Author Topic: Another Bender Post  (Read 8489 times)

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Re: Another Bender Post
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2016, 11:44:30 PM »

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Have you guys ever played basketball?  Anthony Davis is a force of nature.  A dominant 2-way player who impacts every single possession.  Bender is an end-of-the-bench role player in Israel.  He hovers around the 3 point line and almost never impacts a play unless he drains an open shot.  It's the difference between Larry Bird and Kelly Olynyk. 

Bender's "feel for the game" is his worst attribute.  He looks like a wrestler or rugby player who just learned the game a few months ago.

I can't disagree more.

Have you ever played a pickup game against the high school star in your town? Have you ever noticed that 30-40 year old guys (if they are in shape) can normally hang with stars like that just because they are bigger, stronger, and more experienced?

That's Bender in the Israel league. he does what he is told as a boy among men. And he does it pretty well.

But Bender is of the same age Davis would have been entering his year at Kentucky. Imagine putting Bender in the same situation this year. I think he would easily have similar numbers and dominance.

I think Bender can be similar to Davis defensively, but I worry that he won't be able to gain the confidence by playing against college boys. It may take a few years, but I think he can develop.

Offensively, he has the raw abilities and feel. He just needs a specific role and confidence in that specific role. Start with spotups and rim runs. Move to pick-and-pops and attacking closeouts. Then work on hooks, dropsteps, and other ISO moves.
I guess I just have to agree to disagree.  His feel for the game is VERY BAD.  He looks lost at all times.  He does have NBA 3pt range, but he almost never impacts the game.

Here's a tool I fall back to:  if I were playing in a local pickup game, except my life depended on the game, where would I pick each player?  i.e. I would die if I lost the game.  Where would I pick Bender?

Well, definitely not in my top 20 among this years draftees.  Dunn, Hield, Murray, Valentine and easily 10 others would be well ahead of him.

Let me offer a comparison.  When Larry Bird was 18 years old he was putting up 30 points and 15 rebounds.  He was a transcendent talent.  Bender wanders around the perimeter, sometimes finds open shots, and basically never impacts an israeli league game. I honestly think that Bender isn't the best NBA prospect on the Macabbi team right now.  18 years old is not an excuse for being a bad basketball player.

Is "bad 18-year-old professional basketball player" an oxymoron?

LOL. Awesome.

Re: Another Bender Post
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2016, 11:56:52 PM »

Offline loco_91

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Here's why I think this is so interesting: Davis was 19 when he was drafted, but Bender will be 18 when he is drafted. Imagine if Bender went to Kentucky this coming season and Kentucky really didn't have another good center. What would his numbers be at Kentucky? Davis was 14 ppg, 10 rpg, 5 bpg, 1 spg, 1 apg. Would the 7'1'' Bender average 15 ppg, 8 rpg, 4 bpg, 2 spg, 3 apg? Imagine how teams would be salivating over him if he had the ability to use his exceptional length against college athletes instead of grown men.

This is an interesting thought experiment. He'd have a way better season than Skal did, that's for sure. But Bender isn't really in the same mold as AD overall, and I'm not sure he would've thrived in Kentucky, where Calipari expects his bigs to play primarily in the paint.

Re: Another Bender Post
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2016, 12:00:38 AM »

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Here's why I think this is so interesting: Davis was 19 when he was drafted, but Bender will be 18 when he is drafted. Imagine if Bender went to Kentucky this coming season and Kentucky really didn't have another good center. What would his numbers be at Kentucky? Davis was 14 ppg, 10 rpg, 5 bpg, 1 spg, 1 apg. Would the 7'1'' Bender average 15 ppg, 8 rpg, 4 bpg, 2 spg, 3 apg? Imagine how teams would be salivating over him if he had the ability to use his exceptional length against college athletes instead of grown men.

This is an interesting thought experiment. He'd have a way better season than Skal did, that's for sure. But Bender isn't really in the same mold as AD overall, and I'm not sure he would've thrived in Kentucky, where Calipari expects his bigs to play primarily in the paint.

Thanks!!! I actually think a coach like Cal would be perfect. Like when KAT was forced to play inside and he didn't like it, but it rounded him out into a more complete basketball player.

Most of Kentucky's big men look uncomfortable early in the year with the physicality that Cal expects them to play.

