Author Topic: Khris middleton for the 3rd?  (Read 15278 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Khris middleton for the 3rd?
« Reply #75 on: June 21, 2016, 05:14:22 PM »

Offline CFAN38

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4878
  • Tommy Points: 420
This is an absolute Celtics leak to make Philly pay up lol Middleton is NOT worth the third pick.

I agree that this may be an intentional leak to create competition for Dunn but I disagree that Middleton is not worth the 3rd. He is 24 signed to a good long term deal and is a 18pt a game 6'8+ wing who defends his position well and shoots 40% from 3.

I wouldn't be shocked to see a deal in the order of AB +#3 + Hunter + Amir for Middleton + Monroe.

The Bucks could draft Dunn at #3 and Poeltl at #10 creating a starting 5 of Dunn,AB, Giannis, Parker and Henson/Poeltl. This is a very attractive young roster with room to develop.

The Cs would add a better fit at SG in the 6'8 Middleton who would allow the Cs to play a more traditional small ball lineup with Smart at SG Middleton and Crowder at the 3/4. This would also open up minutes for Rozier. Monroe is a polarizing player but he is a major offensive upgrade from Sully and Amir. I would think a IT, Smart, Middleton, Crowder and Monroe lineup would be the best in the east outside of the Cavs.
Mavs
Wiz
Hornet

Re: Khris middleton for the 3rd?
« Reply #76 on: June 21, 2016, 05:46:41 PM »

Offline mmmmm

  • NCE
  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5308
  • Tommy Points: 862
This is an absolute Celtics leak to make Philly pay up lol Middleton is NOT worth the third pick.

I agree that this may be an intentional leak to create competition for Dunn but I disagree that Middleton is not worth the 3rd. He is 24 signed to a good long term deal and is a 18pt a game 6'8+ wing who defends his position well and shoots 40% from 3.

I wouldn't be shocked to see a deal in the order of AB +#3 + Hunter + Amir for Middleton + Monroe.

The Bucks could draft Dunn at #3 and Poeltl at #10 creating a starting 5 of Dunn,AB, Giannis, Parker and Henson/Poeltl. This is a very attractive young roster with room to develop.

The Cs would add a better fit at SG in the 6'8 Middleton who would allow the Cs to play a more traditional small ball lineup with Smart at SG Middleton and Crowder at the 3/4. This would also open up minutes for Rozier. Monroe is a polarizing player but he is a major offensive upgrade from Sully and Amir. I would think a IT, Smart, Middleton, Crowder and Monroe lineup would be the best in the east outside of the Cavs.

I like Monroe more than most, but I'd prefer that we swap the #10 in for him in that deal.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Khris middleton for the 3rd?
« Reply #77 on: June 21, 2016, 06:14:49 PM »

Offline Smokeeye123

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2374
  • Tommy Points: 156
Threads like these make me realize how many totally ignorant some celtics fans and NBA fans are in general.

"Player I've never/barely heard of on a team I don't know about? HE SUCKS"

Middleton is the scorer we need and has improved every year he's been in the league. It's gonna take a lot to get him though from Milwaukee. Probably #3 plus another high pick or a player.

Considering that, in general, top 5 picks that get traded for established players usually get you an all star, thinking 3 for Middleton is fair (or even an overpay) isn't crazy.  Middleton is worth quite a bit, but so is the #3 pick

Drafts usually have more than 2 universally accepted great players in them.

No they don't.

Yes, yes they do. Most of the time it is not considered a two player draft with a steep drop off in talent after 2. It's usually considered a more gradual slide. Not this year. Almost every scout you talk to says it drops off a cliff after 2. Look at the last 5 drafts and the level of talent in the top 10.

2010: John Wall, Demarcus Cousins, Gordon Hayward, Paul George, Greg Monroe
2011: Kyrie Irving, Klay Thompson, Kemba Walker, Tristian Thompson
2012: Anthony Davis, Andre Drummond, Bradley Beal, Damion Lillard
2013: bleh
2014: Andrew Wiggins, Jabari Parker, Joel Embiid,
2015: Karl Anthony Towns, Deangelo Russell, Joel Embiid, Justice Winslow

OBVIOUSLY not every one of these picks was thought of as a sure thing at the time but Specifically the last two years I can say for certain they were all held in high regard and held a lot more value than this year.

