Author Topic: Rumor- Ainge wanted Noel & Lakers pick  (Read 11563 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Rumor- Ainge wanted Noel & Lakers pick
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2016, 01:26:21 AM »

Offline bogg

  • Jayson Tatum
  • Posts: 817
  • Tommy Points: 51
Why would any impending free agent give up his ability to hit the open market by prematurely agreeing to an extension? I can't recall the last rookie to have done so.

Literally every year a crop of guys signs rookie extensions. Whether an individual player gets a good deal or a bad deal varies on a case-by-case basis, but extensions get signed every year.

Can you give me an example from this past season? I honestly do not recall one. Especially a top-ten draftee.

Anthony Davis and Damian Lillard, but if you mean non-max guys: Jonas Valanciunas, Terrence Ross, Jeremy Lamb, and Kidd-Gilchrist all did this year, if memory serves right.

Re: Rumor- Ainge wanted Noel & Lakers pick
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2016, 01:35:38 AM »

Offline Lucky17

  • DKC Commish
  • JoJo White
  • ****************
  • Posts: 16021
  • Tommy Points: 2352
Why would any impending free agent give up his ability to hit the open market by prematurely agreeing to an extension? I can't recall the last rookie to have done so.

Literally every year a crop of guys signs rookie extensions. Whether an individual player gets a good deal or a bad deal varies on a case-by-case basis, but extensions get signed every year.

Can you give me an example from this past season? I honestly do not recall one. Especially a top-ten draftee.

Anthony Davis and Damian Lillard, but if you mean non-max guys: Jonas Valanciunas, Terrence Ross, Jeremy Lamb, and Kidd-Gilchrist all did this year, if memory serves right.

Yes, non-max. (No rookie would turn down a max deal.)

MKG was coming off a serious injury. Lamb is not very good. The Raptor players both got paid big time, IIRC (Ross isn't worth his contract; JVal could well be). In all cases, the player got paid what might be perceived to be above market.

I wonder what Noel's market value is? Would the Celtics be willing to offer that via extension?
DKC League is now on reddit!: http://www.reddit.com/r/dkcleague

Re: Rumor- Ainge wanted Noel & Lakers pick
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2016, 01:47:58 AM »

Offline sawick48

  • Brad Stevens
  • Posts: 241
  • Tommy Points: 27
Good. The other deal was horrendous. Who wants a D leaguer and 2 late first round picks? What exactly are the C's going to do with those?
The story on the main page called Noel/Covington/24/26 as a "kings ransom". I say hardly, it's still basically a one-year rental of Noel.
Fixed that.

No, you didn't. You broke it.

IT WOULD NOT BE A ONE-YEAR RENTAL.

Why wouldn't it be? He's going to be a FA next year, he's not going to sign an extension (the rookie extension rules for anyone but an all-NBA player are laughable),  and he's going to get paid big time.  If we want to give him a max we can offer it next summer and, if Philly want to match, throw them something like the Clippers 2019 pick

I mean, it's semantics, but by definition it wouldn't be a rental since we would own his rights.

It's a bit weird because he's a restricted FA, but I'd consider it a rental just like I would consider Hayward a rental.  I think we're frontrunners (or at least close enough that giving up the #3 is too much)

Rental or not that trade offer was putrid.  There were already people on here jumping off bridges for the picks we kept and used on draft and stash guys out of necessity.  Now we're going to get upset that Ainge didn't willingly get 2 more of those chances?!  Not saying Ainge had any other choice but to do what he did at 16 and 23 but more a condemnation on those saying he was nuts for turning down this Philly offer.  Which he wasn't.

Re: Rumor- Ainge wanted Noel & Lakers pick
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2016, 02:18:34 AM »

Offline Scintan

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3066
  • Tommy Points: 656
So, it was more important for Danny that he fleece his potential trading partner than that he make a deal to help the team.  Sad, but no surprise.


When people are free to do as they please, they usually imitate each other.

Re: Rumor- Ainge wanted Noel & Lakers pick
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2016, 12:43:55 PM »

Offline elcotte

  • Al Horford
  • Posts: 438
  • Tommy Points: 52
So, it was more important for Danny that he fleece his potential trading partner than that he make a deal to help the team.  Sad, but no surprise.

Why in the world would I trade Brown for Noel and two more late first round picks when I'm trying to consolidate picks already?
It's not about fleecing. It's about a deal that helps.

Re: Rumor- Ainge wanted Noel & Lakers pick
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2016, 12:51:43 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

  • NCE
  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17914
  • Tommy Points: 1294
Good. The other deal was horrendous. Who wants a D leaguer and 2 late first round picks? What exactly are the C's going to do with those?
The story on the main page called Noel/Covington/24/26 as a "kings ransom". I say hardly, it's still basically a one-year rental of Noel.
Fixed that.

No, you didn't. You broke it.

IT WOULD NOT BE A ONE-YEAR RENTAL.