Re: Another Bender Post
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2016, 12:19:17 AM »

Offline loco_91

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Here's why I think this is so interesting: Davis was 19 when he was drafted, but Bender will be 18 when he is drafted. Imagine if Bender went to Kentucky this coming season and Kentucky really didn't have another good center. What would his numbers be at Kentucky? Davis was 14 ppg, 10 rpg, 5 bpg, 1 spg, 1 apg. Would the 7'1'' Bender average 15 ppg, 8 rpg, 4 bpg, 2 spg, 3 apg? Imagine how teams would be salivating over him if he had the ability to use his exceptional length against college athletes instead of grown men.

This is an interesting thought experiment. He'd have a way better season than Skal did, that's for sure. But Bender isn't really in the same mold as AD overall, and I'm not sure he would've thrived in Kentucky, where Calipari expects his bigs to play primarily in the paint.

Thanks!!! I actually think a coach like Cal would be perfect. Like when KAT was forced to play inside and he didn't like it, but it rounded him out into a more complete basketball player.

Most of Kentucky's big men look uncomfortable early in the year with the physicality that Cal expects them to play.

Bender does have that edge to him that Cal likes. He's tough + competitive unlike Lab. Would be great for his development, though I'm not sure it would be great for his stats.

Re: Another Bender Post
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2016, 11:54:04 AM »

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Have you guys ever played basketball?  Anthony Davis is a force of nature.  A dominant 2-way player who impacts every single possession.  Bender is an end-of-the-bench role player in Israel.  He hovers around the 3 point line and almost never impacts a play unless he drains an open shot.  It's the difference between Larry Bird and Kelly Olynyk. 

Bender's "feel for the game" is his worst attribute.  He looks like a wrestler or rugby player who just learned the game a few months ago.

I can't disagree more.

Have you ever played a pickup game against the high school star in your town? Have you ever noticed that 30-40 year old guys (if they are in shape) can normally hang with stars like that just because they are bigger, stronger, and more experienced?

That's Bender in the Israel league. he does what he is told as a boy among men. And he does it pretty well.

But Bender is of the same age Davis would have been entering his year at Kentucky. Imagine putting Bender in the same situation this year. I think he would easily have similar numbers and dominance.

I think Bender can be similar to Davis defensively, but I worry that he won't be able to gain the confidence by playing against college boys. It may take a few years, but I think he can develop.

Offensively, he has the raw abilities and feel. He just needs a specific role and confidence in that specific role. Start with spotups and rim runs. Move to pick-and-pops and attacking closeouts. Then work on hooks, dropsteps, and other ISO moves.
I guess I just have to agree to disagree.  His feel for the game is VERY BAD.  He looks lost at all times.  He does have NBA 3pt range, but he almost never impacts the game.

Here's a tool I fall back to:  if I were playing in a local pickup game, except my life depended on the game, where would I pick each player?  i.e. I would die if I lost the game.  Where would I pick Bender?

Well, definitely not in my top 20 among this years draftees.  Dunn, Hield, Murray, Valentine and easily 10 others would be well ahead of him.

Let me offer a comparison.  When Larry Bird was 18 years old he was putting up 30 points and 15 rebounds.  He was a transcendent talent.  Bender wanders around the perimeter, sometimes finds open shots, and basically never impacts an israeli league game. I honestly think that Bender isn't the best NBA prospect on the Macabbi team right now.  18 years old is not an excuse for being a bad basketball player.

Is "bad 18-year-old professional basketball player" an oxymoron?

LOL. Awesome.
LOL.  Touche.  He's 18 and he's 7 feet tall and he'll have a professional career somewhere, so he's good at something.  Just not good enough to be the 3rd pick in the NBA draft. 

Re: Another Bender Post
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2016, 02:37:25 PM »

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http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celtics/2016/05/celts_trying_hard_to_size_up_possible_no_3_pick_dragan_bender

Austin Ainge communicated what I was trying to say. Young prospects don't get a lot of playing time in Europe because coaches don't want to develop. They want to win.

