The problem for Ainge with trading

[BitterJim]

What do you guys actually think a first team all defensive player who isn't an all star is worth? 

That would be Tony Allen.
Andrew Bogut was 2nd team last year
Roy Hibbert and Patrick Beverly two years ago....wait...was Hibbert an all star then? He has made one star game I think.
Anderson Varejo and Thabo Sefalosa in 2009-10
Shane Battier and Bruce Bowen and Marcus Camby back in 07-08

Do you suppose the Celtics phone is just blowing up over Avery Bradley? You think Ainge is just sifting through offers that are tough to decide about because Avery has made an all defensive team?  Because he's not. It's not happening. There isn't a single team out there sorta gathering up assets to make a big run at Bradley. It's not happening. And when Ainge makes a call and says "Ok, so for Okafor I'd offer Bradley and ...." if the very next thing out of his mouth isn't "the third pick and..." the next thing he hears is "click."

Okafor....he is an asset. He is an asset because he has a possibility of going to multiple all star games. Like between 3 and 7. Bradley miiiiigggghhhhhtttt get to one.

I am so so so tired of hearing how wonderfully great the All Defensive team is. Like if you could just put together a team of the guys I mentioned up above you would be more than a 5 seed. When you were a kid did you have pictures of Bruce Bowen on your wall? Did anyone? No. They didn't. They had pictures of all stars and various players that averaged over 20 points per game unless your team made the three seed and was eliminated in the first round of the playoffs in which case maybe you had a picture of an all defensive player on your wall.

Congratulations, you successfully defeated the straw man you made up and proceded to beat it onto the ground

No one's suggesting that AB is an all star.  But (correct me if I'm wrong), do you need to be an all star to be one of the top 6 guys on a contender?  Or to start on a contender?

Bradley would be a starter on the Cavs or OKC (not GSW, Klay Thompson is better).  I'd say that makes him better than the 7th man on a contender, but that's just me

[Eja117]

What do you guys actually think a first team all defensive player who isn't an all star is worth? 

That would be Tony Allen.
Andrew Bogut was 2nd team last year
Roy Hibbert and Patrick Beverly two years ago....wait...was Hibbert an all star then? He has made one star game I think.
Anderson Varejo and Thabo Sefalosa in 2009-10
Shane Battier and Bruce Bowen and Marcus Camby back in 07-08

Do you suppose the Celtics phone is just blowing up over Avery Bradley? You think Ainge is just sifting through offers that are tough to decide about because Avery has made an all defensive team?  Because he's not. It's not happening. There isn't a single team out there sorta gathering up assets to make a big run at Bradley. It's not happening. And when Ainge makes a call and says "Ok, so for Okafor I'd offer Bradley and ...." if the very next thing out of his mouth isn't "the third pick and..." the next thing he hears is "click."

Okafor....he is an asset. He is an asset because he has a possibility of going to multiple all star games. Like between 3 and 7. Bradley miiiiigggghhhhhtttt get to one.

I am so so so tired of hearing how wonderfully great the All Defensive team is. Like if you could just put together a team of the guys I mentioned up above you would be more than a 5 seed. When you were a kid did you have pictures of Bruce Bowen on your wall? Did anyone? No. They didn't. They had pictures of all stars and various players that averaged over 20 points per game unless your team made the three seed and was eliminated in the first round of the playoffs in which case maybe you had a picture of an all defensive player on your wall.

Congratulations, you successfully defeated the straw man you made up and proceded to beat it onto the ground

No one's suggesting that AB is an all star.  But (correct me if I'm wrong), do you need to be an all star to be one of the top 6 guys on a contender?  Or to start on a contender?

Bradley would be a starter on the Cavs or OKC (not GSW, Klay Thompson is better).  I'd say that makes him better than the 7th man on a contender, but that's just me

Oh ok. I guess he'd be like the 5th or 6th best guy on those teams. So what's the great thing we can get for him?  Now that he's the 5th best guy on one of those teams. 

[BitterJim]

Delonte, top 5 pick, Al Jefferson, Seabass, Wally, Gerald Green, Ryan Gomes > top 3 pick, Smart, Rozier, RJ, Jordan Mickey, KO, Jae, AB

The group you think is better? It won 24 games.
The group you think is worse? It won 48 games. And it has the higher draft pick.

