K.C. Johnson - Butler deal discussed was Crowder, #3, #16

[Casperian]

Besides, you can't call Butler untouchable in one post, and a pumpkin in the next.

I've got no idea what you're talking about. The fact that Butler is not all that great and trading him for Crowder, 3 and 16 is a lousy way to rebuild are not mutually exclusive. NBA trades are not a zero sum game.

They're not mutually exclusive per se, but you seem to flip-flop on your opinion on Butler.

Let me get this straight. You're saying Chicago would be foolish to trade their "best player" for a package of Crowder + 3 (and extra), but Crowder + 3 is a lot better for Boston than Butler?

If you were saying Butler is not that big of an upgrade over Crowder + 3, that's one thing, but you called him a pumpkin.

Something's gotta give.

[max215]

Bill Simmons said, with relative conviction, that teams were asking for the 2017 Nets Pick. If that's true, then Danny was completely justified in staying put.

[kozlodoev]

Besides, you can't call Butler untouchable in one post, and a pumpkin in the next.

I've got no idea what you're talking about. The fact that Butler is not all that great and trading him for Crowder, 3 and 16 is a lousy way to rebuild are not mutually exclusive. NBA trades are not a zero sum game.

They're not mutually exclusive per se, but you seem to flip-flop on your opinion on Butler.

Let me get this straight. You're saying Chicago would be foolish to trade their "best player" for a package of Crowder + 3 (and extra), but Crowder + 3 is a lot better for Boston than Butler?

If you were saying Butler is not that big of an upgrade over Crowder + 3, that's one thing, but you called him a pumpkin.

Something's gotta give.

You don't seem to be reading carefully.

[SparzWizard]

Why would Ainge want two starting SF in a team by keeping Crowder and taking Butler in? And we might even keep Evan Turner?

I would definitely say NO if the package was Smart, Bradley, Crowder, #3, #16, and future BKN picks. That's basically giving our whole house to them. Very generous of them to even keep IT4 out lol.

If it was #3, #16, and Crowder...I'll do it in a heartbeat lol.

[Casperian]

Besides, you can't call Butler untouchable in one post, and a pumpkin in the next.

I've got no idea what you're talking about. The fact that Butler is not all that great and trading him for Crowder, 3 and 16 is a lousy way to rebuild are not mutually exclusive. NBA trades are not a zero sum game.

They're not mutually exclusive per se, but you seem to flip-flop on your opinion on Butler.

Let me get this straight. You're saying Chicago would be foolish to trade their "best player" for a package of Crowder + 3 (and extra), but Crowder + 3 is a lot better for Boston than Butler?

If you were saying Butler is not that big of an upgrade over Crowder + 3, that's one thing, but you called him a pumpkin.

Something's gotta give.

You don't seem to be reading carefully.

That's one way to avoid the question.

Let me put it differently. You're saying a trade of Crowder + 3 for Butler would be a lose/lose for both Chicago and Boston.

I think the opposite is true, considering we are the team with depth and lots of assets which we were looking to consolidate, whereas Chicago has Butler and then basically nothing.

[Irish Stew]

If the Bulls wanted Crowder+3+16 and we declined, then there is little hope for us and I would reluctantly have to agree that we need to move on from Ainge. If the deal was the more expansive one of Crowder, Bradley, Smart, 3, 16, and Nets 2017, then Ainge was completely justified. I'm not sure that we'll ever know.

[mctyson]

Here's the quote: "The Bulls held advanced discussions with the Celtics centered on Butler and the No. 3 pick, with whom they would've selected Providence guard Kris Dunn, league sources said. Several proposals were exchanged, including one with Jae Crowder and the Celtics' No. 3 and No. 16 picks, league sources said."

Now you can take whatever you want from that. It could be interpreted that maybe more would be added to that deal. However, this very well could just be salary filler due to cap/salary requirements in this trade.

So let's parse this out a bit...

Crowder is under our control for 4 more years at roughly $7M per year.  He was a +11 net rating per 100 possessions for Cs this year.  His per 36 mins stats were 16 pts/6 reb/2 assts/2 stl. Almost all of his stats were career bests (at 25 years old), including the advanced stats.

Bulter is under Chicago's control for 3 more years, at roughly $17.5M per year.  He was a +10 rating per 100 possessions for the Bulls this year.  His per 36 mins stats were 20 pts/5 reb/5 assts/1.5 stl.  Almost all of his stats (at 26 years old) were roughly equal to his last season which were career bests, including the advanced stats.

Given those statements above, one would argue that Jimmy Butler is slightly better than Crowder.  But then take into effect that he is making more than twice as much money, and under your control for fewer years, and is older, and ask yourself:  is trading Butler straight up for Crowder a good deal?

Then factor in that Chicago on top of Crowder wanted the #3, the #16, and in order to make salaries match required either Jerebko or Amir.

How can anyone complain about Danny not making that trade???

[jpotter33]

Bill Simmons said, with relative conviction, that teams were asking for the 2017 Nets Pick. If that's true, then Danny was completely justified in staying put.