Re: Another Bender Post
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2016, 02:45:34 PM »

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Here's why I think this is so interesting: Davis was 19 when he was drafted, but Bender will be 18 when he is drafted. Imagine if Bender went to Kentucky this coming season and Kentucky really didn't have another good center. What would his numbers be at Kentucky? Davis was 14 ppg, 10 rpg, 5 bpg, 1 spg, 1 apg. Would the 7'1'' Bender average 15 ppg, 8 rpg, 4 bpg, 2 spg, 3 apg? Imagine how teams would be salivating over him if he had the ability to use his exceptional length against college athletes instead of grown men.

Oooh imagine if we drafted him at 3, but then instead of sending him to the D-League or something, we sent him to Kentucky.  He's getting paid his rookie salary either way if he's on our roster, so it's not like the NCAAM is paying him to play basketball.  Coach Cal only cares that his guys get drafted highly and his team wins, he doesn't care if they only stay one year.  The NCAAM gets another talented, marketable player.  We get him in late March / early April for our roster after he just had a really intense basketball clinic essentially. 

Re: Another Bender Post
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2016, 02:47:03 PM »

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http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celtics/2016/05/celts_trying_hard_to_size_up_possible_no_3_pick_dragan_bender

Austin Ainge communicated what I was trying to say. Young prospects don't get a lot of playing time in Europe because coaches don't want to develop. They want to win.

Jordan Mickey's inability to win minutes is more of a mark against Mickey than Bender's lack of minutes in Israel is a mark against Bender.
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Re: Another Bender Post
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2016, 02:50:32 PM »

Offline loco_91

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Here's why I think this is so interesting: Davis was 19 when he was drafted, but Bender will be 18 when he is drafted. Imagine if Bender went to Kentucky this coming season and Kentucky really didn't have another good center. What would his numbers be at Kentucky? Davis was 14 ppg, 10 rpg, 5 bpg, 1 spg, 1 apg. Would the 7'1'' Bender average 15 ppg, 8 rpg, 4 bpg, 2 spg, 3 apg? Imagine how teams would be salivating over him if he had the ability to use his exceptional length against college athletes instead of grown men.

Oooh imagine if we drafted him at 3, but then instead of sending him to the D-League or something, we sent him to Kentucky.  He's getting paid his rookie salary either way if he's on our roster, so it's not like the NCAAM is paying him to play basketball.  Coach Cal only cares that his guys get drafted highly and his team wins, he doesn't care if they only stay one year.  The NCAAM gets another talented, marketable player.  We get him in late March / early April for our roster after he just had a really intense basketball clinic essentially.

I really wish this was possible. Would be great for so many prospects. Unfortunately, the NCAA's dumb amateurism rules would prohibit it.

Re: Another Bender Post
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2016, 03:14:18 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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Let me offer a comparison.  When Larry Bird was 18 years old he was putting up 30 points and 15 rebounds.  He was a transcendent talent.  Bender wanders around the perimeter, sometimes finds open shots, and basically never impacts an israeli league game. I honestly think that Bender isn't the best NBA prospect on the Macabbi team right now.  18 years old is not an excuse for being a bad basketball player.

Just for the record, when Larry Bird was 18 he was hauling garbage in French Lick, Indiana.

He turned 21 his "freshman" year at Indiana State, when he averaged 33 and 13.

If Bender had started college this past year, we'd have to wait until his senior year to get a relevant comp to Bird's freshman season, age-wise.

Not saying I know anything about how good Bender will be. Just that Bird's case is not apples-to-apples.

Re: Another Bender Post
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2016, 03:17:47 PM »

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Let me offer a comparison.  When Larry Bird was 18 years old he was putting up 30 points and 15 rebounds.  He was a transcendent talent.  Bender wanders around the perimeter, sometimes finds open shots, and basically never impacts an israeli league game. I honestly think that Bender isn't the best NBA prospect on the Macabbi team right now.  18 years old is not an excuse for being a bad basketball player.

Just for the record, when Larry Bird was 18 he was hauling garbage in French Lick, Indiana.

He turned 21 his "freshman" year at Indiana State, when he averaged 33 and 13.

If Bender had started college this past year, we'd have to wait until his senior year to get a relevant comp to Bird's freshman season, age-wise.

Not saying I know anything about how good Bender will be. Just that Bird's case is not apples-to-apples.
TP!

