Author Topic: UK Votes to Leave EU / British Snap Elections (merged threads)  (Read 5418 times)

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Re: UK Votes to Leave EU / British Snap Elections (merged threads)
« Reply #45 on: June 25, 2016, 12:08:13 PM »

Online TheSundanceKid

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Britain First is about 0.4% of the national vote. Not significant.

Immigration was certainly a main issue as put to the populist however now that Leave has won they appear to be shifting their stance. Of course Farage is still banging on about it but Gove and Johnson as well as other Conservatives seem to be moving more toward a pre-Maastricht treaty relationship. Would Europe accept that? I'm not so sure but it certainly shows how the politicians are playing the electorate with this one
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Re: UK Votes to Leave EU / British Snap Elections (merged threads)
« Reply #46 on: June 25, 2016, 02:11:06 PM »

Offline Casperian

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Kind of, I mean this was a completely unforced error by Cameron. He had high ranking Tories telling him so from the very start too.

Exactly. Still, you never know when you take certain liberties in a language that is not your first.
Yeah I don't know who I blame more. UKIP people or Cameron.

UKIP drove it more, but Cameron was PM and should have been more responsible and avoiding a gamble that a popular referendum is. (on almost any topic!)

Well, I think "blame" has to go to Cameron. The far right extremists are as dumb as a pound of gravel, Cameron on the other hand should've known better. Then again, what do you expect from a professional politician?
But blame doesn't help anyone. The real, underlying problem remains. The far-right movement, across all of Europe, is gaining massive traction. France, Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Poland, Italy...you name it. Heck, even in Germany the relatively new AfD party is at close to 20% in national polls, and rising. This isn't just a sudden Zeitgeist phenoma, either.

And the similarities to Trump's rise in the US are more than just superficial or accidental. Ironically, these nationalists are connected through the internet like never before, where they continue to spread their crazy, xenophobic half-truths. The very real fear is that the Brexit was only the first domino to fall, which is why it is so important to make this as hard and painful as possible for the UK.

The thing is there have already been motions to do a revote. But I don't think the UK can do that (or ignore the results, even if nonbinding) and retain any sort of credibility.

Yeah, I've heard they started a petition to do a 2nd referendum, on the basis that voter turnout was only 72%, and the final result was so close. Close to 2 million people already signed it, but I'm skeptical regarding the legitimacy of such a petition.
In the end, this isn't just a matter of credibility, it would also mean political suicide for...professional politicians.

3) Long term the economic picture will recover.

Uh-hu, sure, if you ignore that England on it's own has as much economic clout as, say, Macedonia. Good luck competing with the new economic super powers on the world market and getting favorable deals done.

I hope you guys already booked your refresher courses in russian and mandarin, you'll need it if you want to communicate with your new bosses. Their companies can't wait to prey upon ye olde english market.
"In Danny we trust" is so 2016.

Re: UK Votes to Leave EU / British Snap Elections (merged threads)
« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2016, 02:31:30 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Kind of, I mean this was a completely unforced error by Cameron. He had high ranking Tories telling him so from the very start too.

Exactly. Still, you never know when you take certain liberties in a language that is not your first.
Yeah I don't know who I blame more. UKIP people or Cameron.

UKIP drove it more, but Cameron was PM and should have been more responsible and avoiding a gamble that a popular referendum is. (on almost any topic!)
Cameron didn't have to call a referendum. He did anyway in order to strengthen his position within the Tory party. I have zero compassion for him.
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Re: UK Votes to Leave EU / British Snap Elections (merged threads)
« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2016, 02:35:20 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Secondly there were those who wanted to regain the democracy. These people essentially want more tax control and freedom from things like CAP. Often ignored in the debate was that both of these groups had very legitimate claims. Instead of listening to the root causes people just called them racists and bigots which was unhelpful.
You mean Corwall who is a major CAP recipient, voted overwhelmingly to leave, and now is demanding that London made up the difference in funding? That's what I call real freedom from "things like CAP".

And no, these are not racists or bigots -- just people who have no clue. However, that's no excuse for believing the Farage party bus.
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Re: UK Votes to Leave EU / British Snap Elections (merged threads)
« Reply #49 on: June 25, 2016, 05:58:27 PM »

Online TheSundanceKid

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Secondly there were those who wanted to regain the democracy. These people essentially want more tax control and freedom from things like CAP. Often ignored in the debate was that both of these groups had very legitimate claims. Instead of listening to the root causes people just called them racists and bigots which was unhelpful.
You mean Corwall who is a major CAP recipient, voted overwhelmingly to leave, and now is demanding that London made up the difference in funding? That's what I call real freedom from "things like CAP".