Thanks for playing, please try again.

Ok. Then let's see the fireworks. Looking forward to it. I guess we're winning the championship next year.

Perhaps it's possible the market has changed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[BitterJim]

What do you guys actually think a first team all defensive player who isn't an all star is worth? 

That would be Tony Allen.
Andrew Bogut was 2nd team last year
Roy Hibbert and Patrick Beverly two years ago....wait...was Hibbert an all star then? He has made one star game I think.
Anderson Varejo and Thabo Sefalosa in 2009-10
Shane Battier and Bruce Bowen and Marcus Camby back in 07-08

Do you suppose the Celtics phone is just blowing up over Avery Bradley? You think Ainge is just sifting through offers that are tough to decide about because Avery has made an all defensive team?  Because he's not. It's not happening. There isn't a single team out there sorta gathering up assets to make a big run at Bradley. It's not happening. And when Ainge makes a call and says "Ok, so for Okafor I'd offer Bradley and ...." if the very next thing out of his mouth isn't "the third pick and..." the next thing he hears is "click."

Okafor....he is an asset. He is an asset because he has a possibility of going to multiple all star games. Like between 3 and 7. Bradley miiiiigggghhhhhtttt get to one.

I am so so so tired of hearing how wonderfully great the All Defensive team is. Like if you could just put together a team of the guys I mentioned up above you would be more than a 5 seed. When you were a kid did you have pictures of Bruce Bowen on your wall? Did anyone? No. They didn't. They had pictures of all stars and various players that averaged over 20 points per game unless your team made the three seed and was eliminated in the first round of the playoffs in which case maybe you had a picture of an all defensive player on your wall.

Congratulations, you successfully defeated the straw man you made up and proceded to beat it onto the ground

No one's suggesting that AB is an all star.  But (correct me if I'm wrong), do you need to be an all star to be one of the top 6 guys on a contender?  Or to start on a contender?

Bradley would be a starter on the Cavs or OKC (not GSW, Klay Thompson is better).  I'd say that makes him better than the 7th man on a contender, but that's just me

Oh ok. I guess he'd be like the 5th or 6th best guy on those teams. So what's the great thing we can get for him?  Now that he's the 5th best guy on one of those teams.

So, a starter?  Do you see how a starter is a significant upgrade from a 7th man?  If you do, then you can understand why no one can take the original post seriously.  It's so pessimistic it's not even funny

[Eja117]

What do you guys actually think a first team all defensive player who isn't an all star is worth? 

That would be Tony Allen.
Andrew Bogut was 2nd team last year
Roy Hibbert and Patrick Beverly two years ago....wait...was Hibbert an all star then? He has made one star game I think.
Anderson Varejo and Thabo Sefalosa in 2009-10
Shane Battier and Bruce Bowen and Marcus Camby back in 07-08

Do you suppose the Celtics phone is just blowing up over Avery Bradley? You think Ainge is just sifting through offers that are tough to decide about because Avery has made an all defensive team?  Because he's not. It's not happening. There isn't a single team out there sorta gathering up assets to make a big run at Bradley. It's not happening. And when Ainge makes a call and says "Ok, so for Okafor I'd offer Bradley and ...." if the very next thing out of his mouth isn't "the third pick and..." the next thing he hears is "click."

Okafor....he is an asset. He is an asset because he has a possibility of going to multiple all star games. Like between 3 and 7. Bradley miiiiigggghhhhhtttt get to one.

I am so so so tired of hearing how wonderfully great the All Defensive team is. Like if you could just put together a team of the guys I mentioned up above you would be more than a 5 seed. When you were a kid did you have pictures of Bruce Bowen on your wall? Did anyone? No. They didn't. They had pictures of all stars and various players that averaged over 20 points per game unless your team made the three seed and was eliminated in the first round of the playoffs in which case maybe you had a picture of an all defensive player on your wall.

Congratulations, you successfully defeated the straw man you made up and proceded to beat it onto the ground

No one's suggesting that AB is an all star.  But (correct me if I'm wrong), do you need to be an all star to be one of the top 6 guys on a contender?  Or to start on a contender?

