Author Topic: Herald on Danny playing hardball  (Read 10315 times)

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Re: Herald on Danny playing hardball
« Reply #75 on: June 27, 2016, 03:35:51 PM »

Offline Scintan

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The idea that Ainge needs to "win" every trade is demolished when looking at the what he gave up to bring Antoine back to Boston and the collection of bupkis he got for trading him to Miami.

I'm sure other GMs are irritated with Ainge because he holds all the cards right now, they know it and Ainge knows they know it.

Mike

Exactly what "cards" do you think Ainge is holding, and what's the value of those cards that you claim have other GMs so irritated?  The first "card" from Brooklyn, for example (assuming that was one of the "cards"), wasn't good enough to bring home either of the projected top two players in the draft, and it wasn't good enough to bring back a quality veteran in trade.


When people are free to do as they please, they usually imitate each other.

Re: Herald on Danny playing hardball
« Reply #76 on: June 27, 2016, 03:36:27 PM »

Offline knuckleballer

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Also, doesnt the fact that Ainge has been able to pull,off more trades in the last 3 years than any other GM in the league pretty much render this whole concept that he is just trying to rip people off moot? If all he was doing was trying to rip people off then how did he get so many other GMs to make deals with him?

Exactly.  The guy has earned the nickname "trader Danny".  You don't earn that nickname by only ripping off your opponents.

Re: Herald on Danny playing hardball
« Reply #77 on: June 27, 2016, 03:45:16 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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The idea that Ainge needs to "win" every trade is demolished when looking at the what he gave up to bring Antoine back to Boston and the collection of bupkis he got for trading him to Miami.

I'm sure other GMs are irritated with Ainge because he holds all the cards right now, they know it and Ainge knows they know it.

Mike

Exactly what "cards" do you think Ainge is holding, and what's the value of those cards that you claim have other GMs so irritated?  The first "card" from Brooklyn, for example (assuming that was one of the "cards"), wasn't good enough to bring home either of the projected top two players in the draft, and it wasn't good enough to bring back a quality veteran in trade.

Indeed. TP.

It brought back a player with a lot of warts.
Coined the CelticsBlog term, "Euromistake."

Re: Herald on Danny playing hardball
« Reply #78 on: June 27, 2016, 03:46:53 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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The idea that Ainge needs to "win" every trade is demolished when looking at the what he gave up to bring Antoine back to Boston and the collection of bupkis he got for trading him to Miami.

I'm sure other GMs are irritated with Ainge because he holds all the cards right now, they know it and Ainge knows they know it.

Mike

Exactly what "cards" do you think Ainge is holding, and what's the value of those cards that you claim have other GMs so irritated?  The first "card" from Brooklyn, for example (assuming that was one of the "cards"), wasn't good enough to bring home either of the projected top two players in the draft, and it wasn't good enough to bring back a quality veteran in trade.
Believe it or not, the #3 pick was not good enough to bring back either the #1 or #2 pick. This is correct.

Joking aside, Ainge does not hold all the cards. he's got a bunch of cards, but its not like hes got a ton of leverage. He does have a bunch of assets and because he has a nice team in place and the '17 pick coming down the pipe, he can afford to maintain flexibility. He does not feel the need to make a bad trade in order to expedite the process. I mean it appears he could have mortgaged the future to add Jimmy Butler and then what? Id rather be a 1st 2nd round out with flexibility and unspent assets then a 2nd-3rd round out whose all out of cards.
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: Herald on Danny playing hardball
« Reply #79 on: June 27, 2016, 03:56:02 PM »

Online rocknrollforyoursoul

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Maybe Danny needs to read the chapter on Win-Win from The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People? ;D
"There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.'"

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Re: Herald on Danny playing hardball
« Reply #80 on: June 27, 2016, 03:57:04 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: Herald on Danny playing hardball
« Reply #81 on: June 27, 2016, 04:05:09 PM »

Offline Scintan

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The idea that Ainge needs to "win" every trade is demolished when looking at the what he gave up to bring Antoine back to Boston and the collection of bupkis he got for trading him to Miami.