Re: Khris middleton for the 3rd?
« Reply #78 on: June 21, 2016, 06:20:13 PM »

Offline CFAN38

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4878
  • Tommy Points: 420
This is an absolute Celtics leak to make Philly pay up lol Middleton is NOT worth the third pick.

I agree that this may be an intentional leak to create competition for Dunn but I disagree that Middleton is not worth the 3rd. He is 24 signed to a good long term deal and is a 18pt a game 6'8+ wing who defends his position well and shoots 40% from 3.

I wouldn't be shocked to see a deal in the order of AB +#3 + Hunter + Amir for Middleton + Monroe.

The Bucks could draft Dunn at #3 and Poeltl at #10 creating a starting 5 of Dunn,AB, Giannis, Parker and Henson/Poeltl. This is a very attractive young roster with room to develop.

The Cs would add a better fit at SG in the 6'8 Middleton who would allow the Cs to play a more traditional small ball lineup with Smart at SG Middleton and Crowder at the 3/4. This would also open up minutes for Rozier. Monroe is a polarizing player but he is a major offensive upgrade from Sully and Amir. I would think a IT, Smart, Middleton, Crowder and Monroe lineup would be the best in the east outside of the Cavs.

I like Monroe more than most, but I'd prefer that we swap the #10 in for him in that deal.

Swapping out Monroe for #10 even if the Cs have to include 16 or 23 could make for an interesting draft. The Cs haven't been linked to Poeltl but he would be a nice fit for the future. Another possibility would be a trade up over possible slip from Hield or Chris. Hield isn't a logical fit but the Cs could basically turn AB and Turner into Middleton and Hield dramatically improving the Cs shooting. At 6'8 Middleton would allow for more small ball allowing Rozier more minutes even with the Hield addition.
Mavs
Wiz
Hornet

Re: Khris middleton for the 3rd?
« Reply #79 on: June 21, 2016, 06:53:33 PM »

Offline snively

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5866
  • Tommy Points: 454
I'm surprised everyone is so against trading #3 for Middleton. I don't think we should trade the pick before we know exactly who it's going to be but Middleton is 24 years old and averaged 18-4-4 with 1.7 steals per game last year, shooting .444/.396/.888. He plays good defense and is exactly the kind of player the Celtics need (a shooting wing who can defend).

What are the odds that anyone rumored to be taken #3 will be as good of a two-way player as Middleton?
Averaging 18 ppg in 36 minutes is not some sort of a major achievement. You're trading for Jeff Green all over again.

If Jeff Green could defend 2 guards, hit 3s at 40%, pass the ball and score 18ppg as anything other than a smallball 4, he'd still be here.
2016 CelticsBlog Draft: Chicago Bulls

Head Coach: Fred Hoiberg

Starters: Rubio, Danny Green, Durant, Markieff Morris, Capela
Bench: Sessions, Shumpert, G. Green, T. Booker, Frye
Deep Bench: CJ Watson, H. Thompson, P. Zipser, Papagiannis, Mejri

Re: Khris middleton for the 3rd?
« Reply #80 on: June 21, 2016, 06:56:46 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

  • NCE
  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17914
  • Tommy Points: 1294
I'm surprised everyone is so against trading #3 for Middleton. I don't think we should trade the pick before we know exactly who it's going to be but Middleton is 24 years old and averaged 18-4-4 with 1.7 steals per game last year, shooting .444/.396/.888. He plays good defense and is exactly the kind of player the Celtics need (a shooting wing who can defend).

What are the odds that anyone rumored to be taken #3 will be as good of a two-way player as Middleton?
Averaging 18 ppg in 36 minutes is not some sort of a major achievement. You're trading for Jeff Green all over again.

