Author Topic: Thunder shopping Ibaka  (Read 7078 times)

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Re: Thunder shopping Ibaka
« Reply #60 on: June 23, 2016, 05:29:30 PM »

Offline action781

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AB slides into the starting 2 for OKC as a perfect fit.

Ibaka slides into the starting 4 for us as a terrific fit/need (with some small ball 5 ability).  We can now draft a SG with the #3 pick (Buddy Hield or Jamal Murray) and have plenty of playing time for all of our guards.

PG: IT4/Rozier
SG: Smart/#3/Hunter
SF: Crowder/Jerebko
PF: Ibaka
C: Amir/Olynyk

That's a good, pretty young lineup with still the #16, 23, 31, 35 picks and some cap space to fill it out and no future assets lost.
2020 CelticsStrong All-2000s Draft -- Utah Jazz
 
Finals Starters:  Jason Kidd - Reggie Miller - PJ Tucker - Al Horford - Shaq
Bench:  Rajon Rondo - Trae Young - Marcus Smart - Jaylen Brown -  Peja Stojakovic - Jamal Mashburn - Carlos Boozer - Tristan Thompson - Mehmet Okur

Re: Thunder Shopping IBAKA
« Reply #61 on: June 23, 2016, 05:32:34 PM »

Offline Endless Paradise

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I'm sure they wouldn't, because that isn't a true upgrade to the shooting guard position. They'd have no interest in Smart. It doesn't matter if he's a better defender, he's still a bad shooter much like Roberson. They'd be way more interested in Bradley.

Also, they'd be getting two years of Smart on his rookie deal.

Now Smart isn't an upgrade on Andre Roberson? I thought I had heard it all. Guess not. If you dislike Smart, you would haaaaatttttteeeee Roberson. The only reason he plays is because OKC went with the most extreme "we have Westbrook and Durant so let's play a 1 trick starter" move in the league.

I like how you're ignoring the point that Smart is a bad shooter, which is what OKC is looking to improve at the shooting guard position.

Beggars can't be choosers- OKC getting back a shooter for Ibaka isn't the only scenario. Smart would be excellent value, period.

They're not begging, so they absolutely can afford to be choosers. lol, you think the Celtics are the only guys they can trade Ibaka to? They don't have to (and they wouldn't) settle on Marcus Smart.

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Don't be fooled by the stats. Roberson only shoots completely uncontested shots as the 5th option on the floor and still can't hit 30% from deep or even make free throws. He can't pass. He plays man-to-man hustle defense and that's it.

1) Check your facts. He shot 31% from 3.
2) That's bad. Still significantly better than Smart's 25%.
3) He can pass.
4) He's the fifth option... all they need from him is to hit shots. They don't need him to do much else with the ball.

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OKC would like another shooter, yes, but making that the only option in an Ibaka deal is a huge assumption.

It's not the only option. There's just no logical reason for them to want Smart.

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And Smart is a better shooter than Roberson, albeit still not a good outside threat.

Last season's numbers don't bear this out. Smart shot significantly worse than he did the season before while Roberson increased his percentage.

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I'd bet money he can hit closer to 35% in OKC though, with wide open looks.

He's a career 29% 3 point shooter. Roberson is a career 27% 3 point shooter. I'm calling bull on this bet.

Re: Thunder shopping Ibaka
« Reply #62 on: June 23, 2016, 05:35:53 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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The Kanter deal absolutely wasn't a mistake and the fact that they got through the Spurs series should put that train of thought to bed. They had to re-sign Kanter. If they didn't re-sign him, they wouldn't have been able to replace him with a free agent because they would've been capped out. They would've lost an asset for no reason at all.

The Thunder didn't make a "mistake" in retaining Kanter; this was just an unavoidable, unfortunate situation. I'd rather see them trade Kanter, too, but I always knew, as the season progressed and especially during the playoffs, that they were going to have to trade one of Ibaka or Kanter, as they're the two most expendable big money pieces.

I'm saying the original deal attaining Kanter was a mistake, because they should've seen this coming. They attained him at the deadline knowing he would get a BIG contract, but they HAD to pay him the contract after wasting assets on him to get him. Now you're losing the (in my opinion much) better Ibaka for paying Kanter. No way that sits well with Durant.

Re: Thunder shopping Ibaka
« Reply #63 on: June 23, 2016, 05:38:23 PM »

Offline Endless Paradise

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I'm saying the original deal attaining Kanter was a mistake, because they should've seen this coming. They attained him at the deadline knowing he would get a BIG contract, but they HAD to pay him the contract after wasting assets on him to get him. Now you're losing the (in my opinion much) better Ibaka for paying Kanter. No way that sits well with Durant.