I'm sure other GMs are irritated with Ainge because he holds all the cards right now, they know it and Ainge knows they know it.

Mike

Exactly what "cards" do you think Ainge is holding, and what's the value of those cards that you claim have other GMs so irritated?  The first "card" from Brooklyn, for example (assuming that was one of the "cards"), wasn't good enough to bring home either of the projected top two players in the draft, and it wasn't good enough to bring back a quality veteran in trade.
Believe it or not, the #3 pick was not good enough to bring back either the #1 or #2 pick. This is correct.

Joking aside, Ainge does not hold all the cards. he's got a bunch of cards, but its not like hes got a ton of leverage. He does have a bunch of assets and because he has a nice team in place and the '17 pick coming down the pipe, he can afford to maintain flexibility. He does not feel the need to make a bad trade in order to expedite the process. I mean it appears he could have mortgaged the future to add Jimmy Butler and then what? Id rather be a 1st 2nd round out with flexibility and unspent assets then a 2nd-3rd round out whose all out of cards.

That's the thing.  The homers have a real problem.  One of the following has to be true:

The "cards" aren't as great as the team/homers think they are.
The Celtics ownership and front office can't make trades when trades should be easy.

We can waste a lot of time, and argue about why the team can't make deals all summer long.
But, we also should all note that the team's been telling the fans that it's going to be making big moves, and failing to follow through, for years, and hold the team accountable for failing to live up to its promises.


When people are free to do as they please, they usually imitate each other.

Re: Herald on Danny playing hardball
« Reply #82 on: June 27, 2016, 04:14:33 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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The idea that Ainge needs to "win" every trade is demolished when looking at the what he gave up to bring Antoine back to Boston and the collection of bupkis he got for trading him to Miami.

I'm sure other GMs are irritated with Ainge because he holds all the cards right now, they know it and Ainge knows they know it.

Mike

Exactly what "cards" do you think Ainge is holding, and what's the value of those cards that you claim have other GMs so irritated?  The first "card" from Brooklyn, for example (assuming that was one of the "cards"), wasn't good enough to bring home either of the projected top two players in the draft, and it wasn't good enough to bring back a quality veteran in trade.
Believe it or not, the #3 pick was not good enough to bring back either the #1 or #2 pick. This is correct.

Joking aside, Ainge does not hold all the cards. he's got a bunch of cards, but its not like hes got a ton of leverage. He does have a bunch of assets and because he has a nice team in place and the '17 pick coming down the pipe, he can afford to maintain flexibility. He does not feel the need to make a bad trade in order to expedite the process. I mean it appears he could have mortgaged the future to add Jimmy Butler and then what? Id rather be a 1st 2nd round out with flexibility and unspent assets then a 2nd-3rd round out whose all out of cards.

That's the thing.  The homers have a real problem.  One of the following has to be true:

The "cards" aren't as great as the team/homers think they are.
The Celtics ownership and front office can't make trades when trades should be easy.

We can waste a lot of time, and argue about why the team can't make deals all summer long.
But, we also should all note that the team's been telling the fans that it's going to be making big moves, and failing to follow through, for years, and hold the team accountable for failing to live up to its promises.
The counter here would be that trades are never easy. Ainge shouldnt be satisfied with losing deals just because his "cards" are valuable enough to bring in big fish without cashing in full value.

As long as the Cs continue to improve their on court product while their biggest assets remain uncashed (cap space and now Brooklyn '17) the "homer argument" will still hold water.

I mean we won 48 games. there is some talent there for sure. that pick will be high. high picks cant be discounted and cap space is the ultimate wildcard. The biggest FA since Lebron James has us in his top 6.
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: Herald on Danny playing hardball
« Reply #83 on: June 27, 2016, 04:23:00 PM »

Offline jambr380

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I can understand wanting to deal the pick for an upgrade. I personally was hoping for Okafor and Saric from Philly, but wanted to stay far far away from a Noel trade. Not only can we sign him next year (how can Philly possibly match a max offer?), but we can also get a similar caliber player THIS year in Biyombo, Whiteside, or even Howard (if you're into that sort-of thing).