Bradley would be a starter on the Cavs or OKC (not GSW, Klay Thompson is better).  I'd say that makes him better than the 7th man on a contender, but that's just me

Oh ok. I guess he'd be like the 5th or 6th best guy on those teams. So what's the great thing we can get for him?  Now that he's the 5th best guy on one of those teams.

So, a starter?  Do you see how a starter is a significant upgrade from a 7th man?  If you do, then you can understand why no one can take the original post seriously.  It's so pessimistic it's not even funny

Ok. So what's the great thing we can get for him? Cmon let's hear it. Let's hear about the thing we can get for AB. Or hey we could combine AB and the 3 pick and get...what? What will we get? Okafor? Yeah I don't think so, but go ahead and answer the question.  Tell us all how wonderfully great an asset he is and what we can expect to get.

I say we can't expect much with this group of players. What do you suppose we can get?

[Rondo9]

I concur, other teams may not want what we have to offer.  Ainge needed the 1 or 2 pick for fireworks.   We are on plan B.

Which superstar is available?

[Eja117]

By the way you do realize if AB is so great and a starter....that means....Rozier and Smart aren't worth as much because that means they're not, right?

You do realize we can't try to sell our non starters as starters, right?  We can't tell people we have like 9 starters from a team that didn't get past the first round of the playoffs.

So when we offer AB, the 3 pick, and Smart.....one of those things isn't so valuable. It's either Smart or AB.  They can't both start for the team we trade them to. Just like they don't both start for us.

[BitterJim]

What do you guys actually think a first team all defensive player who isn't an all star is worth? 

That would be Tony Allen.
Andrew Bogut was 2nd team last year
Roy Hibbert and Patrick Beverly two years ago....wait...was Hibbert an all star then? He has made one star game I think.
Anderson Varejo and Thabo Sefalosa in 2009-10
Shane Battier and Bruce Bowen and Marcus Camby back in 07-08

Do you suppose the Celtics phone is just blowing up over Avery Bradley? You think Ainge is just sifting through offers that are tough to decide about because Avery has made an all defensive team?  Because he's not. It's not happening. There isn't a single team out there sorta gathering up assets to make a big run at Bradley. It's not happening. And when Ainge makes a call and says "Ok, so for Okafor I'd offer Bradley and ...." if the very next thing out of his mouth isn't "the third pick and..." the next thing he hears is "click."

Okafor....he is an asset. He is an asset because he has a possibility of going to multiple all star games. Like between 3 and 7. Bradley miiiiigggghhhhhtttt get to one.

I am so so so tired of hearing how wonderfully great the All Defensive team is. Like if you could just put together a team of the guys I mentioned up above you would be more than a 5 seed. When you were a kid did you have pictures of Bruce Bowen on your wall? Did anyone? No. They didn't. They had pictures of all stars and various players that averaged over 20 points per game unless your team made the three seed and was eliminated in the first round of the playoffs in which case maybe you had a picture of an all defensive player on your wall.

Congratulations, you successfully defeated the straw man you made up and proceded to beat it onto the ground

No one's suggesting that AB is an all star.  But (correct me if I'm wrong), do you need to be an all star to be one of the top 6 guys on a contender?  Or to start on a contender?

Bradley would be a starter on the Cavs or OKC (not GSW, Klay Thompson is better).  I'd say that makes him better than the 7th man on a contender, but that's just me

Oh ok. I guess he'd be like the 5th or 6th best guy on those teams. So what's the great thing we can get for him?  Now that he's the 5th best guy on one of those teams.

So, a starter?  Do you see how a starter is a significant upgrade from a 7th man?  If you do, then you can understand why no one can take the original post seriously.  It's so pessimistic it's not even funny

Ok. So what's the great thing we can get for him? Cmon let's hear it. Let's hear about the thing we can get for AB. Or hey we could combine AB and the 3 pick and get...what? What will we get? Okafor? Yeah I don't think so, but go ahead and answer the question.  Tell us all how wonderfully great an asset he is and what we can expect to get.

I say we can't expect much with this group of players. What do you suppose we can get?

What can we get for him? I don't know.  But we can get a lot more for him than we could if he were only capable of being a 7th man on a contender (which is the point I've been making the whole time)

If he gets dealt, it would most likely be as part of a bigger deal (Butler, Love, etc.).  I can't find my crystal ball at the moment, but I'll look for it and then see if I can predict the offseason

[BitterJim]

By the way you do realize if AB is so great and a starter....that means....Rozier and Smart aren't worth as much because that means they're not, right?