I completely disagree with that take, considering virtually everyone - fans, other teams' front offices, the media - lauded them for constructing a bench out of a disgruntled player who publicly demanded a trade.

Re: Thunder shopping Ibaka
« Reply #64 on: June 23, 2016, 05:48:31 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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I'm saying the original deal attaining Kanter was a mistake, because they should've seen this coming. They attained him at the deadline knowing he would get a BIG contract, but they HAD to pay him the contract after wasting assets on him to get him. Now you're losing the (in my opinion much) better Ibaka for paying Kanter. No way that sits well with Durant.

I completely disagree with that take, considering virtually everyone - fans, other teams' front offices, the media - lauded them for constructing a bench out of a disgruntled player who publicly demanded a trade.

They'll change their mind when they see the effects of a Kanter/Adams front court. That makes no sense either offensively or defensively.

It's also ridiculous that a bench player is making that much BEFORE the cap rose.

Re: Thunder shopping Ibaka
« Reply #65 on: June 23, 2016, 05:51:36 PM »

Offline Endless Paradise

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Change their minds on what? If they kept Reggie Jackson like they originally wanted, they'd still be facing this decision. If they acquired Brook Lopez like they originally wanted, they'd still be facing this situation. The simple fact of the matter is that Adams becoming good was always going to push one of the core 3 out.

Re: Thunder Shopping IBAKA
« Reply #66 on: June 23, 2016, 05:58:02 PM »

Offline byennie

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They're not begging, so they absolutely can afford to be choosers. lol, you think the Celtics are the only guys they can trade Ibaka to? They don't have to (and they wouldn't) settle on Marcus Smart.

1) Check your facts. He shot 31% from 3.
2) That's bad. Still significantly better than Smart's 25%.
3) He can pass.
4) He's the fifth option... all they need from him is to hit shots. They don't need him to do much else with the ball.

We don't know what the trade market is, but they won't likely be getting a quality shooter who is an upgrade at that position for a 1 year rental of Ibaka, unless the incoming guy is a rental too, or much older, etc.

EDIT: We sort of know the market, since 2 years of Thad Young went for #20.

Roberson is career 27% on one attempt per game. Definition of wide open shots.
Smart is career 30% shooter on four attempts per game. That's actually a big difference, and Smart had a career low last year. No reason to believe he stays there.

No, he can't pass. He averages 1.5 assists per 36 minutes. It's not a hidden skill, if he had any passing skills at SG he'd dish out more than 1 assist per game playing with Durant and Westbrook.

As for the 5th option... yeah, because he's that bad offensively. The fact that OKC can afford that has nothing to do with Smart vs Roberson.

« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 06:09:35 PM by byennie »

Re: Thunder Shopping IBAKA
« Reply #67 on: June 23, 2016, 06:13:56 PM »

Offline Endless Paradise

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They're not begging, so they absolutely can afford to be choosers. lol, you think the Celtics are the only guys they can trade Ibaka to? They don't have to (and they wouldn't) settle on Marcus Smart.

1) Check your facts. He shot 31% from 3.
2) That's bad. Still significantly better than Smart's 25%.
3) He can pass.
4) He's the fifth option... all they need from him is to hit shots. They don't need him to do much else with the ball.

We don't know what the trade market is, but they won't likely be getting a quality shooter who is an upgrade at that position for a 1 year rental of Ibaka, unless the incoming guy is a rental too, or much older, etc.

Yes, they can most certainly get a stopgap shooter for a shot-blocking, three-point shooting big with an expiring contract. 

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Roberson is career 27% on one attempt per game. Definition of wide open shots.
Smart is career 30% shooter on four attempts per game. That's actually a big difference, and Smart had a career low last year. No reason to believe he stays there.

Fair enough. Smart is a bad shooter on high volume, Roberson is a bad shooter on low volume. They're both bad shooters.

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No, he can't pass. He averages 1.5 assists per 36 minutes. It's not a hidden skill, if he had any passing skills at SG he'd dish out more than 1 assist per game playing with Durant and Westbrook.

That's by design because KD and Westbrook are so ball dominant. They deliberately go for low-usage guys at that position. That's why Harden, Martin, and Jackson all came off the bench and why they had Waiters coming off the bench.

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As for the 5th option... yeah, because he's that bad offensively. The fact that OKC can afford that has nothing to do with Smart vs Roberson.

He's the fifth option and Smart would be as well, because they're both bad shooters.

Re: Thunder shopping Ibaka
« Reply #68 on: June 23, 2016, 06:21:17 PM »

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This is the player I would be fine trading Bradley. It would solve positional issues on both teams.

