Author Topic: IDEA: Trade for Butler and Love, if Love's value has taken a hit  (Read 1173 times)

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Offline saltlover

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A few things upfront:

1) I'm not a fan of trading established players for Jimmy Butler.  I think highly of Butler, but moving Smart, Crowder, or Bradley for him, while also trading a top pick or two, would not be a move that takes us to the next level.  Same goes for Love, in trades in which we send out KO.  These rosters wind up with 2-3 stars, 3-4 rotational guys, and a bunch of minimum deals.  No thanks.  If you think that some of these rotation guys need to be traded, there are zillion such threads out there.

2) I do think Love's value has taken a hit.  He's not a star that can fit on any team.  You need the right players around him.  The right players are not two ball-dominant players who really like clearouts and a clear paint to work with.  He's a terrible fit on Cleveland.  Any third star would be, including Melo.  They just need more guys who want to stand out on the perimeter for whatever kickouts James and Irving are willing to send their way.  They'd be much better converting Loves $21 million salary into two players making $10 million who fit that role.  Love's defense has also been somewhat exposed, which makes his salary a bit bloated.

Accordingly, I propose the following set of trades:

1) #3, Young, Hunter, Memphis 1st for Butler.

If Chicago trades Butler for the chance to pick Dunn, a Rose trade isn't far behind.  Coupled with the likely free agency departures of Noah and Gasol, the Bulls seem like a team that should try to acquire as much young talent and future picks as possible.   This loses to #5 and Wiggins if Minny is willing to actually offer that, but I think beats #5 and Levine, mostly because at #5, the Bulls might not get Dunn.

2) #16, #23, #35, and 2017 Minny 2nd for Love. 

Yes, that's as high as I'd go.  And it's not a bad offer.  Two first, two high seconds.  This is a deep draft, and there's a lot of value.  Furthermore, Cleveland doesn't want the picks.  They want to trade the rights to those picks in trades.  The Cavs also obtain a $21.1 million trade exception, which they can pair with said picks to acquire players in both direct trades and sign-and-trades.  If the Cavs are going to tell Kevin Love to go stand on the perimeter and stay there like he's Ryan Anderson, why not pay Ryan Anderson $15 million a year, and work out a sign-and-trade with New Orleans, sending them one of the picks you acquired?  Maybe you can work out something with Kent Bazemore and the Hawks, if they decide to restructure their roster and pivot towards the future.  Courtney Lee is a wing who can shoot and play defense.  Or maybe you just want a lock-down defender -- Memphis might hit their last hurrah, and Tony Allen is very affordable.  In any case, Cleveland can't trade a 1st until 2020, and is out of seconds until that time as well.  Trading Love to us acquires the TPE and assets to acquire multiple players who'd be of more use collectively, especially combined with their other $9.7 million TPE for trading Varejao.

Anyway, those trades combined would give us a roster of the following, with about $4.5 million in cap space:

PG: IT, Rozier
Wings: Butler, AB, Smart
Swings (3/4 hybrids): Crowder, Jerebko
Bigs: Love, Amir, Olynyk, Mickey

That $4.5 million cap space is also important, as Evan Turner has a cap hold of $4.45 million.  This would mean we could re-sign ET to the full Early Bird exception, which should be an average deal of about $7 mil/year.  Finally, we could fill out the roster with the $2.9 million room exception, and a a couple of our second round picks, including #31 overall.

But what about KD:

If you believe KD is going to sign one more year in OKC and then test free agency, you'll very much like that this roster should have about $35 million in cap space next year (pending whatever happens with the CBA).  KD's max should be about &36.5 million.  If KD wants to come to Boston, $1.5 million will be easy to clear (goodbye Rozier).

OR

If KD wants to come this year, Amir, JJ, Olynyk, and Rozier or Mickey  provide the salaries to match in a sign-and-trade.  OKC would have a tough time playing along, but the 2017 Brooklyn pick should move the needle, especially if Durant plays hardball and says the alternative is he signs a 1-year deal and then leaves no matter what.  I don't find that likely, (his deal would need to be a minimum of three years not including options, so he couldn't take advantage of next year's cap bump), but the Celtics could take advantage if that occurred.

I understand this proposal require an aggressive assumption about Kevin Love's value, but the two trades would essentially create a roster similar to last year's, except that Love replaces Sully (upgrade) and Butler is added while lesser players get fewer minutes, but are still in the rotation to provide depth and lineup flexibility.  To me, that's a team that can definitely challenge the Cavs as is.  Furthermore, it still has the flexibility to acquire KD, either this year or in the future.

Re: IDEA: Trade for Butler and Love, if Love's value has taken a hit
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2016, 02:23:22 PM »

Offline footey

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Offering picks to Cleveland for Love doesn't not meet their objective, which is to get better now.

Plus I have zero interest in any trade that nets us Love, no matter how favorable.  I feel his value declining fast.

Re: IDEA: Trade for Butler and Love, if Love's value has taken a hit
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2016, 02:26:22 PM »

Offline saltlover

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Offering picks to Cleveland for Love doesn't not meet their objective, which is to get better now.

Plus I have zero interest in any trade that nets us Love, no matter how favorable.  I feel his value declining fast.

Did you read my rationale for it makes sense for Cleveland? I cover how it gets them better now.

Re: IDEA: Trade for Butler and Love, if Love's value has taken a hit
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2016, 02:41:56 PM »

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Offering picks to Cleveland for Love doesn't not meet their objective, which is to get better now.