If Jeff Green could defend 2 guards, hit 3s at 40%, pass the ball and score 18ppg as anything other than a smallball 4, he'd still be here.
Jeff Green regularly defended 2 guards, hit .385 from three the last full season he played here, and was on pace for 17.7 pp36 the season when he was traded. It's funny how revisionist history works.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Khris middleton for the 3rd?
« Reply #81 on: June 21, 2016, 07:08:24 PM »

Offline snively

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5866
  • Tommy Points: 454
I'm surprised everyone is so against trading #3 for Middleton. I don't think we should trade the pick before we know exactly who it's going to be but Middleton is 24 years old and averaged 18-4-4 with 1.7 steals per game last year, shooting .444/.396/.888. He plays good defense and is exactly the kind of player the Celtics need (a shooting wing who can defend).

What are the odds that anyone rumored to be taken #3 will be as good of a two-way player as Middleton?
Averaging 18 ppg in 36 minutes is not some sort of a major achievement. You're trading for Jeff Green all over again.

If Jeff Green could defend 2 guards, hit 3s at 40%, pass the ball and score 18ppg as anything other than a smallball 4, he'd still be here.
Jeff Green regularly defended 2 guards, hit .385 from three the last full season he played here, and was on pace for 17.7 pp36 the season when he was traded. It's funny how revisionist history works.

Jeff Green regularly struggled to defend 2 guards - he was solid but unexceptional against SFs. He hit .385 on low volume in one season and shot .343 overall from 3 during his time in Boston.

But you are right, he did manage 18 per 36. I should have said, the only time he showed quality scoring efficiency at that volume was as a smallball PF - his ONLY season that compares with Middleton in TS% and volume came in 12/13, when he spent 80% of his minutes at the 2 big spots.
2016 CelticsBlog Draft: Chicago Bulls

Head Coach: Fred Hoiberg

Starters: Rubio, Danny Green, Durant, Markieff Morris, Capela
Bench: Sessions, Shumpert, G. Green, T. Booker, Frye
Deep Bench: CJ Watson, H. Thompson, P. Zipser, Papagiannis, Mejri

Re: Khris middleton for the 3rd?
« Reply #82 on: June 21, 2016, 07:11:12 PM »

Offline byennie

  • Webmaster
  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2572
  • Tommy Points: 3033
Jeff Green regularly defended 2 guards, hit .385 from three the last full season he played here, and was on pace for 17.7 pp36 the season when he was traded. It's funny how revisionist history works.

You have a point, but you're a little off on numbers. That was his 2nd-to-last full season, was a career high, and on 2.2 attempts per game.

Career splits are
45/40/87
vs
44/34/79

Middleton also plays a lot more 2/3 versus 3/4 for Green. Neither good nor bad, but he's definitely spending more time guarding opposing 2s.

Slightly better prime Jeff Green is a pretty good player, regardless of how the Green era unfolded.

Re: Khris middleton for the 3rd?
« Reply #83 on: June 21, 2016, 07:24:46 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6932
  • Tommy Points: 814
  • A true Celtic plays with heart.
I'm hoping Ainge can somehow pull off a trade that can net us Cousins and Middleton. Middleton and Cousins would be one of the most devastating combos in the NBA. Middleton is a sniper. He can also pull up in the mid range, and his length and versatility would certainly be useful in any team in the NBA.

Always wondered if Bradley plus maybe the '17 Brooklyn pick, and a few second rounders, and filler would net us Middleton.

Would I give up the 3rd pick? Sure, if Ainge seriously believed Middleton would still be the better player than Bender, and Dunn. I just don't see Middleton as a go to guy, or a franchise player, but he could be the 1B/2nd go to scorer, which I can see Middleton becoming in the future.
"I bomb atomically, Socrates' philosophies and hypotheses
Can't define how I be dropping these mockeries."

