Author Topic: K.C. Johnson - Butler deal discussed was Crowder, #3, #16  (Read 8465 times)

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Re: K.C. Johnson - Butler deal discussed was Crowder, #3, #16
« Reply #60 on: June 25, 2016, 12:44:05 AM »

Offline byennie

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I doubt Crowder makes the same leap this year that Butler did in his 4th season, but comparing their first full-time seasons (Butler @24, Crowder @25) is eerily similar, with a clear small advantage to Crowder:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=butleji01&y1=2014&p2=crowdja01&y2=2016

Crowder is the better scorer, shooter, and rebounder, and comparable defender.

Did Jimmy have better skills to build on? Maybe. But it's pretty ironic to discuss Crowder's ceiling in a thread about Butler.

Two areas that are crucial are Crowder's lack of athleticism/hops and a lack of ball-handling. Those two things have really helped Butler's explosive penetrations and ability to get into the lane in traffic. Crowder is just so thick and muscular that he has hardly any lift. For a 6'6" guy, he's not that much of an above the rim player, which is why he struggles to finish a lot of his attempts at the rim.

I agree in principle- Butler is the better offensive player. But even if you compare their 2015-16 seasons, the gap is much smaller than you'd like to entertain double the salary AND a top 5 prospect on a rookie deal. Per 100 possessions, you're talking roughly 28/7/6/2 versus 22/8/3/3... with Crowder slightly higher in true shooting percentage, WS/48 is 0.18 to 0.15.

TLDR; they are about equal defenders, and Butler can handle about 30% more usage without losing efficiency, because of his better ballhandling skills. Crowder scores more from outside.

So Crowder probably doesn't reach Butler's level... but maybe Crowder is a 6 out of 10 and Butler is a 7. Meanwhile a #3 pick projects as a 6+.

If Butler was an 8 or a 9, I'd feel differently, but he's not - he's a very good all around player who has cracked the 20/5/5 club playing a ton of minutes, during a season where different superstars put up crazy lines like 30/7/5, 24/10/8, 28/8/5, 25/7/7, 29/8/6.

He's more Kemba Walker or DeMarr Derozan than he is superstar, and that's fine. I'd love to have him. Heck, I'd pay him the max as a free agent right now. But it's clear the price isn't right.


Re: K.C. Johnson - Butler deal discussed was Crowder, #3, #16
« Reply #61 on: June 25, 2016, 12:52:28 AM »

Offline Geo123

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Butler is very over rated by some. Replacing AB or Crowder with him probably gets us 50 wins but overall not that much better. Really need to add him to the talent we have to make us better.

You think a top 20 player in the NBA (a 20ppg scorer not to mention an excellent 2 way player and 2 time all-star) is only worth 2 more wins?  That's crazy and vastly over rating Crowder and Bradley.  We have big time trouble scoring and Butler can do that WAY better than the other 2 and remember we would only be getting rid of one of them.

Re: K.C. Johnson - Butler deal discussed was Crowder, #3, #16
« Reply #62 on: June 25, 2016, 01:33:36 AM »

Offline D Dub

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If the Bulls wanted Crowder+3+16 and we declined, then there is little hope for us and I would reluctantly have to agree that we need to move on from Ainge. If the deal was the more expansive one of Crowder, Bradley, Smart, 3, 16, and Nets 2017, then Ainge was completely justified. I'm not sure that we'll ever know.

Consider that, right after we drafted Brown, the Bulls were in discussions with Minny for a deal centered on just Dunn + Lavine (and MN countered Rubio/Dunn before disengaging all together) it might be safe to assume the proposed Boston deal was a lot closer to what what KC Johnson is reporting.   

Wasn't that other rumor from the some rando on Twitter?   I'm not buying that nonsense.   Taking Ainge's rep, the proposed MN deal, & the multiple reports from several reputable reporters into considetation --- you have to be willfully ignorant to believe Ainge & Wyc were about to "get ripped off".

My guess is that DA probably wanted the deal, but ultimately passed because Brad was so enamorred with Brown. Knowing Brad is our best asset right now, he let him make the call and is now doing the best he can to shield his coach from all the (well deserved) flame-throwing that's happening as result.   