Sure, I'd agree with that. I'm not giving up Crowder, JJ, 3, 16, AND that pick next year for Butler. No way.

But that's a far cry from adding Smart and Bradley to that above package, too. Absolutely no way that was the offer, and if it was, you could be sure that Danny wasn't in last minute negotiations with them if this was their final offer.

[TheTruthFot18]

Wow if that was the centerpiece of the deal Crowder + #3 then Danny is an idiot.

Butler is no Durant but I doubt that was the actual deal discussed.

Unless Danny gets quoted saying this I don't believe it.

I believe the massive overpay of AB, Crowder, Smart, #3, plus next years BKN pick and I wouldn't do that either.

[jpotter33]

Here's the quote: "The Bulls held advanced discussions with the Celtics centered on Butler and the No. 3 pick, with whom they would've selected Providence guard Kris Dunn, league sources said. Several proposals were exchanged, including one with Jae Crowder and the Celtics' No. 3 and No. 16 picks, league sources said."

Now you can take whatever you want from that. It could be interpreted that maybe more would be added to that deal. However, this very well could just be salary filler due to cap/salary requirements in this trade.

So let's parse this out a bit...

Crowder is under our control for 4 more years at roughly $7M per year.  He was a +11 net rating per 100 possessions for Cs this year.  His per 36 mins stats were 16 pts/6 reb/2 assts/2 stl. Almost all of his stats were career bests (at 25 years old), including the advanced stats.

Bulter is under Chicago's control for 3 more years, at roughly $17.5M per year.  He was a +10 rating per 100 possessions for the Bulls this year.  His per 36 mins stats were 20 pts/5 reb/5 assts/1.5 stl.  Almost all of his stats (at 26 years old) were roughly equal to his last season which were career bests, including the advanced stats.

Given those statements above, one would argue that Jimmy Butler is slightly better than Crowder.  But then take into effect that he is making more than twice as much money, and under your control for fewer years, and is older, and ask yourself:  is trading Butler straight up for Crowder a good deal?

Then factor in that Chicago on top of Crowder wanted the #3, the #16, and in order to make salaries match required either Jerebko or Amir.

How can anyone complain about Danny not making that trade???

Yes, they can still complain about that, because you win in the NBA with top-end talent. Butler will always be better than Crowder and in a tier above him. Let's face it, this was probably Crowder's peak year. It's highly unlikely that his stats improve beyond this year due to his skills not really suggesting he'll be any better than this, and he's certainly never going to be an All-Star. Witha team starving for established talent as much as the C's, you take the All-Star talent every day of the week.

And as good as Crowder's contract is, Butler's contract is also very good with the rising cap. And this fails to mention the star power that Butler also brings to the C's, which, like it or not, makes it easier to attract other top-end talent to us. That's something that people like Bradley and Crowder just aren't capable of doing.

[RockinRyA]

Making that deal will upgrade us at SG but deplete us at SF. Also makes it harder to fill other position of need, since Butler takes more of our Cap and now we dont have #3 and 16. It will become harder to find a Big that could help us down the line, because you have to leave space to sign a max FA and you are not winning with this lineup still so anyone you sign shouldnt be just for the now. The only reason Id do this deal is if we are guaranteed to land Durant.

[byennie]

I doubt Crowder makes the same leap this year that Butler did in his 4th season, but comparing their first full-time seasons (Butler @24, Crowder @25) is eerily similar, with a clear small advantage to Crowder:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=butleji01&y1=2014&p2=crowdja01&y2=2016

Crowder is the better scorer, shooter, and rebounder, and comparable defender.

Did Jimmy have better skills to build on? Maybe. But it's pretty ironic to discuss Crowder's ceiling in a thread about Butler.

[celticmania]

Jimmy Butler isn't an elite player period. He's good but not great.

[jpotter33]

I doubt Crowder makes the same leap this year that Butler did in his 4th season, but comparing their first full-time seasons (Butler @24, Crowder @25) is eerily similar, with a clear small advantage to Crowder:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=butleji01&y1=2014&p2=crowdja01&y2=2016

Crowder is the better scorer, shooter, and rebounder, and comparable defender.

Did Jimmy have better skills to build on? Maybe. But it's pretty ironic to discuss Crowder's ceiling in a thread about Butler.

Two areas that are crucial are Crowder's lack of athleticism/hops and a lack of ball-handling. Those two things have really helped Butler's explosive penetrations and ability to get into the lane in traffic. Crowder is just so thick and muscular that he has hardly any lift. For a 6'6" guy, he's not that much of an above the rim player, which is why he struggles to finish a lot of his attempts at the rim.

[wiley]

Crowder plus Dunn/Brown plus Yabusele
greater than Butler as a pure weighing of assets.

--Butler was seen as a Durant ticket which is the only reason to do that trade.
--If Durant hadn't come despite getting Butler, then then we lose twice.
--If Durant comes to play despite no Butler in Boston then we win twice.

The only reason this non-deal could hurt is if it directly blocked Durant coming here.  And I doubt we'll get to know that, at least for a while.