Why would anybody want to trade the best pick we've had in 20 years for the type of player we can sign right now (or sign the exact player next year)? It makes no sense...unless Durant is a huge Noel fan  ::)

Re: Herald on Danny playing hardball
« Reply #84 on: June 27, 2016, 04:30:45 PM »

Offline MBunge

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The idea that Ainge needs to "win" every trade is demolished when looking at the what he gave up to bring Antoine back to Boston and the collection of bupkis he got for trading him to Miami.

I'm sure other GMs are irritated with Ainge because he holds all the cards right now, they know it and Ainge knows they know it.

Mike

Exactly what "cards" do you think Ainge is holding, and what's the value of those cards that you claim have other GMs so irritated?  The first "card" from Brooklyn, for example (assuming that was one of the "cards"), wasn't good enough to bring home either of the projected top two players in the draft, and it wasn't good enough to bring back a quality veteran in trade.

He has a team that won 48 games last season and made the playoffs two years in a row.
He essentially has two more unprotected lottery picks coming from the Nets, with a very good chance that at least one and possible both could be top 5.
He has a team full of good young players.
He has a great coach.
He has enough cap space to sign two max free agents.
He has multiple additional draft picks, including two more likely first rounders.

In dealing with other GMs, Ainge holds all the cards.  He doesn't need to make a deal, but he has the resources to make any practical deal he wants.  That he hasn't made a deal YOU want him to make is irrelevant.

I mean, does anyone doubt that Ainge could have traded the #3 and gotten a quality veteran back?  He just didn't think any of the players available were worth it.  If Brown turns out to be a bust, Ainge will deserve all the criticism he gets.  But that's for the future.  Not today.

Mike

Re: Herald on Danny playing hardball
« Reply #85 on: June 27, 2016, 04:34:32 PM »

Offline mahcus smaht

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I can understand wanting to deal the pick for an upgrade. I personally was hoping for Okafor and Saric from Philly, but wanted to stay far far away from a Noel trade. Not only can we sign him next year (how can Philly possibly match a max offer?), but we can also get a similar caliber player THIS year in Biyombo, Whiteside, or even Howard (if you're into that sort-of thing).

Why would anybody want to trade the best pick we've had in 20 years for the type of player we can sign right now (or sign the exact player next year)? It makes no sense...unless Durant is a huge Noel fan  ::)
Noel is under Philly control next year as an RFA, but they probably wont resign him, so we will have as good a chance as the other 28 teams. If we traded for him, we would have 100% chance of keeping him.

Noel is a rim-protecter. Noel probably doesnt influence Durant, but he might influence a guy like Al Horford.

Re: Herald on Danny playing hardball
« Reply #86 on: June 27, 2016, 04:36:15 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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The idea that Ainge needs to "win" every trade is demolished when looking at the what he gave up to bring Antoine back to Boston and the collection of bupkis he got for trading him to Miami.

I'm sure other GMs are irritated with Ainge because he holds all the cards right now, they know it and Ainge knows they know it.

Mike

Exactly what "cards" do you think Ainge is holding, and what's the value of those cards that you claim have other GMs so irritated?  The first "card" from Brooklyn, for example (assuming that was one of the "cards"), wasn't good enough to bring home either of the projected top two players in the draft, and it wasn't good enough to bring back a quality veteran in trade.
Believe it or not, the #3 pick was not good enough to bring back either the #1 or #2 pick. This is correct.

