  I know that he was technically in his sophomore season, but because of injury you could argue that he was pretty much a rookie.  That's the only one I can think of off the top of my head, right now, though, so your point stands *tips hat* .

As for the Nets, I'm not comparing Brown to Levert.  I was comparing Caris to Yabusele, but still, I agree that they very possibly could have outdrafted us, even though I realize that that is not a word, haha.  I'm not a McCullough guy, myself, although I haven't looked into him, that much, but regarding the Rozier pick, I know that almost everyone wanted Portis that year, but am I the only guy on here who liked Rashad Vaughn and Delon Wright at 16, in that order, over Bobby?  I mean, don't get me wrong, Portis is good, but he's not a shot blocker.

Avery Bradley is not a good example.  He missed a little time early on recovering from injury, but made his NBA debut in November during his rookie season.  He wound up appearing in 31 NBA games and 9 D-league games.  He was healthy, just not NBA ready, which is our point about rookies.

It's also a datapoint that it isn't the end of world if a rookie doesn't see the court much.  It doesn't necessarily hinder his development, and it isn't a wasted season.

Bradley was unable to provide any kind of quality reserve minutes as a rookie.  Jettisoning a productive vet in favor of him would have been foolish.  But in his second year, he shined midway though.  It was rightfully considered his second year, however, as he was healthy enough to play before Thanksgiving 2010.

Honestly, the only thing that I remember about Bradley as a rookie was that he dropped in the draft because of his ankle and his breakout performance against the Knicks in the final game of the regular season when he had 20 points, iirc.  Other than that, I really don't remember him from 10-11.  I guess I just figured that he spent more time in the d-league or something.  Who knows.

[oldtype]

Evan Turner was one of the best sixth men in the league playing a significant role on a playoff team last year. If any rookie replaced his production he would be in serious consideration for ROTY.

[mmmmm]

Yabusele and Zizic may very well have been drafted because the C's don't want them here this year.  The Celtic's know all about their contracts and drafted them probably as much because of those contracts as their actual talent.  It may be very hard for them to force the C's to bring them to the NBA this year or even next and that may very well be exactly what the C's want.

Lol.

I guess you must not understand the situation?  The C's have 9 players under guaranteed contracts for next year already, that is before the draft.  Brown will make 10.  If the C's do not sign Bentil, Jackson and Nader to contracts by I believe by the start of the NBA year they will be unprotected in the D league.<Not exactly sure the rules on that.  Nader likely will just go to the D league.  Bentil and Jackson may very well get minimum rookie contracts.  If Bentil and Jackson sign you have 12 under contract. 

The way a 'draft and stash' works is roughly as follows:

1. The player has to agree to be stashed. 
2. The team has to offer a qualifying contract.  For first round picks, this is according to rookie scale and includes guaranteed money.  For second round picks, there is not scale restriction but usually they are for minimum contract level money and only rarely include guaranteed money.
3. The player needs to 'refuse to sign' the contract and instead, go play pro ball for another league.
4. This situation keeps the team's draft rights active for up to a full year _after_ the player stops playing under another pro contract.  This can carry over year after year.

So, no, if Bentil, Jackson and Nader all end up stashed in Maine, they will not be 'unprotected'.  The Cs will retain their draft rights.

Basically, the only way a team can lose it's draft rights on the player is if they rescind the contract offer or the player takes a year off from playing basketball in order to shake the draft rights.   I don't know if either has ever happened before.  If so, it has to be pretty rare.

Stashing in the D-League is convenient for the team, because the player is kept close, here in the USA and gets the benefit of shared coaching systems.  Unfortunately, a stashed player is playing on a D-League contract (paid by the league, not the team) and those suck.   Most players will make more money if they play internationally in some pro league in Turkey, Israel, Spain or wherever.   It's not NBA money, but it's better than D-League money. 

[The Oracle]

Yabusele and Zizic may very well have been drafted because the C's don't want them here this year.  The Celtic's know all about their contracts and drafted them probably as much because of those contracts as their actual talent.  It may be very hard for them to force the C's to bring them to the NBA this year or even next and that may very well be exactly what the C's want.

Lol.

I guess you must not understand the situation?  The C's have 9 players under guaranteed contracts for next year already, that is before the draft.  Brown will make 10.  If the C's do not sign Bentil, Jackson and Nader to contracts by I believe by the start of the NBA year they will be unprotected in the D league.<Not exactly sure the rules on that.  Nader likely will just go to the D league.  Bentil and Jackson may very well get minimum rookie contracts.  If Bentil and Jackson sign you have 12 under contract. 

The way a 'draft and stash' works is roughly as follows:

1. The player has to agree to be stashed. 
2. The team has to offer a qualifying contract.  For first round picks, this is according to rookie scale and includes guaranteed money.  For second round picks, there is not scale restriction but usually they are for minimum contract level money and only rarely include guaranteed money.
3. The player needs to 'refuse to sign' the contract and instead, go play pro ball for another league.
4. This situation keeps the team's draft rights active for up to a full year _after_ the player stops playing under another pro contract.  This can carry over year after year.

So, no, if Bentil, Jackson and Nader all end up stashed in Maine, they will not be 'unprotected'.  The Cs will retain their draft rights.

Basically, the only way a team can lose it's draft rights on the player is if they rescind the contract offer or the player takes a year off from playing basketball in order to shake the draft rights.   I don't know if either has ever happened before.  If so, it has to be pretty rare.

Stashing in the D-League is convenient for the team, because the player is kept close, here in the USA and gets the benefit of shared coaching systems.  Unfortunately, a stashed player is playing on a D-League contract (paid by the league, not the team) and those suck.   Most players will make more money if they play internationally in some pro league in Turkey, Israel, Spain or wherever.   It's not NBA money, but it's better than D-League money. 

For Bentil and Jackson to end up in Maine and still be protected they have to have done 1 of 2 things.

1.  They receive a qualifying offer from the C's and accept said offer and then are part of the 15 man roster.  They can then be assigned to Maine.

2.  They receive a qualifying offer from the C's and decline the offer.  They then can sign a D league contract or in any other league, whatever they want and the C's will retain their draft rights. 

  If the C's do not extend them a qualifying offer they can be assigned to Maine as affiliated players and sign a D league contract but also can be called up to the NBA by any of the 30 NBA teams.

Scenario #2 is the only way that Bentil and Jackson can remain exclusive property of the C's, end up in the D league, and not count as part of the 15 man roster.  It is very unlikely that they would turn down any NBA contract in order to play in the D league, they would have to believe highly that they deserve better.  Mickey wasn't necessarily happy with his deal but rookies have little recourse afforded to them. 

[Celtics4ever]

I think Bentil may surprise and earn PT, this year or a roster spot.