Re: K.C. Johnson - Butler deal discussed was Crowder, #3, #16
« Reply #63 on: June 25, 2016, 01:41:30 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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I doubt Crowder makes the same leap this year that Butler did in his 4th season, but comparing their first full-time seasons (Butler @24, Crowder @25) is eerily similar, with a clear small advantage to Crowder:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=butleji01&y1=2014&p2=crowdja01&y2=2016

Crowder is the better scorer, shooter, and rebounder, and comparable defender.

Did Jimmy have better skills to build on? Maybe. But it's pretty ironic to discuss Crowder's ceiling in a thread about Butler.

Two areas that are crucial are Crowder's lack of athleticism/hops and a lack of ball-handling. Those two things have really helped Butler's explosive penetrations and ability to get into the lane in traffic. Crowder is just so thick and muscular that he has hardly any lift. For a 6'6" guy, he's not that much of an above the rim player, which is why he struggles to finish a lot of his attempts at the rim.

With that size and bulk, you'd think that Serena Williams  ;) ;D would be a good post player, but apparently not ::). That's a major part of Butler's game, in addition to his ball handling, passing, and shooting skills, all of which are far superior to Crowder's and make Jimmy one of the best shooting guards in the league, probably even the best in the game when you factor in his defense.  I know that both of them went to Marquette, but they're completely different players, and Serena is never going to be half the player that Butler is - sorry.  Comparing Jae Crowder to Jimmy Butler is kind of like saying that Denzel Valentine is the Draymond Green of shooting guards, when that simply is not the case.  Other than the fact that both guys can pass and attended Michigan State, they practically have nothing in common and are completely different players, just like Crowder and Butler.  Sure, Jae and Jimmy are both in-your-face defenders from Marquette, but that's where their similarities end, imo.  Call me when Serena Williams ;D ever does something like this, which broke a Bulls' record set by Michael Jordan -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSwv3Bt4gaE

No one on our team, not even IT, can do something like that (or maybe he can, but expecting anyone to even come close to such a performance is quite unfair). 

As far as the trades from yesterday are concerned, I was never interested in making either deal, nor even different ones with the same result (acquiring Easter Island ;) ;D/Butler).  All that mattered, to me, on Thursday night, was who Danny would select, and even without a trade with Chicago or Philly on the horizon, we should have taken Dunn, imo.

jpotter33 - would you have traded Crowder to Atlanta for 12 and 21, and do you think that the Hawks would have taken it?

Re: K.C. Johnson - Butler deal discussed was Crowder, #3, #16
« Reply #64 on: June 25, 2016, 01:44:33 AM »

Offline jpotter33

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I doubt Crowder makes the same leap this year that Butler did in his 4th season, but comparing their first full-time seasons (Butler @24, Crowder @25) is eerily similar, with a clear small advantage to Crowder:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=butleji01&y1=2014&p2=crowdja01&y2=2016

Crowder is the better scorer, shooter, and rebounder, and comparable defender.

Did Jimmy have better skills to build on? Maybe. But it's pretty ironic to discuss Crowder's ceiling in a thread about Butler.

Two areas that are crucial are Crowder's lack of athleticism/hops and a lack of ball-handling. Those two things have really helped Butler's explosive penetrations and ability to get into the lane in traffic. Crowder is just so thick and muscular that he has hardly any lift. For a 6'6" guy, he's not that much of an above the rim player, which is why he struggles to finish a lot of his attempts at the rim.

With that size and bulk, you'd think that Serena Williams  ;) ;D would be a good post player, but apparently not ::). That's a major part of Butler's game, in addition to his ball handling, passing, and shooting skills, all of which are far superior to Crowder's and make Jimmy one of the best shooting guards in the league, probably even the best in the game when you factor in his defense.  I know that both of them went to Marquette, but they're completely different players, and Serena is never going to be half the player that Butler is - sorry.  Comparing Jae Crowder to Jimmy Butler is kind of like saying that Denzel Valentine is the Draymond Green of shooting guards, when that simply is not the case.  Other than the fact that both guys can pass and attended Michigan State, they practically have nothing in common and are completely different players, just like Crowder and Butler.  Sure, Jae and Jimmy are both in-your-face defenders from Marquette, but that's where their similarities end, imo.  Call me when Serena Williams ;D ever does something like this, which broke a Bulls' record set by Michael Jordan -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSwv3Bt4gaE

No one on our team, not even IT, can do something like that (or maybe he can, but expecting anyone to even come close to such a performance is quite unfair). 