Joking aside, Ainge does not hold all the cards. he's got a bunch of cards, but its not like hes got a ton of leverage. He does have a bunch of assets and because he has a nice team in place and the '17 pick coming down the pipe, he can afford to maintain flexibility. He does not feel the need to make a bad trade in order to expedite the process. I mean it appears he could have mortgaged the future to add Jimmy Butler and then what? Id rather be a 1st 2nd round out with flexibility and unspent assets then a 2nd-3rd round out whose all out of cards.

That's the thing.  The homers have a real problem.  One of the following has to be true:

The "cards" aren't as great as the team/homers think they are.
The Celtics ownership and front office can't make trades when trades should be easy.

We can waste a lot of time, and argue about why the team can't make deals all summer long.
But, we also should all note that the team's been telling the fans that it's going to be making big moves, and failing to follow through, for years, and hold the team accountable for failing to live up to its promises.

Is "homer" this summer's version of "tanker" or "anti-tanker"?  ???

The thing is, those AREN'T the only two options.  Not making a deal doesn't necessarily mean that you couldn't, just that you didn't.  All we know is that Danny didn't make a deal, which likely means that he either couldn't make a deal or didn't think it was worth it.  If the Bulls were insistent on keeping Butler, Danny failing to trade for him doesn't mean that our assets aren't valuable.  He hasn't managed to trade for Boogie, either, but that doesn't have to do with assets, it has to do with the Kings not looking to go in that direction.  Sure, for the right (ridiculous) price, Boogie could be available, but that doesn't mean paying that price would be a good idea.  It seems like Butler is in a similar boat, probably Middleton, too. 

The team hasn't promised deals.  Wyc (a couple of YEARS ago) said that he thought "fireworks" might be possible, and the media (and some fans) ran with it as if it meant big things were guaranteed to happen.  Continuing to rail on that as a sign that Ainge is incompetent is meaningless
I'm bitter.

Re: Herald on Danny playing hardball
« Reply #87 on: June 27, 2016, 04:36:33 PM »

Offline MBunge

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hold the team accountable for failing to live up to its promises.

This isn't like your mother telling you she'll get you ice cream if you're a good boy and then forgetting about it.

Ainge, like every other GM, is trying to do the best job he can.  He makes mistakes, like every other GM, and if this team had sucked for years because of those mistakes, it would be entirely appropriate to rip him a new one.  On Ainge's resume, however, is a championship, another trip to the Finals, multiple playoff appearances and one of the fastest rebuilds anyone has ever seen.

How much is there to complain about?

Mike

Re: Herald on Danny playing hardball
« Reply #88 on: June 27, 2016, 04:43:48 PM »

Offline ZoneD

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hold the team accountable for failing to live up to its promises.

This isn't like your mother telling you she'll get you ice cream if you're a good boy and then forgetting about it.

Ainge, like every other GM, is trying to do the best job he can.  He makes mistakes, like every other GM, and if this team had sucked for years because of those mistakes, it would be entirely appropriate to rip him a new one.  On Ainge's resume, however, is a championship, another trip to the Finals, multiple playoff appearances and one of the fastest rebuilds anyone has ever seen.

How much is there to complain about?

Mike

Exactly. People on here have unrealistic expectations. And I'm not even sure what those expectations are really. Jimmy Butler and Nerlens Noel aren't walking through that door!

Re: Herald on Danny playing hardball
« Reply #89 on: June 27, 2016, 04:45:19 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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hold the team accountable for failing to live up to its promises.

This isn't like your mother telling you she'll get you ice cream if you're a good boy and then forgetting about it.

Ainge, like every other GM, is trying to do the best job he can.  He makes mistakes, like every other GM, and if this team had sucked for years because of those mistakes, it would be entirely appropriate to rip him a new one.  On Ainge's resume, however, is a championship, another trip to the Finals, multiple playoff appearances and one of the fastest rebuilds anyone has ever seen.

How much is there to complain about?

Mike

Exactly. People on here have unrealistic expectations. And I'm not even sure what those expectations are really. Jimmy Butler and Nerlens Noel aren't walking through that door!
those were literally the expectations.
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.