Plus I have zero interest in any trade that nets us Love, no matter how favorable.  I feel his value declining fast.

Did you read my rationale for it makes sense for Cleveland? I cover how it gets them better now.

The only reason I think it's somewhat plausible is because LeBron would totally collude with another player making about $21 million a year or less (like Chris Paul at $22 million, Blake Griffin at $21 million, Marc Gasol at $21 million, Brook Lopez at $21 million, James Harden at $16 million, etc) that he would trade the exception for them. 

Re: IDEA: Trade for Butler and Love, if Love's value has taken a hit
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2016, 02:52:05 PM »

Offline saltlover

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Offering picks to Cleveland for Love doesn't not meet their objective, which is to get better now.

Plus I have zero interest in any trade that nets us Love, no matter how favorable.  I feel his value declining fast.

Did you read my rationale for it makes sense for Cleveland? I cover how it gets them better now.

The only reason I think it's somewhat plausible is because LeBron would totally collude with another player making about $21 million a year or less (like Chris Paul at $22 million, Blake Griffin at $21 million, Marc Gasol at $21 million, Brook Lopez at $21 million, James Harden at $16 million, etc) that he would trade the exception for them.

If LeBron is able to convince a team to trade their star straight up for Kevin Love, or for the picks I'm proposing we trade for Love, then he's a better GM than we give him credit for.

Re: IDEA: Trade for Butler and Love, if Love's value has taken a hit
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2016, 03:26:39 PM »

Online jpotter33

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Eh, I still doubt that Cleveland wants anything less than at least one of Crowder or Bradley. I think the Anderson deal does actually make sense for them and NO would play along just to get another pick in the deal, but I wonder how "star-struck" Lebron and the Cavs are where they think they need another star to pair with Lebron and Kyrie.

Even without KD, I'd still be very, very happy with this. I think you'd at least have to throw Rozier in the Butler trade, too, because they envied him last year in the draft, too, though that certainly shouldn't stop you from trading for Butler. They could very well try a two point guard lineup with him and Dunn, as well.

But if you didn't throw Rozier in the pot, you'd have an interesting dilemma on your hands - who starts among Bradley, Butler, and Crowder and who backs up who? Obviously Butler, but do you play him at the 2 with Crowder or at the 3 with Bradley? There's benefits both ways.

With Crowder - much better size in backcourt, Butler's natural position

With Bradley - better individual ball stopper, better shooting, better rotation with Rozier, Smart, and Crowder being the 1/2/3 to backup the starters.

That's also an almost absolutely perfect surrounding cast for Love. Hell, imagine the defensive lineup that you could throw out ther of Smart, Bradley, Butler, Crowder, and Amir lol Would that be the absolute best five-man defensive unit to ever step out on the court?

Re: IDEA: Trade for Butler and Love, if Love's value has taken a hit
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2016, 03:59:49 PM »

Offline Irish Stew

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If it is true that Chicago will not consider a trade with Minnesota that does not include Wiggins, then it would seem that we are the only likely trade candidate left. If I'm Chicago , I wouldn't consider a trade with the Celtics that doesn't include either Bradley or Crowder plus #3 and something like the Memphis pick that you mentioned. Butler now has a below market contract and I would just keep him if I don't get one of those two. I'm not sure that Young and Hunter will ever be rotation players, much less starters. The Cleveland trade is a clever way for them to get rid of Love for draft choices and then acquire proven NBA talent. TP

Re: IDEA: Trade for Butler and Love, if Love's value has taken a hit
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2016, 04:07:54 PM »

Offline saltlover

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Eh, I still doubt that Cleveland wants anything less than at least one of Crowder or Bradley. I think the Anderson deal does actually make sense for them and NO would play along just to get another pick in the deal, but I wonder how "star-struck" Lebron and the Cavs are where they think they need another star to pair with Lebron and Kyrie.

Even without KD, I'd still be very, very happy with this. I think you'd at least have to throw Rozier in the Butler trade, too, because they envied him last year in the draft, too, though that certainly shouldn't stop you from trading for Butler. They could very well try a two point guard lineup with him and Dunn, as well.

But if you didn't throw Rozier in the pot, you'd have an interesting dilemma on your hands - who starts among Bradley, Butler, and Crowder and who backs up who? Obviously Butler, but do you play him at the 2 with Crowder or at the 3 with Bradley? There's benefits both ways.

With Crowder - much better size in backcourt, Butler's natural position

With Bradley - better individual ball stopper, better shooting, better rotation with Rozier, Smart, and Crowder being the 1/2/3 to backup the starters.

That's also an almost absolutely perfect surrounding cast for Love. Hell, imagine the defensive lineup that you could throw out ther of Smart, Bradley, Butler, Crowder, and Amir lol Would that be the absolute best five-man defensive unit to ever step out on the court?

I agree it's possible Cleveland won't take anything short of Crowder, in which case no thanks.  However, I'm not convinced that's the case, and it's why I qualified the entire post with "IF" -- if the Cavs still have dreams of three stars working in concert, then I think that Boston is better off letting them dream.

But yes, I really liked the defensive possibilities.  I don't know if you start IT, AB, Butler, Crowder, and Love, or IT, Butler, Crowder, Love, and Amir, but in either case it's a roster that can both score and play defense, and create a lot of interesting lineup combinations.  If KD came this year or next it'd be gravy, but without him I think that roster should be a true contender.