As far as the trades from yesterday are concerned, I was never interested in making either deal, or even different ones with the same result.  All that mattered, to me, on Thursday night, was who Danny would select, and even without a trade with Chicago or Philly on the horizon, we should have taken Dunn, imo.

jpotter33 - would you have traded Crowder to Atlanta for 12 and 21, and do you think that the Hawks would have taken it?

Oh, I think the Hawks would have had a heart attack if we offered them Crowder for 12 and 21 lol I wouldn't do it, though, unless we had decided to go young and we were able to get another one of the top-8 with those picks in order to pair with Brown.

Re: K.C. Johnson - Butler deal discussed was Crowder, #3, #16
« Reply #65 on: June 25, 2016, 02:07:53 AM »

Offline LGC88

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Gar on Butler rumors: “We were in no talks with anybody. There was no discussion during the draft as far as trades."

So the theory might be, DA offer crowder and 2 picks and Chicago never answer to that or wanted to discuss further.

Re: K.C. Johnson - Butler deal discussed was Crowder, #3, #16
« Reply #66 on: June 25, 2016, 02:12:50 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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I doubt Crowder makes the same leap this year that Butler did in his 4th season, but comparing their first full-time seasons (Butler @24, Crowder @25) is eerily similar, with a clear small advantage to Crowder:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=butleji01&y1=2014&p2=crowdja01&y2=2016

Crowder is the better scorer, shooter, and rebounder, and comparable defender.

Did Jimmy have better skills to build on? Maybe. But it's pretty ironic to discuss Crowder's ceiling in a thread about Butler.

Two areas that are crucial are Crowder's lack of athleticism/hops and a lack of ball-handling. Those two things have really helped Butler's explosive penetrations and ability to get into the lane in traffic. Crowder is just so thick and muscular that he has hardly any lift. For a 6'6" guy, he's not that much of an above the rim player, which is why he struggles to finish a lot of his attempts at the rim.

With that size and bulk, you'd think that Serena Williams  ;) ;D would be a good post player, but apparently not ::). That's a major part of Butler's game, in addition to his ball handling, passing, and shooting skills, all of which are far superior to Crowder's and make Jimmy one of the best shooting guards in the league, probably even the best in the game when you factor in his defense.  I know that both of them went to Marquette, but they're completely different players, and Serena is never going to be half the player that Butler is - sorry.  Comparing Jae Crowder to Jimmy Butler is kind of like saying that Denzel Valentine is the Draymond Green of shooting guards, when that simply is not the case.  Other than the fact that both guys can pass and attended Michigan State, they practically have nothing in common and are completely different players, just like Crowder and Butler.  Sure, Jae and Jimmy are both in-your-face defenders from Marquette, but that's where their similarities end, imo.  Call me when Serena Williams ;D ever does something like this, which broke a Bulls' record set by Michael Jordan -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSwv3Bt4gaE

No one on our team, not even IT, can do something like that (or maybe he can, but expecting anyone to even come close to such a performance is quite unfair). 

As far as the trades from yesterday are concerned, I was never interested in making either deal, or even different ones with the same result.  All that mattered, to me, on Thursday night, was who Danny would select, and even without a trade with Chicago or Philly on the horizon, we should have taken Dunn, imo.

jpotter33 - would you have traded Crowder to Atlanta for 12 and 21, and do you think that the Hawks would have taken it?

Oh, I think the Hawks would have had a heart attack if we offered them Crowder for 12 and 21 lol I wouldn't do it, though, unless we had decided to go young and we were able to get another one of the top-8 with those picks in order to pair with Brown.

