Author Topic: Trade idea C's and Magic shuffle  (Read 2877 times)

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Trade idea C's and Magic shuffle
« on: May 29, 2016, 12:50:12 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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C's trade
Picks-3, 23, 35, 51
Players-AB, Hunter, JJ

C's receive from Magic
Picks-11, 41
Players-Oladipo, Gordon, Mario

  I see Gordon as a better fit with C's and Bender exactly what Magic could use next to Vucevic. C's need an athletic big, Magic need spacing. So C's 1st trade part break down is picks 3 and 23 for Gordon and Mario. Mario and the 23 are added because Bender at 7'1 has the upside edge and Fournier is likely being resigned. Mario is the Magic's trade chip. That deserves a balance of the 23 pick.
 Now with AB, he is a better starter for Magic and C's. C's take a hit there but a shuffle of picks and dealing bench players to magic even it out. Break down is AB, Hunter, JJ, 35 and 51 are moved for Oladipo, 11 and 41. Smart worked well with IT in the playoffs so Iike the pairing going foward. And Oladipo would make an excellent 6man for C's with Turner departing.

C's team starters=IT, Smart, Crowder, Gordon, KO
C's bench=Rozier, Oladipo, Mario, Young, Mickey, AJ
C's picks=11, 16, 31, 41, 45, 58
I'd look to getting a good big at 11 Davis, Lab or Peoltl. Then again at 16 with Zizic, Jones or Zubac. Really stack up because of AJ and KOs inconsistency. Probably move 2 seconds for future seconds (45,58) and try one stash player that way team carries just three rookies.

Magic team starters=Payton, AB, Fournier, Ily/Bender, Vucevic
Magic Picks=23, 35, 47, 51
Magic bench is incomplete but they still have a ton of cap space so maybe they get Hordford who is a Florida guy and he recruits Teague. They would then have some awesome rotations with Payton, Ily and Bender as off the bench the year.

So it's not a big trade. It's not the names we have heard before. It's a shuffling of players and picks. I think it helps C's roster be more balanced and roles are more defined at the start of the year so no roster experimenting for 20 games. I also think the 11th pick is the sweet spot to get a real good player that slides.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2016, 12:57:30 PM by Csfan1984 »

Re: Trade idea C's and Magic shuffle
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2016, 01:02:25 PM »

Offline NHCelticsFan

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Lots of moving pieces in those deals.  I do like the idea of a trade for Gordon based around the third pick.  I agree that he would be a great fit for the C's if he could play the 4.

Re: Trade idea C's and Magic shuffle
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2016, 01:05:44 PM »

Offline A Future of Stevens

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C's trade
Picks-3, 23, 35, 51
Players-AB, Hunter, JJ

C's receive from Magic
Picks-11, 41
Players-Oladipo, Gordon, Mario

  I see Gordon as a better fit with C's and Bender exactly what Magic could use next to Vucevic. C's need an athletic big, Magic need spacing. So C's 1st trade part break down is picks 3 and 23 for Gordon and Mario. Mario and the 23 are added because Bender at 7'1 has the upside edge and Fournier is likely being resigned. Mario is the Magic's trade chip. That deserves a balance of the 23 pick.
 Now with AB, he is a better starter for Magic and C's. C's take a hit there but a shuffle of picks and dealing bench players to magic even it out. Break down is AB, Hunter, JJ, 35 and 51 are moved for Oladipo, 11 and 41. Smart worked well with IT in the playoffs so Iike the pairing going foward. And Oladipo would make an excellent 6man for C's with Turner departing.

C's team starters=IT, Smart, Crowder, Gordon, KO
C's bench=Rozier, Oladipo, Mario, Young, Mickey, AJ
C's picks=11, 16, 31, 41, 45, 58
I'd look to getting a good big at 11 Davis, Lab or Peoltl. Then again at 16 with Zizic, Jones or Zubac. Really stack up because of AJ and KOs inconsistency. Probably move 2 seconds for future seconds (45,58) and try one stash player that way team carries just three rookies.

Magic team starters=Payton, AB, Fournier, Ily/Bender, Vucevic
Magic Picks=23, 35, 47, 51
Magic bench is incomplete but they still have a ton of cap space so maybe they get Hordford who is a Florida guy and he recruits Teague. They would then have some awesome rotations with Payton, Ily and Bender as off the bench the year.