Is the glass half-full or half-empty?
It's based on your perspective, quite simply
We're the same and we're not; know what I'm saying? Listen
Son, I ain't better than you, I just think different

Re: Khris middleton for the 3rd?
« Reply #84 on: June 21, 2016, 07:29:42 PM »

Online BitterJim

  • NGT
  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8913
  • Tommy Points: 1212
Threads like these make me realize how many totally ignorant some celtics fans and NBA fans are in general.

"Player I've never/barely heard of on a team I don't know about? HE SUCKS"

Middleton is the scorer we need and has improved every year he's been in the league. It's gonna take a lot to get him though from Milwaukee. Probably #3 plus another high pick or a player.

Considering that, in general, top 5 picks that get traded for established players usually get you an all star, thinking 3 for Middleton is fair (or even an overpay) isn't crazy.  Middleton is worth quite a bit, but so is the #3 pick

Drafts usually have more than 2 universally accepted great players in them.

No they don't.

Yes, yes they do. Most of the time it is not considered a two player draft with a steep drop off in talent after 2. It's usually considered a more gradual slide. Not this year. Almost every scout you talk to says it drops off a cliff after 2. Look at the last 5 drafts and the level of talent in the top 10.

2010: John Wall, Demarcus Cousins, Gordon Hayward, Paul George, Greg Monroe
2011: Kyrie Irving, Klay Thompson, Kemba Walker, Tristian Thompson
2012: Anthony Davis, Andre Drummond, Bradley Beal, Damion Lillard
2013: bleh
2014: Andrew Wiggins, Jabari Parker, Joel Embiid,
2015: Karl Anthony Towns, Deangelo Russell, Joel Embiid, Justice Winslow

OBVIOUSLY not every one of these picks was thought of as a sure thing at the time but Specifically the last two years I can say for certain they were all held in high regard and held a lot more value than this year.

And despite the poor 2013 draft, Jrue Holiday (having already been an all star at that point) was traded for the #6 pick. And Ray Allen was traded for the #5 pick in a 3 person draft (2007)
I'm bitter.

Re: Khris middleton for the 3rd?
« Reply #85 on: June 21, 2016, 07:41:35 PM »

Offline byennie

  • Webmaster
  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2572
  • Tommy Points: 3033
Yes, yes they do. Most of the time it is not considered a two player draft with a steep drop off in talent after 2. It's usually considered a more gradual slide. Not this year. Almost every scout you talk to says it drops off a cliff after 2. Look at the last 5 drafts and the level of talent in the top 10.

2010: John Wall, Demarcus Cousins, Gordon Hayward, Paul George, Greg Monroe
2011: Kyrie Irving, Klay Thompson, Kemba Walker, Tristian Thompson
2012: Anthony Davis, Andre Drummond, Bradley Beal, Damion Lillard
2013: bleh
2014: Andrew Wiggins, Jabari Parker, Joel Embiid,
2015: Karl Anthony Towns, Deangelo Russell, Joel Embiid, Justice Winslow

OBVIOUSLY not every one of these picks was thought of as a sure thing at the time but Specifically the last two years I can say for certain they were all held in high regard and held a lot more value than this year.

MOST of these players weren't any more highly rated pre-draft than Kris Dunn or Bender.

Embiid you have twice - not in 2015. Winslow was slated to go lower.
2013 did happen.
Drummond had big question marks and didn't even go top 5.
Lillard had question marks from a small school/ senior background.
Klay Thompson went 11th overall.

You're just listing some of the best players from recent drafts, not how they were regarded going in.

Re: Khris middleton for the 3rd?
« Reply #86 on: June 21, 2016, 07:51:22 PM »

Offline Smokeeye123

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2374
  • Tommy Points: 156
Yes, yes they do. Most of the time it is not considered a two player draft with a steep drop off in talent after 2. It's usually considered a more gradual slide. Not this year. Almost every scout you talk to says it drops off a cliff after 2. Look at the last 5 drafts and the level of talent in the top 10.