And no, these are not racists or bigots -- just people who have no clue. However, that's no excuse for believing the Farage party bus.

Yeah I don't necessarily agree with them. However front their pov this is the first time they've had the opportunity to show their discontent with the current government and they've taken it. Farage made that a clear part of his argument and it was effective. A lot of people where I live (in and around London) really do live in a bubble nowadays. They have no idea what the rest of the country is feeling and unfortunately the disconnect has grown so large it has led to this.


3) Long term the economic picture will recover.

Uh-hu, sure, if you ignore that England on it's own has as much economic clout as, say, Macedonia. Good luck competing with the new economic super powers on the world market and getting favorable deals done.

I hope you guys already booked your refresher courses in russian and mandarin, you'll need it if you want to communicate with your new bosses. Their companies can't wait to prey upon ye olde english market.
Well I think this is a little uninformed. We are still one of the largest economies in the world, even a decline won't be changing that. Merkel has already come out stating that the divorce needs not be messy. Thanks to America English will continue to be the language of business.

As I've said, I voted remain so this wasn't my first choice. However I find that your attitude is widespread among the losing voters. There was more merit to remain than leave bit what is happening now is a complete dismissal of the positive possibilities after we leave. Which is just as irresponsible as the initial claims given by the leave campaign.

For the British it is time to reunite and ensure the best future we can now give ourselves
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Re: UK Votes to Leave EU / British Snap Elections (merged threads)
« Reply #50 on: June 25, 2016, 07:00:16 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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My liberal friends were freaking at this result, it scares them here in the US.

Quote
Britain First is about 0.4% of the national vote. Not significant.

I was talking about it also as slogan, perhaps your not familiar that it was a slogan.  There was even a lawmaker stabbed and shot by a far right person in England, who proclaimed this before attacking Jo  Cox.

Quote
Clarke Rothwell, who runs a cafe near the murder scene, told the Press Association the assailant "was shouting 'put Britain first.' He shouted it about two or three times. He said it before he shot her and after he shot her."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/06/16/british-mp-shot-stabbed-english-village/85974954/

A terrible tragedy indeed.

Quote
Uh-hu, sure, if you ignore that England on it's own has as much economic clout as, say, Macedonia. Good luck competing with the new economic super powers on the world market and getting favorable deals done.

I think your selling England short.

Quote
The Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in the United Kingdom was worth 2988.89 billion US dollars in 2014. The GDP value of the United Kingdom represents 4.82 percent of the world economy.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp

The Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in Macedonia was worth 11.32 billion US dollars in 2014. The GDP value of Macedonia represents 0.02 percent of the world economy

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/macedonia/gdp

A poor example indeed.

Quote
And the similarities to Trump's rise in the US are more than just superficial or accidental. Ironically, these nationalists are connected through the internet like never before, where they continue to spread their crazy, xenophobic half-truths. The very real fear is that the Brexit was only the first domino to fall, which is why it is so important to make this as hard and painful as possible for the UK.

I concur.  This seems to be a phenomena gaining strength in many parts of the world.  Ignore it or just chalk it up to immigration at your peril.   Isolating a group and blaming them for economic playbook has always been a big part of certain groups playbooks.   Sadly, it has worked for them well in the past to dire results.   Those who ignore history are bound to repeat it is an old adage.

Re: UK Votes to Leave EU / British Snap Elections (merged threads)
« Reply #51 on: June 25, 2016, 07:53:30 PM »

Offline Casperian

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Quote from: TheSundanceKid link=topic=85613.msg2119028#msg2119028
Well I think this is a little uninformed. We are still one of the largest economies in the world, even a decline won't be changing that. Merkel has already come out stating that the divorce needs not be messy. Thanks to America English will continue to be the language of business.

I think you're incredibly naive, but that's your prerogative.
We'll see how much spine Merkel really has when the other nations pressure her. I know my Chancellor enough to believe you're in for a surprise.

If you really believe you can have all the advantages of the EU market, without any of the responsibilities and disadvantages, in other words, have your cake and eat it, too, then let me tell you: we will drink your milkshake.