Why wouldn't it be? He's going to be a FA next year, he's not going to sign an extension (the rookie extension rules for anyone but an all-NBA player are laughable),  and he's going to get paid big time.  If we want to give him a max we can offer it next summer and, if Philly want to match, throw them something like the Clippers 2019 pick

I mean, it's semantics, but by definition it wouldn't be a rental since we would own his rights.
Semantics say it's a one-year rental unless we are able to and plan to keep him. Rights or not.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Rumor- Ainge wanted Noel & Lakers pick
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2016, 01:05:44 PM »

Offline loco_91

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2087
  • Tommy Points: 145
So basically Ainge tried to fleece them, and they said no. That's okay. I still think he should've taken their offer, especially since Covington is good and he's on a bargain deal. But I don't blame Danny for holding out, as it sounds like Philly was really set on Dunn and Danny really loved Brown.

Re: Rumor- Ainge wanted Noel & Lakers pick
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2016, 01:25:20 PM »

Offline BitterJim

  • NGT
  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8913
  • Tommy Points: 1212
Good. The other deal was horrendous. Who wants a D leaguer and 2 late first round picks? What exactly are the C's going to do with those?
The story on the main page called Noel/Covington/24/26 as a "kings ransom". I say hardly, it's still basically a one-year rental of Noel.
Fixed that.

No, you didn't. You broke it.

IT WOULD NOT BE A ONE-YEAR RENTAL.

It is most definitely a one-year rental, not matter how big you make the font.  He is a free agent in one year.

He is eligible for an extension this fall. If we had traded for him, there's zero chance that we wouldn't have done so with the idea of extending him, or in the worst case, matching absolutely any offer he'd get as a restricted free agent. There is no universe in which the Celtics trade for Noel but neither extend nor match him. If extended had been the way, that doesn't necessarily equate to a max extension. (But just out of curiosity, what exactly would that max extension look like?) And if matched had been the way, and if it were a max offer, then guess what, that means Noel would be commanding a max offer, i.e., he'd be really good, i.e., he'd be worth it. There is no way that Noel would only play for us for one year.

No. Way.

The large font doesn't make it truer. It just makes it easier to read and comprehend for those of you not getting the situation.

Why would any impending free agent give up his ability to hit the open market by prematurely agreeing to an extension? I can't recall the last rookie to have done so.

He could absolutely suck next year, and still get some cap-space happy team to throw big money at him.

Restricted free agency gives the "home team" opportunity to retain the guy, but it doesn't necessarily make it a wise move.

It makes sense in two cases: if you qualify for the higher-than-max extensions (which requires making an all nba-team or something equally ridiculous), or if you are looking at a contract less than the max and want the added security.  The new CBA has made extensions useless for a player like Noel
I'm bitter.

Re: Rumor- Ainge wanted Noel & Lakers pick
« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2016, 01:25:43 PM »

Offline MBunge

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4661
  • Tommy Points: 471
We can always revisit this trade.  Worst case scenario, we throw IT and Hunter with the future Memphis and Clippers picks for Noel.  Best case, Embiid gets hurt again and Simmons, Noel and Okafor can't play together and we get Noel or Okafor for KO, Rozier and one future first.

Mike

Re: Rumor- Ainge wanted Noel & Lakers pick
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2016, 01:34:19 PM »

Offline saltlover

  • Frank Ramsey
  • ************
  • Posts: 12490
  • Tommy Points: 2619
That's what Ainge should have asked for.  The Noel + grab bag offer took up $3.5 million more in cap room and at least one extra roster spot.  Ainge values three things this summer:

1) Top line talent.  Brown beats Noel on that.
2) Cap space.  Currently we have about $800k extra room after signing two max players, which is clearly what Ainge is shooting for.  (Assuming Amir and Jerebko are gone).  Given that the Philly offer took up that much extra cap space, it would have necessitated further trades to create the room.  On the other hand, Noel + Lakers pick only takes up $400k more cap space, and so does not create a problem.
3) Roster space.  Even after three draft and stash selections, and two picks traded away, we still have a very full roster.  It wouldn't surprise me at all to see someone with a guaranteed contract get cut in training camp.  A 1-for-1 trade would have been fine.  Ainge would prefer a 2-for-1 I have to imagine.  But a 1-for-2?  That's the wrong trade.

If the Sixers didn't want to part with the Lakers pick because of the chance it's a great pick next year, that's their prerogative.  But it's not Ainge being stubborn.  It's Ainge evaluating what he thinks best helps the Celtics both this year and in the future.  He is under no obligation to make a trade -- no team is.  The Sixers offered the best they could that fit in with their team's needs.  That offer didn't match up with the Celtics' needs.  And so no deal was made.  And that's how most trades go, or rather, don't go.

Re: Rumor- Ainge wanted Noel & Lakers pick
« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2016, 01:41:43 PM »

Offline BitterJim

  • NGT
  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8913
  • Tommy Points: 1212
We can always revisit this trade.  Worst case scenario, we throw IT and Hunter with the future Memphis and Clippers picks for Noel.  Best case, Embiid gets hurt again and Simmons, Noel and Okafor can't play together and we get Noel or Okafor for KO, Rozier and one future first.