You do realize we can't try to sell our non starters as starters, right?  We can't tell people we have like 9 starters from a team that didn't get past the first round of the playoffs.

So when we offer AB, the 3 pick, and Smart.....one of those things isn't so valuable. It's either Smart or AB.  They can't both start for the team we trade them to. Just like they don't both start for us.

Coming off the bench =/= not good enough to be a starter, just as starting doesn't mean you aren't good enough to be a starter

But I guess you're right.  When's the last time a player came off the bench one season and became an all star the next?  I'm stumped!

[LooseCannon]

Sean Grande was just on the celticsbeat podcast and seemed to throw ice on the jimmy butler thing by saying butler isn't as dramatic an upgrade over jae crowder as you think. 

Well, he really isn't.  He's definitely not an upgrade over Crowder when it comes to perimeter shooting.  However, Butler+Crowder is a big upgrade over Crowder+Turner, if we assume that the Celtics can get Butler without giving up Crowder (or Bradley).

[Smokeeye123]

What do you guys actually think a first team all defensive player who isn't an all star is worth? 

That would be Tony Allen.
Andrew Bogut was 2nd team last year
Roy Hibbert and Patrick Beverly two years ago....wait...was Hibbert an all star then? He has made one star game I think.
Anderson Varejo and Thabo Sefalosa in 2009-10
Shane Battier and Bruce Bowen and Marcus Camby back in 07-08

Do you suppose the Celtics phone is just blowing up over Avery Bradley? You think Ainge is just sifting through offers that are tough to decide about because Avery has made an all defensive team?  Because he's not. It's not happening. There isn't a single team out there sorta gathering up assets to make a big run at Bradley. It's not happening. And when Ainge makes a call and says "Ok, so for Okafor I'd offer Bradley and ...." if the very next thing out of his mouth isn't "the third pick and..." the next thing he hears is "click."

Okafor....he is an asset. He is an asset because he has a possibility of going to multiple all star games. Like between 3 and 7. Bradley miiiiigggghhhhhtttt get to one.

I am so so so tired of hearing how wonderfully great the All Defensive team is. Like if you could just put together a team of the guys I mentioned up above you would be more than a 5 seed. When you were a kid did you have pictures of Bruce Bowen on your wall? Did anyone? No. They didn't. They had pictures of all stars and various players that averaged over 20 points per game unless your team made the three seed and was eliminated in the first round of the playoffs in which case maybe you had a picture of an all defensive player on your wall.

Congratulations, you successfully defeated the straw man you made up and proceded to beat it onto the ground

No one's suggesting that AB is an all star.  But (correct me if I'm wrong), do you need to be an all star to be one of the top 6 guys on a contender?  Or to start on a contender?

Bradley would be a starter on the Cavs or OKC (not GSW, Klay Thompson is better).  I'd say that makes him better than the 7th man on a contender, but that's just me

Oh ok. I guess he'd be like the 5th or 6th best guy on those teams. So what's the great thing we can get for him?  Now that he's the 5th best guy on one of those teams.

So, a starter?  Do you see how a starter is a significant upgrade from a 7th man?  If you do, then you can understand why no one can take the original post seriously.  It's so pessimistic it's not even funny

Ok. So what's the great thing we can get for him? Cmon let's hear it. Let's hear about the thing we can get for AB. Or hey we could combine AB and the 3 pick and get...what? What will we get? Okafor? Yeah I don't think so, but go ahead and answer the question.  Tell us all how wonderfully great an asset he is and what we can expect to get.

I say we can't expect much with this group of players. What do you suppose we can get?

philly fans have suggested bradley plus the third pick as a fair offer for okafor....which coming from philly fans show they respect bradley and know hes a good player. The sky isnt falling chicken little.

[Eja117]

What do you guys actually think a first team all defensive player who isn't an all star is worth? 