So it's not a big trade. It's not the names we have heard before. It's a shuffling of players and picks. I think it helps C's roster be more balanced and roles are more defined at the start of the year so no roster experimenting for 20 games. I also think the 11th pick is the sweet spot to get a real good player that slides.

TP for a new original trade idea.
I think the celtics would jump at the opportunity to accomplish this, yet the magic would decline.

Gordon and oladipo are huge pieces, and they also throw in mario? Pretty sure the magic want to build around gordon.
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Re: Trade idea C's and Magic shuffle
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2016, 01:35:54 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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C's trade
Picks-3, 23, 35, 51
Players-AB, Hunter, JJ

C's receive from Magic
Picks-11, 41
Players-Oladipo, Gordon, Mario

TP for a new original trade idea.
I think the celtics would jump at the opportunity to accomplish this, yet the magic would decline.

Gordon and oladipo are huge pieces, and they also throw in mario? Pretty sure the magic want to build around gordon.
Thanks.
Thing with the Magic team is it doesn't fit too well. AB and Bender are better fits than Oladipo and Gordon who are the main causes of the bad fit on the team. Its not their fault its Vucevic is the man in the post and Payton + Fournier need the ball more. Considering C's team would be giving up best player and prospect plus shuffle picks the 11th pick and Mario are not too much to ask for.

Re: Trade idea C's and Magic shuffle
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2016, 04:16:47 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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C's need an athletic big, Magic need spacing.

You don't think the Celtics need more perimeter shooting talent to provide spacing?
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Re: Trade idea C's and Magic shuffle
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2016, 04:31:49 PM »

Offline Big333223

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Lots of moving pieces in this deal but I'm not sure the C's actually get any better, unless Gordon and Hezonja really pan out big time but even then, you're betting that they wind up better than whatever the #3 pick will be.

I think they can do a lot better with the picks and prospects offered in this deal.
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Re: Trade idea C's and Magic shuffle
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2016, 08:22:51 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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C's need an athletic big, Magic need spacing.

You don't think the Celtics need more perimeter shooting talent to provide spacing?
They do but not from their bigs. KO, AJ, Zeller and Sully were all able to score from mid range. They didn't have a guy mobile enough to be a pick and roll threat consistently nor could they get Sully or other bigs to work well enough in the paint to open up easy spot ups. BS had to work a lot of plays for looks that should come easier. This is why Gordon makes sense as a pick and roll player and elbow faceups from the 4 spot. Then I also have faith Mario and James Young will come around but in two more years. I know 2 years is a while but that is what happens with young players they need time.

Re: Trade idea C's and Magic shuffle
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2016, 08:27:55 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Lots of moving pieces in this deal but I'm not sure the C's actually get any better, unless Gordon and Hezonja really pan out big time but even then, you're betting that they wind up better than whatever the #3 pick will be.

I think they can do a lot better with the picks and prospects offered in this deal.
You are 100% right that they have to pan out or its a bad move. I like the players and feel it is worth it if the 11 pick is added. I obviously wouldn't consider this deal without the pick. I also think you look for more established talent but those deals don't look likely right now.

Re: Trade idea C's and Magic shuffle
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2016, 09:00:01 PM »

Offline LilRip

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I'm an Oladipo fan so I'd love to have him in green, but I don't know if this really improves us (vs. keeping the #3 pick and rolling with a guy like Bender).

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Re: Trade idea C's and Magic shuffle
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2016, 09:22:40 PM »

Offline anewframe

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TP for the original idea. This is a really interesting trade, I'm not sure Orlando goes for it though. I don't think I do it either personally.

Re: Trade idea C's and Magic shuffle
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2016, 09:37:11 PM »

Offline Granath

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TP for something new and fairly well thought out. But it's not a good deal for the Celtics. Let's break it down:

AB and Oladipo play the same position. Victor is only a year younger. He's better on the offensive end (17/5/4 PER36) but Bradley isn't far behind (16/3/2) and Avery is clearly a far better defensive player having just made the 1st team all-NBA defensive team. I can see where some may prefer Oladipo but it is basically a wash. Bradley's defense is easily worth 1/2/1 PER36 on the offensive end.