That's what I was getting at.  Trade Crowder for those picks, the Hawks get a Bazemore replacement on a cheap deal, and then we trade 12 and Rozier, or maybe Smart, for 8, where we take Thon Maker and say screw you, Milwaukee, lol ;D. Combine that with taking Dunn at 3, trading IT and KO (insurance for Ryan Anderson, I guess, lol) to New Orleans for 6 where we take Poeltl.  Once that's Dunn ;) ;D, use 16 on Levert, 21 on Taurean Prince, who is already better than Crowder, in addition to being taller and a much better athlete, 23 on Pascal Siakam, 31 on Brogdon, 35 on Bentil, 45 on Jackson (or Bentil here and Jackson at 35, whatever), 51 on Gary Payton II, and 58 on Sheldon McClellan.  Also sign a few undrafted free agents, but what do you think?  We get a great young core with a major front court upgrade, and guys who actually know how to play basketball, lol ;D. I know, it's the mad scientist approach, and we'd need to trade Bradley to get the finishing touches next year, but yeah - that's what I would have done.  I know, I know - I'm nuts, lol ;D.

Re: K.C. Johnson - Butler deal discussed was Crowder, #3, #16
« Reply #67 on: June 25, 2016, 02:25:25 AM »

Offline alldaboston

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Gar on Butler rumors: “We were in no talks with anybody. There was no discussion during the draft as far as trades."

So the theory might be, DA offer crowder and 2 picks and Chicago never answer to that or wanted to discuss further.

What a blatant liar. I get that he's not supposed to say "yep, we were shopping Jimmy, but then we decided to keep him", but still.
I could very well see the Hawks... starting Taurean Prince at the 3, who is already better than Crowder, imo.

you vs. the guy she tells you not to worry about

Re: K.C. Johnson - Butler deal discussed was Crowder, #3, #16
« Reply #68 on: June 25, 2016, 02:32:07 AM »

Offline jpotter33

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Gar on Butler rumors: “We were in no talks with anybody. There was no discussion during the draft as far as trades."

So the theory might be, DA offer crowder and 2 picks and Chicago never answer to that or wanted to discuss further.

What a blatant liar. I get that he's not supposed to say "yep, we were shopping Jimmy, but then we decided to keep him", but still.

Yeah, there's no doubts they were in talk. He was literally the laughing stock of ESPN today on numerous shows for that quote that was an obvious lie, and everyone thinks it will strain their relationship with Butler even more.

Re: K.C. Johnson - Butler deal discussed was Crowder, #3, #16
« Reply #69 on: June 25, 2016, 02:32:24 AM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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I doubt Crowder makes the same leap this year that Butler did in his 4th season, but comparing their first full-time seasons (Butler @24, Crowder @25) is eerily similar, with a clear small advantage to Crowder:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=butleji01&y1=2014&p2=crowdja01&y2=2016

Crowder is the better scorer, shooter, and rebounder, and comparable defender.

Did Jimmy have better skills to build on? Maybe. But it's pretty ironic to discuss Crowder's ceiling in a thread about Butler.

Two areas that are crucial are Crowder's lack of athleticism/hops and a lack of ball-handling. Those two things have really helped Butler's explosive penetrations and ability to get into the lane in traffic. Crowder is just so thick and muscular that he has hardly any lift. For a 6'6" guy, he's not that much of an above the rim player, which is why he struggles to finish a lot of his attempts at the rim.

With that size and bulk, you'd think that Serena Williams  ;) ;D would be a good post player, but apparently not ::). That's a major part of Butler's game, in addition to his ball handling, passing, and shooting skills, all of which are far superior to Crowder's and make Jimmy one of the best shooting guards in the league, probably even the best in the game when you factor in his defense.  I know that both of them went to Marquette, but they're completely different players, and Serena is never going to be half the player that Butler is - sorry.  Comparing Jae Crowder to Jimmy Butler is kind of like saying that Denzel Valentine is the Draymond Green of shooting guards, when that simply is not the case.  Other than the fact that both guys can pass and attended Michigan State, they practically have nothing in common and are completely different players, just like Crowder and Butler.  Sure, Jae and Jimmy are both in-your-face defenders from Marquette, but that's where their similarities end, imo.  Call me when Serena Williams ;D ever does something like this, which broke a Bulls' record set by Michael Jordan -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSwv3Bt4gaE

No one on our team, not even IT, can do something like that (or maybe he can, but expecting anyone to even come close to such a performance is quite unfair). 