That would be Tony Allen.
Andrew Bogut was 2nd team last year
Roy Hibbert and Patrick Beverly two years ago....wait...was Hibbert an all star then? He has made one star game I think.
Anderson Varejo and Thabo Sefalosa in 2009-10
Shane Battier and Bruce Bowen and Marcus Camby back in 07-08

Do you suppose the Celtics phone is just blowing up over Avery Bradley? You think Ainge is just sifting through offers that are tough to decide about because Avery has made an all defensive team?  Because he's not. It's not happening. There isn't a single team out there sorta gathering up assets to make a big run at Bradley. It's not happening. And when Ainge makes a call and says "Ok, so for Okafor I'd offer Bradley and ...." if the very next thing out of his mouth isn't "the third pick and..." the next thing he hears is "click."

Okafor....he is an asset. He is an asset because he has a possibility of going to multiple all star games. Like between 3 and 7. Bradley miiiiigggghhhhhtttt get to one.

I am so so so tired of hearing how wonderfully great the All Defensive team is. Like if you could just put together a team of the guys I mentioned up above you would be more than a 5 seed. When you were a kid did you have pictures of Bruce Bowen on your wall? Did anyone? No. They didn't. They had pictures of all stars and various players that averaged over 20 points per game unless your team made the three seed and was eliminated in the first round of the playoffs in which case maybe you had a picture of an all defensive player on your wall.

Congratulations, you successfully defeated the straw man you made up and proceded to beat it onto the ground

No one's suggesting that AB is an all star.  But (correct me if I'm wrong), do you need to be an all star to be one of the top 6 guys on a contender?  Or to start on a contender?

Bradley would be a starter on the Cavs or OKC (not GSW, Klay Thompson is better).  I'd say that makes him better than the 7th man on a contender, but that's just me

Oh ok. I guess he'd be like the 5th or 6th best guy on those teams. So what's the great thing we can get for him?  Now that he's the 5th best guy on one of those teams.

So, a starter?  Do you see how a starter is a significant upgrade from a 7th man?  If you do, then you can understand why no one can take the original post seriously.  It's so pessimistic it's not even funny

Ok. So what's the great thing we can get for him? Cmon let's hear it. Let's hear about the thing we can get for AB. Or hey we could combine AB and the 3 pick and get...what? What will we get? Okafor? Yeah I don't think so, but go ahead and answer the question.  Tell us all how wonderfully great an asset he is and what we can expect to get.

I say we can't expect much with this group of players. What do you suppose we can get?

philly fans have suggested bradley plus the third pick as a fair offer for okafor....which coming from philly fans show they respect bradley and know hes a good player. The sky isnt falling chicken little.

And if we were making trades with fans then we'd be in good shape.

[walker834]

I think Ainge has been doing it right.  HE's been drafting later and has drafted scrappy but flawed players.  It's really what he does with it from here.  We have a high pick. The nets picks the next 3 years. Plus cap room and a scrappy team and good coach.  He's also made decent trades to bring in guys like Isaiah and Crowder.   This team has been built all along but is really going to built with the decisions he makes this offseason and the next couple.  We have a pretty good core team, plus a lot of wiggle room.  That's never a bad thing unless Ainge makes the wrong decisions from here.

Teams have us figured out in ways.  They aren't going to just give us players. That's the one drawback but we have draft picks where Ainge can just draft well if that's the case, plus we have cap room.

Most teams that are successful are built with a good string of draft picks and free agent signings and trades anyways.  He's got to make the right picks, trades and free agent signings but so what.

[Smokeeye123]

You cant imply all fan opinions are invalid and then have an entire thread based around your own overly pessemistic ones and say it's legitimate. No we're not trading with fans i only brought that up to disprove your idea that nobody else values our players at all because they clearly do. We dont have a superstar but we have a lot of good players on great contracts and a surplus of picks. Trading should be no problem depending on what Ainge wants to give up. The only problem is that he probably doesnt want to trade any of the guys of value on our team. (IT, AB, crowder, smart)

[loco_91]

By the way you do realize if AB is so great and a starter....that means....Rozier and Smart aren't worth as much because that means they're not, right?

You do realize we can't try to sell our non starters as starters, right?  We can't tell people we have like 9 starters from a team that didn't get past the first round of the playoffs.

So when we offer AB, the 3 pick, and Smart.....one of those things isn't so valuable. It's either Smart or AB.  They can't both start for the team we trade them to. Just like they don't both start for us.

Good logic. Really great, bravo.