Re: Thunder Shopping IBAKA
« Reply #69 on: June 23, 2016, 06:23:57 PM »

Offline byennie

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Yes, they can most certainly get a stopgap shooter for a shot-blocking, three-point shooting big with an expiring contract. 

Fair enough. Smart is a bad shooter on high volume, Roberson is a bad shooter on low volume. They're both bad shooters.

That's by design because KD and Westbrook are so ball dominant. They deliberately go for low-usage guys at that position. That's why Harden, Martin, and Jackson all came off the bench and why they had Waiters coming off the bench.

He's the fifth option and Smart would be as well, because they're both bad shooters.

Who said anything about a stopgap shooter? They could go that direction, but Smart again is worth more than a rental who can stretch the floor a little. Those type of guys can be had for the MLE or vet minimum.

The difference in shooting is IMO you can't leave Smart wide open. That matters. Shooting 30%+ on 4 attempts tells me he would shoot 35% or better on Roberson's volume. So now you have a better defender, better passer and better ballhandler who also is a bigger spot up threat, even if shooting isn't his forte. Those are all assets. They don't have to use him EXACTLY like Roberson.

If Smart is your 5th option, he's a better 5th option than Roberson, because he's at least modestly better at shooting, ballhandling and passing. If that's underutilized, then maybe he's not the 5th option at all. If he is 5th like Roberson, he'll have the energy to be an absolute terror on defense.

Re: Thunder Shopping IBAKA
« Reply #70 on: June 23, 2016, 06:39:17 PM »

Offline Endless Paradise

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Yes, they can most certainly get a stopgap shooter for a shot-blocking, three-point shooting big with an expiring contract. 

Fair enough. Smart is a bad shooter on high volume, Roberson is a bad shooter on low volume. They're both bad shooters.

That's by design because KD and Westbrook are so ball dominant. They deliberately go for low-usage guys at that position. That's why Harden, Martin, and Jackson all came off the bench and why they had Waiters coming off the bench.

He's the fifth option and Smart would be as well, because they're both bad shooters.

Who said anything about a stopgap shooter? They could go that direction, but Smart again is worth more than a rental who can stretch the floor a little. Those type of guys can be had for the MLE or vet minimum.

He's not worth Ibaka to OKC.

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The difference in shooting is IMO you can't leave Smart wide open. That matters. Shooting 30%+ on 4 attempts tells me he would shoot 35% or better on Roberson's volume. So now you have a better defender, better passer and better ballhandler who also is a bigger spot up threat, even if shooting isn't his forte. Those are all assets. They don't have to use him EXACTLY like Roberson.

Smart shot 25% on wide-open threes to Roberson's 32%. You can leave the guy wide-open, because he's not good at shooting threes.

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If Smart is your 5th option, he's a better 5th option than Roberson, because he's at least modestly better at shooting, ballhandling and passing. If that's underutilized, then maybe he's not the 5th option at all. If he is 5th like Roberson, he'll have the energy to be an absolute terror on defense.

So, basically, he'd just play Roberson's role of being a bad spot-up shooter who's an absolute terror on defense. Which goes back to my point about him not being a true upgrade to that position for the Thunder.

Re: Thunder shopping Ibaka
« Reply #71 on: June 23, 2016, 07:03:02 PM »

Offline Endless Paradise

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Woj just said on his live draft show that the Thunder aren't shopping Ibaka and aren't even close to moving him; instead, they fielded calls to gauge his value, but they understand his importance to the franchise, particularly in regards to his relationship with KD.

Re: Thunder shopping Ibaka
« Reply #72 on: June 23, 2016, 07:05:41 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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Woj just said on his live draft show that the Thunder aren't shopping Ibaka and aren't even close to moving him; instead, they fielded calls to gauge his value, but they understand his importance to the franchise, particularly in regards to his relationship with KD.

Yeah, that makes sense. That would've really hindered them in keeping KD.

Re: Thunder shopping Ibaka
« Reply #73 on: June 23, 2016, 07:08:17 PM »

Offline Endless Paradise

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They may not move Ibaka, but they're definitely going to have to trade Kanter at some point, assuming KD returns, because there's no way they can afford all of those guys. That said, I think they can eventually move him and get a nice return. I don't think his contract is an albatross at all. The production he can give you so long as he's surrounded with the right pieces and put in the appropriate role is valuable, especially considering his age.

Re: Thunder shopping Ibaka
« Reply #74 on: June 23, 2016, 09:03:22 PM »

Offline Endless Paradise

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... well, like I said, they definitely weren't settling on Smart.