Even the Bender/Porzingis comps aren't apples to apples because Porzingis entered the draft a full year older than Bender is now
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Re: Another Bender Post
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2016, 03:31:53 PM »

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http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celtics/2016/05/celts_trying_hard_to_size_up_possible_no_3_pick_dragan_bender

Austin Ainge communicated what I was trying to say. Young prospects don't get a lot of playing time in Europe because coaches don't want to develop. They want to win.

Jordan Mickey's inability to win minutes is more of a mark against Mickey than Bender's lack of minutes in Israel is a mark against Bender.

I don't agree. His point was that coaches in the Euroleague are pressured to win games, not develop prospects. That coach knows that Bender is gone to the NBA next year. Why wouldn't he play more experienced guys who will be on his team next year? Especially if Bender would need a learning curve just to get used to the physical play.

Re: Another Bender Post
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2016, 07:14:11 PM »

Offline loco_91

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Let me offer a comparison.  When Larry Bird was 18 years old he was putting up 30 points and 15 rebounds.  He was a transcendent talent.  Bender wanders around the perimeter, sometimes finds open shots, and basically never impacts an israeli league game. I honestly think that Bender isn't the best NBA prospect on the Macabbi team right now.  18 years old is not an excuse for being a bad basketball player.

Just for the record, when Larry Bird was 18 he was hauling garbage in French Lick, Indiana.

He turned 21 his "freshman" year at Indiana State, when he averaged 33 and 13.

If Bender had started college this past year, we'd have to wait until his senior year to get a relevant comp to Bird's freshman season, age-wise.

Not saying I know anything about how good Bender will be. Just that Bird's case is not apples-to-apples.

Yeah. Also, if the standard is "he's not as good as Larry Bird", well, anyway.

Re: Another Bender Post
« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2016, 07:46:05 PM »

Offline PickNRoll

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Let me offer a comparison.  When Larry Bird was 18 years old he was putting up 30 points and 15 rebounds.  He was a transcendent talent.  Bender wanders around the perimeter, sometimes finds open shots, and basically never impacts an israeli league game. I honestly think that Bender isn't the best NBA prospect on the Macabbi team right now.  18 years old is not an excuse for being a bad basketball player.

Just for the record, when Larry Bird was 18 he was hauling garbage in French Lick, Indiana.

He turned 21 his "freshman" year at Indiana State, when he averaged 33 and 13.

If Bender had started college this past year, we'd have to wait until his senior year to get a relevant comp to Bird's freshman season, age-wise.

Not saying I know anything about how good Bender will be. Just that Bird's case is not apples-to-apples.
Bird was born Dec 7, 1956.  His Freshman year was 76-77.  Pretty straightforward.  He was 19 when the season tipped off and turned 20 that year.  Close enough for me. 

My point is, if you have no game when you're 19, you don't magically wake up as Larry Bird when you turn 20. Bird was always supernatural.  Bender never will be. 

Re: Another Bender Post
« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2016, 07:58:47 PM »

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Let me offer a comparison.  When Larry Bird was 18 years old he was putting up 30 points and 15 rebounds.  He was a transcendent talent.  Bender wanders around the perimeter, sometimes finds open shots, and basically never impacts an israeli league game. I honestly think that Bender isn't the best NBA prospect on the Macabbi team right now.  18 years old is not an excuse for being a bad basketball player.

Just for the record, when Larry Bird was 18 he was hauling garbage in French Lick, Indiana.

He turned 21 his "freshman" year at Indiana State, when he averaged 33 and 13.

If Bender had started college this past year, we'd have to wait until his senior year to get a relevant comp to Bird's freshman season, age-wise.

Not saying I know anything about how good Bender will be. Just that Bird's case is not apples-to-apples.

Yeah. Also, if the standard is "he's not as good as Larry Bird", well, anyway.
"Bender isn't good now because he's not even 19 yet."   That was the premise of the discussion, and I disagree.  If you're a good player, you should show something by the time you're 19.  Maybe you're redshirted or buried on the bench.  I get that.  But players with superstar potential jump off the screen, even at 19 years old. Hence, the Bird reference.

To actually compare the 2 is comical.  Bird would outplay Bender with his left hand, blindfolded. That's obv not useful. It's hard to find a  comp for Bender because when you watch the games, he doesn't do anything.  What do you call a tall guy who scores 4 points?