2010: John Wall, Demarcus Cousins, Gordon Hayward, Paul George, Greg Monroe
2011: Kyrie Irving, Klay Thompson, Kemba Walker, Tristian Thompson
2012: Anthony Davis, Andre Drummond, Bradley Beal, Damion Lillard
2013: bleh
2014: Andrew Wiggins, Jabari Parker, Joel Embiid,
2015: Karl Anthony Towns, Deangelo Russell, Joel Embiid, Justice Winslow

OBVIOUSLY not every one of these picks was thought of as a sure thing at the time but Specifically the last two years I can say for certain they were all held in high regard and held a lot more value than this year.

MOST of these players weren't any more highly rated pre-draft than Kris Dunn or Bender.

Embiid you have twice - not in 2015. Winslow was slated to go lower.
2013 did happen.
Drummond had big question marks and didn't even go top 5.
Lillard had question marks from a small school/ senior background.
Klay Thompson went 11th overall.

You're just listing some of the best players from recent drafts, not how they were regarded going in.

2013 was a horrible draft class so I didn't include it. And I had some minor details wrong but the point is is that  this draft is weak when compared to the average draft. Besides the Anthony Bennett draft  this is easily the weakest one in the last 5 years. Yes I can't be positive it will be considered that in 4 years time because I don't have the benefit of hindsight. If you believe all the scouts and writers though, it is.

The league isn't some constant thing where the value of picks is always the same year to year. It depends on the time, the place, whose available, and who is looking to trade.

Someone mentioned the Ray Allen trade that happened 10 years ago. Clearly the Bucks got hosed on that one. Teams have been hosed with trading picks so often in the last 10 years that I think GM's are weary now more than ever to trade for lottery picks unless they are getting a sure thing. After #2 there is no sure thing. Your'e just getting your pick of a bunch of shiny question marks. The #3 in this draft just isn't that valuable, it's the truth. If it was we would have an easier time making these trades.

Re: Khris middleton for the 3rd?
« Reply #87 on: June 21, 2016, 08:09:51 PM »

Offline jambr380

  • K.C. Jones
  • *************
  • Posts: 13002
  • Tommy Points: 1756
  • Everybody knows what's best for you
I'm hoping Ainge can somehow pull off a trade that can net us Cousins and Middleton. Middleton and Cousins would be one of the most devastating combos in the NBA. Middleton is a sniper. He can also pull up in the mid range, and his length and versatility would certainly be useful in any team in the NBA.

Always wondered if Bradley plus maybe the '17 Brooklyn pick, and a few second rounders, and filler would net us Middleton.

Would I give up the 3rd pick? Sure, if Ainge seriously believed Middleton would still be the better player than Bender, and Dunn. I just don't see Middleton as a go to guy, or a franchise player, but he could be the 1B/2nd go to scorer, which I can see Middleton becoming in the future.

Do you mean Cousins? There are a number of people who would be disappointed in giving up the #3 for Middleton. Giving up a similar pick (in a better draft) plus a huge asset in Bradley seems like a HUGE overpay.

But, yes, Cousins and Middleton would be great.

Re: Khris middleton for the 3rd?
« Reply #88 on: June 21, 2016, 09:40:16 PM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11134
  • Tommy Points: 1304
  • I'm a Paul Heyman guy.
Middleton and 10 for 3 and 16.

This is the one.

Like Khris Middleton. Good scorer, good shooter, good defender. I'd do the deal, but not for the #3 straight up. I'd add a second rounder for that too just to make the deal worthwhile for Milwaukee.
2019 CStrong Historical Draft 2000s OKC Thunder.
PG: Jrue Holiday / Isaiah Thomas / Larry Hughes
SG: Paul George / Aaron McKie / Bradley Beal
SF: Paul Pierce / Tayshaun Prince / Brian Scalabrine
PF: LaMarcus Aldridge / Shareef Abdur-Raheem / Ben Simmons
C: Jermaine O'neal / Ben Wallace

Re: Khris middleton for the 3rd?
« Reply #89 on: June 21, 2016, 09:43:24 PM »

Offline max215

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8448
  • Tommy Points: 624
I like Middleton a lot, but this is exactly how you wind up on the treadmill.
Isaiah, you were lightning in a bottle.

DKC Clippers