Gordon / Mario for Hunter / JJ. Obviously Gordon and Mario are worth more based on potential. But neither is a world beater at this point.

3, 23, 35, 51 for 11, 41 - Here's where it kind of falls apart. The Cs lose 8 spots in the draft - that's worth about 2 mid-round 1sts in and of itself  - and that's being exceptionally conservative. Really the going price to move from 11 to 3 would require another semi high-lottery 1st (like about the #6 pick). Then the Cs also give up 23, 35 and 51 for 41 - that's worth no less than another mid round first.

So for this deal to work you'd either have to be really high on Oladipo over Bradley (which statistically doesn't seem to be borne out) or you'd have to value Gordon/Mario for Hunter/JJ to be worth no less than 3 mid 1sts and I don't see how that can be justified in any way, shape or form. Now I'm actually a Gordon fan but I can't see giving away 3 mid round 1sts for him.

You only move the #3 pick for a bonafide superstar or young stud. This deal doesn't do that. It seems like a shuffling of the deck chairs while the Cs give up - by a large margin - the most valuable asset for PERHAPS slight incremental gains in other areas. 
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Re: Trade idea C's and Magic shuffle
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2016, 10:04:37 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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C's need an athletic big, Magic need spacing.

You don't think the Celtics need more perimeter shooting talent to provide spacing?
They do but not from their bigs. KO, AJ, Zeller and Sully were all able to score from mid range. They didn't have a guy mobile enough to be a pick and roll threat consistently nor could they get Sully or other bigs to work well enough in the paint to open up easy spot ups. BS had to work a lot of plays for looks that should come easier. This is why Gordon makes sense as a pick and roll player and elbow faceups from the 4 spot. Then I also have faith Mario and James Young will come around but in two more years. I know 2 years is a while but that is what happens with young players they need time.

The Celtics need to have three legitimate three-point threats in the starting lineup.  Jae Crowder is not a legitimate three-point threat.  Replacing Bradley with Oladipo is actually diminishing the Celtics' floor-spacing abilities.

Maybe if you left Oladipo and Bradley out of the deal and could make a case that Hezonja could become a solid defender who could start at SF and push Crowder to an Iguadala-like bench contribution, I could consider some sort of deal built around #3, other picks for Hezonja, Gordon, #11.  If both teams would take Bender with #3, I might make a deal contingent on whether or not a specific player is still available at #11.
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Re: Trade idea C's and Magic shuffle
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2016, 12:08:16 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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So for this deal to work you'd either have to be really high on Oladipo over Bradley (which statistically doesn't seem to be borne out) or you'd have to value Gordon/Mario for Hunter/JJ to be worth no less than 3 mid 1sts and I don't see how that can be justified in any way, shape or form. Now I'm actually a Gordon fan but I can't see giving away 3 mid round 1sts for him.

You only move the #3 pick for a bonafide superstar or young stud. This deal doesn't do that. It seems like a shuffling of the deck chairs while the Cs give up - by a large margin - the most valuable asset for PERHAPS slight incremental gains in other areas.
Thanks for the tp
These are all good points. So will answer the best questions. I do think Gordon and Mario are worth a lot more than JJ and Hunter. 3 mid first worth, yes.
I would like to get a star but compared what the 3, AB and the other pieces would get team vs what Gordon, Mario and 11 could become I'd take the magic deal even if it does look only like shuffling the deck. It is also the reason I called the thread a shuffle. I feel it's all about creating better team fits for both clubs.

This deal isn't without risk but I would say the risk is the same as simply selecting any player at 3. It all hinges on how the players pan out.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2016, 12:35:22 PM by Csfan1984 »

Re: Trade idea C's and Magic shuffle
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2016, 12:30:05 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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C's trade
Picks-3, 23, 35, 51
Players-AB, Hunter, JJ

C's receive from Magic
Picks-11, 41
Players-Oladipo, Gordon, Mario

  I see Gordon as a better fit with C's and Bender exactly what Magic could use next to Vucevic. C's need an athletic big, Magic need spacing. So C's 1st trade part break down is picks 3 and 23 for Gordon and Mario. Mario and the 23 are added because Bender at 7'1 has the upside edge and Fournier is likely being resigned. Mario is the Magic's trade chip. That deserves a balance of the 23 pick.
 Now with AB, he is a better starter for Magic and C's. C's take a hit there but a shuffle of picks and dealing bench players to magic even it out. Break down is AB, Hunter, JJ, 35 and 51 are moved for Oladipo, 11 and 41. Smart worked well with IT in the playoffs so Iike the pairing going foward. And Oladipo would make an excellent 6man for C's with Turner departing.