Mike

Atlanta balked at giving up a one-year rental of Teague for Noel, and you want to give them a younger all-star PG on a better contract, PLUS two future firsts for him? That's not a worst case scenario, that's a worse deal than the KG/Pierce trade was for Brooklyn
I'm bitter.

Re: Rumor- Ainge wanted Noel & Lakers pick
« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2016, 01:51:36 PM »

Offline Eddie20

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8497
  • Tommy Points: 975
Talk about overrated. How much have those wanting to give up major assets for Noel actually seen him play? Put him on our team, have people watch him game in and out, notice all the warts, and I would bet you'll have a lot of people changing their stance on him.

The guy is an average rebounder.  Isn't a good post defender. Has bad hands. No offensive game at all (shooing, passing, post, etc,). Bad feel for the game. Uncoordinated whenever he has do anything that involves the ball actually being in his hands. Has he even improved at all since he left Kentucky? That's a legit question.

I think people are fascinated by the fact that he looks like he should be good rather than what he actually brings to the table. That said, trading major assets would mean you're basically forced to overpay for him next summer. Unless of course you're happy trading away those assets for a 1 year rental of a marginal player.

Re: Rumor- Ainge wanted Noel & Lakers pick
« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2016, 02:03:04 PM »

Offline MBunge

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4661
  • Tommy Points: 471
We can always revisit this trade.  Worst case scenario, we throw IT and Hunter with the future Memphis and Clippers picks for Noel.  Best case, Embiid gets hurt again and Simmons, Noel and Okafor can't play together and we get Noel or Okafor for KO, Rozier and one future first.

Mike

Atlanta balked at giving up a one-year rental of Teague for Noel, and you want to give them a younger all-star PG on a better contract, PLUS two future firsts for him? That's not a worst case scenario, that's a worse deal than the KG/Pierce trade was for Brooklyn

That's worst case, assuming Noel comes on next season and is playing great and the Sixers are winning, but Okafor, Embiid and Simmons are also playing well and Philly just has to move somebody.  And it's assuming Ainge can't sign a decent center this offseason and our lack of rim protection/rebounding continues to plague us.

Mike

Re: Rumor- Ainge wanted Noel & Lakers pick
« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2016, 02:04:55 PM »

Offline BitterJim

  • NGT
  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8913
  • Tommy Points: 1212
We can always revisit this trade.  Worst case scenario, we throw IT and Hunter with the future Memphis and Clippers picks for Noel.  Best case, Embiid gets hurt again and Simmons, Noel and Okafor can't play together and we get Noel or Okafor for KO, Rozier and one future first.

Mike

Atlanta balked at giving up a one-year rental of Teague for Noel, and you want to give them a younger all-star PG on a better contract, PLUS two future firsts for him? That's not a worst case scenario, that's a worse deal than the KG/Pierce trade was for Brooklyn

That's worst case, assuming Noel comes on next season and is playing great and the Sixers are winning, but Okafor, Embiid and Simmons are also playing well and Philly just has to move somebody.  And it's assuming Ainge can't sign a decent center this offseason and our lack of rim protection/rebounding continues to plague us.

Mike

It's like saying "worst case, Cavs trade Lebron and Kyrie for Chris Paul". It's so far beyond the realm of believable that it's not relevant
I'm bitter.

Re: Rumor- Ainge wanted Noel & Lakers pick
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2016, 02:16:54 PM »

Offline MBunge

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4661
  • Tommy Points: 471
We can always revisit this trade.  Worst case scenario, we throw IT and Hunter with the future Memphis and Clippers picks for Noel.  Best case, Embiid gets hurt again and Simmons, Noel and Okafor can't play together and we get Noel or Okafor for KO, Rozier and one future first.

Mike

Atlanta balked at giving up a one-year rental of Teague for Noel, and you want to give them a younger all-star PG on a better contract, PLUS two future firsts for him? That's not a worst case scenario, that's a worse deal than the KG/Pierce trade was for Brooklyn

That's worst case, assuming Noel comes on next season and is playing great and the Sixers are winning, but Okafor, Embiid and Simmons are also playing well and Philly just has to move somebody.  And it's assuming Ainge can't sign a decent center this offseason and our lack of rim protection/rebounding continues to plague us.

Mike

It's like saying "worst case, Cavs trade Lebron and Kyrie for Chris Paul". It's so far beyond the realm of believable that it's not relevant

It's not at all unbelievable that Philly will throw enough money around to add some legitimate NBA players with Simmons.  Not all stars, but guys like Aaron Afflalo.  Now bring in a healthy Embiid and it's not hard to see them jumping up to a 25 win team that is still bad but looks promising.

And I'm not saying I'd trade IT for Noel, just that we can always revisit the trade and still outbid others teams if the market price goes up.

Mike