Here are a few real facts, for those who believe the rethoric about "sound economic reasons" or "citizens concerned about their sovereignty"

http://www.vox.com/2016/6/25/12029786/brexit-uk-eu-immigration-xenophobia

and a nice snapshot of Britain the day after

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Clz_0SwWgAALJkd.jpg:large
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 12:31:55 AM by Casperian »
"In Danny we trust" is so 2016.

Re: UK Votes to Leave EU / British Snap Elections (merged threads)
« Reply #52 on: June 25, 2016, 08:11:07 PM »

Offline Casperian

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I think your selling England short.

Quote
The Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in the United Kingdom was worth 2988.89 billion US dollars in 2014. The GDP value of the United Kingdom represents 4.82 percent of the world economy.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp

The Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in Macedonia was worth 11.32 billion US dollars in 2014. The GDP value of Macedonia represents 0.02 percent of the world economy

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/macedonia/gdp

A poor example indeed.

Depends if "the UK" still exists in a few years. I said "England". But fair enough, it was an exaggeration...for now.
"In Danny we trust" is so 2016.

Re: UK Votes to Leave EU / British Snap Elections (merged threads)
« Reply #53 on: June 26, 2016, 03:31:54 AM »

Online TheSundanceKid

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Casperian I'm not trying to be naive I'm just saying it's not as one sided as you are portraying. At this juncture noone on Europe wants another recession. Politically I can absolutely see the advantages of trying to kill Britain and set an example. Economically it is better to make the right deal. Business will be a big driver in this. I don't expect Britain to come out with a better deal than before, far too much would need to go right for us. When the dust settles and things get serious I would expect something close to what Norway has but with payments more reflective of the size of the British economy and some restrictions on the length of time Europeans can live in Britain with no job. I think that's the most the leave campaign can hope for. And that would have to be seriously fought for as well, it would not be a gimme.

For us it's very important that negotiations don't start now. Not because of the conservative leadership but because right now as a nation we are so divided. I'm 26, my generation feels absolutely screwed by this. We voted 3 to 1 for remain. There is a huge sense that we have been denied the same opportunities as our parents generation by our parents. I feel this as well but I also realise that we are where we are and now we have to get the best deal we can for us. In a few months I think people will come round to this and start to fight to what is the closest to what we had, EEA membership.

Celtics4Ever, sorry I misunderstood your use of the phrase. You're right it's definitely a growing problem. Farage has used the British in the same way Trump is using the Americans. The democrats need to seriously wake up to this thread or they will be caught out in the same way. Get Bernie as the running mate and that would shore up the vote I think. Not sure if they're willing to do that just yet though!
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Re: UK Votes to Leave EU / British Snap Elections (merged threads)
« Reply #54 on: June 26, 2016, 04:04:52 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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Dat empire, tho (sarcasm) ;D.

Re: UK Votes to Leave EU / British Snap Elections (merged threads)
« Reply #55 on: June 26, 2016, 04:44:40 AM »

Offline ederson

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Quote from: Casperian

I think you're incredibly naive, but that's your prerogative.
We'll see how much spine Merkel really has when the other nations pressure her. I know my Chancellor enough to believe you're in for a surprise.

I think so too... she has shown that she won't stand back. Daring her to play chicken is not very wise. I don't necessarily agree with her agenda and emperorlike attitude  (many Germans don't too) but that's how it is....

The Greek issue and now the brexit should be enough to start a conversation about eu and fix it but I realy doubt it will happen

Re: UK Votes to Leave EU / British Snap Elections (merged threads)
« Reply #56 on: June 27, 2016, 04:09:50 PM »

Offline Casperian

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...

I admire your optimism, but I can't share it.

This is as much a social issue as it is a business issue. The EU itself could be at stake. That's why it's important to come down hard on them. Besides, if we let them have their way, the UK could be in a position to completely undermine the EU. Article 50 has been designed in a way that pretty much all the negotiating power lies with the EU, and I am certain they will exercise it, as evidenced by Merkel's declaration that there will be no negotiations until you guys invoke it, regardless of what she said right after the result to reassure the world market.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 04:28:53 PM by Casperian »
"In Danny we trust" is so 2016.