C's team starters=IT, Smart, Crowder, Gordon, KO
C's bench=Rozier, Oladipo, Mario, Young, Mickey, AJ
C's picks=11, 16, 31, 41, 45, 58
I'd look to getting a good big at 11 Davis, Lab or Peoltl. Then again at 16 with Zizic, Jones or Zubac. Really stack up because of AJ and KOs inconsistency. Probably move 2 seconds for future seconds (45,58) and try one stash player that way team carries just three rookies.

Magic team starters=Payton, AB, Fournier, Ily/Bender, Vucevic
Magic Picks=23, 35, 47, 51
Magic bench is incomplete but they still have a ton of cap space so maybe they get Hordford who is a Florida guy and he recruits Teague. They would then have some awesome rotations with Payton, Ily and Bender as off the bench the year.

So it's not a big trade. It's not the names we have heard before. It's a shuffling of players and picks. I think it helps C's roster be more balanced and roles are more defined at the start of the year so no roster experimenting for 20 games. I also think the 11th pick is the sweet spot to get a real good player that slides.

TP for a new original trade idea.
I think the celtics would jump at the opportunity to accomplish this, yet the magic would decline.

Gordon and oladipo are huge pieces, and they also throw in mario? Pretty sure the magic want to build around gordon.
I completely disagree, I think ORL looks at this deal very seriously.

You don't build a team around Gordon.  3-point dunk winner, super-athlete, but that's about it.  Oladipo is nice piece but not a franchise cornerstone.

In fact, after the way the Magic disintegrated last year (after a fast start), strongly suggests they have to abandon their current direction.  They don't have any super-elite players or even one that might become one someday.  Now they have a new coach too.

Re: Trade idea C's and Magic shuffle
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2016, 12:30:37 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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C's need an athletic big, Magic need spacing.

You don't think the Celtics need more perimeter shooting talent to provide spacing?
They do but not from their bigs. KO, AJ, Zeller and Sully were all able to score from mid range. They didn't have a guy mobile enough to be a pick and roll threat consistently nor could they get Sully or other bigs to work well enough in the paint to open up easy spot ups. BS had to work a lot of plays for looks that should come easier. This is why Gordon makes sense as a pick and roll player and elbow faceups from the 4 spot. Then I also have faith Mario and James Young will come around but in two more years. I know 2 years is a while but that is what happens with young players they need time.

The Celtics need to have three legitimate three-point threats in the starting lineup.  Jae Crowder is not a legitimate three-point threat.  Replacing Bradley with Oladipo is actually diminishing the Celtics' floor-spacing abilities.

Maybe if you left Oladipo and Bradley out of the deal and could make a case that Hezonja could become a solid defender who could start at SF and push Crowder to an Iguadala-like bench contribution, I could consider some sort of deal built around #3, other picks for Hezonja, Gordon, #11.  If both teams would take Bender with #3, I might make a deal contingent on whether or not a specific player is still available at #11.
Oladipo is to be a six man he is not meant to address the starters 3pt shooting but fill the void of Turner. Yes you lose Bradley from the line up a .360 3 shooter. But you add the potential of Mario's development, the 11 pick, and Gordon vs just the 3 and the lower picks. You also have to have some faith Crowder and Smart improve their shots to .350-.360 which they could do considering Crowder was .336 this year (he really struggled after injury) and Smart was .335 his first (non-hand injured) year. Hitting at those marks is respectable enough. Then with AJ and KO they have good range for bigs but there is no big taking advantage of this. No big that can lock down on defense or be a mismatch offensively driving/slashing to the rim. That is why Gordon is appealing to me. With AJ and KO Bender isn't as big of a desire as a Gordon type PF.