As far as the trades from yesterday are concerned, I was never interested in making either deal, or even different ones with the same result.  All that mattered, to me, on Thursday night, was who Danny would select, and even without a trade with Chicago or Philly on the horizon, we should have taken Dunn, imo.

jpotter33 - would you have traded Crowder to Atlanta for 12 and 21, and do you think that the Hawks would have taken it?

Oh, I think the Hawks would have had a heart attack if we offered them Crowder for 12 and 21 lol I wouldn't do it, though, unless we had decided to go young and we were able to get another one of the top-8 with those picks in order to pair with Brown.

That's what I was getting at.  Trade Crowder for those picks, the Hawks get a Bazemore replacement on a cheap deal, and then we trade 12 and Rozier, or maybe Smart, for 8, where we take Thon Maker and say screw you, Milwaukee, lol ;D. Combine that with taking Dunn at 3, trading IT and KO (insurance for Ryan Anderson, I guess, lol) to New Orleans for 6 where we take Poeltl.  Once that's Dunn ;) ;D, use 16 on Levert, 21 on Taurean Prince, who is already better than Crowder, in addition to being taller and a much better athlete, 23 on Pascal Siakam, 31 on Brogdon, 35 on Bentil, 45 on Jackson (or Bentil here and Jackson at 35, whatever), 51 on Gary Payton II, and 58 on Sheldon McClellan.  Also sign a few undrafted free agents, but what do you think?  We get a great young core with a major front court upgrade, and guys who actually know how to play basketball, lol ;D. I know, it's the mad scientist approach, and we'd need to trade Bradley to get the finishing touches next year, but yeah - that's what I would have done.  I know, I know - I'm nuts, lol ;D.

And you're calling the draft we had a failure? Milwaukee picking Maker at 10 is the biggest reach I've ever seen and now you'd pick him at 8?!

What has happened to the value of skill in this game? I'd put money on Maker not getting past his rookie deal

Re: K.C. Johnson - Butler deal discussed was Crowder, #3, #16
« Reply #70 on: June 25, 2016, 02:40:38 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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I doubt Crowder makes the same leap this year that Butler did in his 4th season, but comparing their first full-time seasons (Butler @24, Crowder @25) is eerily similar, with a clear small advantage to Crowder:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=butleji01&y1=2014&p2=crowdja01&y2=2016

Crowder is the better scorer, shooter, and rebounder, and comparable defender.

Did Jimmy have better skills to build on? Maybe. But it's pretty ironic to discuss Crowder's ceiling in a thread about Butler.

Two areas that are crucial are Crowder's lack of athleticism/hops and a lack of ball-handling. Those two things have really helped Butler's explosive penetrations and ability to get into the lane in traffic. Crowder is just so thick and muscular that he has hardly any lift. For a 6'6" guy, he's not that much of an above the rim player, which is why he struggles to finish a lot of his attempts at the rim.

With that size and bulk, you'd think that Serena Williams  ;) ;D would be a good post player, but apparently not ::). That's a major part of Butler's game, in addition to his ball handling, passing, and shooting skills, all of which are far superior to Crowder's and make Jimmy one of the best shooting guards in the league, probably even the best in the game when you factor in his defense.  I know that both of them went to Marquette, but they're completely different players, and Serena is never going to be half the player that Butler is - sorry.  Comparing Jae Crowder to Jimmy Butler is kind of like saying that Denzel Valentine is the Draymond Green of shooting guards, when that simply is not the case.  Other than the fact that both guys can pass and attended Michigan State, they practically have nothing in common and are completely different players, just like Crowder and Butler.  Sure, Jae and Jimmy are both in-your-face defenders from Marquette, but that's where their similarities end, imo.  Call me when Serena Williams ;D ever does something like this, which broke a Bulls' record set by Michael Jordan -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSwv3Bt4gaE

No one on our team, not even IT, can do something like that (or maybe he can, but expecting anyone to even come close to such a performance is quite unfair). 