Re: UK Votes to Leave EU / British Snap Elections (merged threads)
« Reply #57 on: June 27, 2016, 04:25:19 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Casperian I'm not trying to be naive I'm just saying it's not as one sided as you are portraying. At this juncture noone on Europe wants another recession. Politically I can absolutely see the advantages of trying to kill Britain and set an example. Economically it is better to make the right deal. Business will be a big driver in this. I don't expect Britain to come out with a better deal than before, far too much would need to go right for us. When the dust settles and things get serious I would expect something close to what Norway has but with payments more reflective of the size of the British economy and some restrictions on the length of time Europeans can live in Britain with no job. I think that's the most the leave campaign can hope for. And that would have to be seriously fought for as well, it would not be a gimme.

For us it's very important that negotiations don't start now. Not because of the conservative leadership but because right now as a nation we are so divided. I'm 26, my generation feels absolutely screwed by this. We voted 3 to 1 for remain. There is a huge sense that we have been denied the same opportunities as our parents generation by our parents. I feel this as well but I also realise that we are where we are and now we have to get the best deal we can for us. In a few months I think people will come round to this and start to fight to what is the closest to what we had, EEA membership.

Celtics4Ever, sorry I misunderstood your use of the phrase. You're right it's definitely a growing problem. Farage has used the British in the same way Trump is using the Americans. The democrats need to seriously wake up to this thread or they will be caught out in the same way. Get Bernie as the running mate and that would shore up the vote I think. Not sure if they're willing to do that just yet though!
EEA membership includes acceptance of (most) EU law, free movement of labor, and contribution to the EU budget. All this without any control over the legislature coined in Brussels. There's no way for the Torys to push for this without committing political suicide.
(Formerly) managing Rilski Sportist to glory at http://www.buzzerbeater.com

Re: UK Votes to Leave EU / British Snap Elections (merged threads)
« Reply #58 on: June 28, 2016, 06:15:05 AM »

Offline Casperian

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Since I've read quite a few comments (not here, but under several newspaper articles) questioning the link between the Brexit campaign and Trump's rise, here's a bit more evidence for the non-believers among us.

First of all, this is a sample of Daily Mail and Daily Express headlines, which I found to be quite telling

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cl4HTMyVYAAq9FI.jpg:large

Another british newspaper that was pushing a similar agenda was "The Sun"

https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/nintchdbpict000244406542.jpg?w=755

The Sun is owned by known "philantrope" Rupert Murdoch, who also owns Fox News, among many other news outlets. Remember how Trump addressed the Brexit news at his scottish golf course? Well, guess who was also there

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/25/19/35A9613700000578-3660027-image-a-19_1466880618763.jpg
"In Danny we trust" is so 2016.

Re: UK Votes to Leave EU / British Snap Elections (merged threads)
« Reply #59 on: June 28, 2016, 06:25:25 AM »

Offline ederson

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Casperian I'm not trying to be naive I'm just saying it's not as one sided as you are portraying. At this juncture noone on Europe wants another recession. Politically I can absolutely see the advantages of trying to kill Britain and set an example. Economically it is better to make the right deal. Business will be a big driver in this. I don't expect Britain to come out with a better deal than before, far too much would need to go right for us. When the dust settles and things get serious I would expect something close to what Norway has but with payments more reflective of the size of the British economy and some restrictions on the length of time Europeans can live in Britain with no job. I think that's the most the leave campaign can hope for. And that would have to be seriously fought for as well, it would not be a gimme.

For us it's very important that negotiations don't start now. Not because of the conservative leadership but because right now as a nation we are so divided. I'm 26, my generation feels absolutely screwed by this. We voted 3 to 1 for remain. There is a huge sense that we have been denied the same opportunities as our parents generation by our parents. I feel this as well but I also realise that we are where we are and now we have to get the best deal we can for us. In a few months I think people will come round to this and start to fight to what is the closest to what we had, EEA membership.

Celtics4Ever, sorry I misunderstood your use of the phrase. You're right it's definitely a growing problem. Farage has used the British in the same way Trump is using the Americans. The democrats need to seriously wake up to this thread or they will be caught out in the same way. Get Bernie as the running mate and that would shore up the vote I think. Not sure if they're willing to do that just yet though!
EEA membership includes acceptance of (most) EU law, free movement of labor, and contribution to the EU budget. All this without any control over the legislature coined in Brussels. There's no way for the Torys to push for this without committing political suicide.

And EU won't settle for anything less than free movement
Considering that that was one of the mail Brexit issues i don't know how they can find some common ground