As far as the trades from yesterday are concerned, I was never interested in making either deal, or even different ones with the same result.  All that mattered, to me, on Thursday night, was who Danny would select, and even without a trade with Chicago or Philly on the horizon, we should have taken Dunn, imo.

jpotter33 - would you have traded Crowder to Atlanta for 12 and 21, and do you think that the Hawks would have taken it?

Oh, I think the Hawks would have had a heart attack if we offered them Crowder for 12 and 21 lol I wouldn't do it, though, unless we had decided to go young and we were able to get another one of the top-8 with those picks in order to pair with Brown.

That's what I was getting at.  Trade Crowder for those picks, the Hawks get a Bazemore replacement on a cheap deal, and then we trade 12 and Rozier, or maybe Smart, for 8, where we take Thon Maker and say screw you, Milwaukee, lol ;D. Combine that with taking Dunn at 3, trading IT and KO (insurance for Ryan Anderson, I guess, lol) to New Orleans for 6 where we take Poeltl.  Once that's Dunn ;) ;D, use 16 on Levert, 21 on Taurean Prince, who is already better than Crowder, in addition to being taller and a much better athlete, 23 on Pascal Siakam, 31 on Brogdon, 35 on Bentil, 45 on Jackson (or Bentil here and Jackson at 35, whatever), 51 on Gary Payton II, and 58 on Sheldon McClellan.  Also sign a few undrafted free agents, but what do you think?  We get a great young core with a major front court upgrade, and guys who actually know how to play basketball, lol ;D. I know, it's the mad scientist approach, and we'd need to trade Bradley to get the finishing touches next year, but yeah - that's what I would have done.  I know, I know - I'm nuts, lol ;D.

And you're calling the draft we had a failure? Milwaukee picking Maker at 10 is the biggest reach I've ever seen and now you'd pick him at 8?!

What has happened to the value of skill in this game? I'd put money on Maker not getting past his rookie deal

Yes, but that's the only pick with which I would have been willing to gamble, and Maker actually has skills, as opposed to Jaylen 'All I do is dunk, dunk, dunk, no matter what' Brown ::) ;D. Oh well, maybe, like Gerald Green, he'll win the dunk contest this year :-\. Woo. Who would you have taken at 8? 

Re: K.C. Johnson - Butler deal discussed was Crowder, #3, #16
« Reply #71 on: June 25, 2016, 02:42:28 AM »

Offline LGC88

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Gar on Butler rumors: “We were in no talks with anybody. There was no discussion during the draft as far as trades."

So the theory might be, DA offer crowder and 2 picks and Chicago never answer to that or wanted to discuss further.

What a blatant liar. I get that he's not supposed to say "yep, we were shopping Jimmy, but then we decided to keep him", but still.

Yeah, there's no doubts they were in talk. He was literally the laughing stock of ESPN today on numerous shows for that quote that was an obvious lie, and everyone thinks it will strain their relationship with Butler even more.

If ESPN say so, my apology.

Re: K.C. Johnson - Butler deal discussed was Crowder, #3, #16
« Reply #72 on: June 25, 2016, 02:58:18 AM »

Offline chiken Green

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Crowder plus a lottery pick and a 1st round pick does not seem to make up $17 million dollars.. There had to be more to this for it to work.. 

Re: K.C. Johnson - Butler deal discussed was Crowder, #3, #16
« Reply #73 on: June 25, 2016, 03:02:36 AM »

Offline LGC88

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Crowder plus a lottery pick and a 1st round pick does not seem to make up $17 million dollars.. There had to be more to this for it to work..

Like AB and Smart for instance... oh and throw brooklyn 2017 pick as well

Re: K.C. Johnson - Butler deal discussed was Crowder, #3, #16
« Reply #74 on: June 25, 2016, 03:03:00 AM »

Offline playdream

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You trade Crowder and Brown for Butler, then who is gonna guard Lebron?Mickey?
NONSENSE