Author Topic: Pelicans guard Bryce Dejean Jones Shot and Killed  (Read 12118 times)

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Re: Pelicans guard Bryce Dejean Jones Shot and Killed
« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2016, 08:47:00 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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A combat situation? A bit extreme. As I said above maybe fear breads fear here. I just can't comprehend a society where killing a man with such ease is accepted as alright

I am a combat veteran.   Anytime another person, is trying to harm you it is potentially a combat situation.   You claim, I am full of fear, I volunteered for a war.   Your beyond naive, do you think he was kicking in the door to bring her flowers?   I hope you never get close a crisis situation because, your likely toast.  Let me put in terms you might understand.  There are sheep and their are wolves,  your a sheep, I am a dog who protects sheep like you from wolves.

Quote
can't comprehend

That is pretty obvious.  People do not kick in doors at 3 am to be your friend.   Try talking, and face it guys who kick down doors are not in a talking mood, and you might end up dead.

You forgot the last part of that sentence. In America

Name the countries of the world where people go around breaking down other people's doors at 3 am in the morning without getting someone getting seriously hurt.

Any country in Northern Europe. Sure in some cases there will be escalation but the likely scenario is some hot headedness, police involvement and an ASBO or something. The key element is a gun won't be involved and that seriously reduces the chances of a fatality in this scenario

Look, I understand that one guy from England isn't going to convince anyone to change their philosophy of a lifetime. I just think that in other westernised countries we have proven that guns aren't necessary for safety to exist. And in a lot of ways have produced a less threatening environment. I don't imagine it being pleasant knowing that if in general someone else misinterpreted my actions then I could end up with a bullet in my head

England? This happened in your country five days ago:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mum-four-murdered-after-throat-8037853

No guns involved.  Same here from last month:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3519121/Police-launch-murder-investigation-ex-miner-80-died-five-months-robbers-beat-ransacked-home.html

The only difference is that in these cases the homeowners were killed, instead of the home invaders.

Ehm, I'm not sure this is still on topic, but in any case, the case that gun ownership reduces/prevents deaths has still to be proved.

I wouldn't exactly say that. It's just that at least in cases like these it makes it so that the wrong deaths happen less and the right deaths happen more.   

What is the theory that BDJ was going to do? Have a nice conversation over tea or something?

It seems clear that Bryce Dejean Jones was engaging in behavior that was stupid, dangerous, and criminal, but calling his death "the right death," that's out of line.

DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Pelicans guard Bryce Dejean Jones Shot and Killed
« Reply #46 on: May 29, 2016, 08:53:46 PM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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Wouldn't have happened if they didn't live in a gun culture.. I'm never gonna be able to understand that.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I find it odd that you go by, "The Sundance Kid"! He was a ruthless outlaw who robbed trains and banks at gun point.  ???

Ha fair enough. I loved the film and that's about the time I started needing an alias for forums and stuff.

Look, I don't want to create divisions here. If people think a certain way then you are entitled to that. In a way I just want to understand why people feel that way because it's so strongly ingrained in me that we should protect human life as far as possible.

We can all agree it's sad that the man is dead. That's what is important here. Regardless of how it happened we are sad that he is gone.

Re: Pelicans guard Bryce Dejean Jones Shot and Killed
« Reply #47 on: May 29, 2016, 09:20:20 PM »

Offline chambers

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Here are some facts:
In the USA, you are 10 times more likely to be killed by a gun, than in other developed countries

Of countries with substantial income by GDP, the USA's murder by gun rate is 25 times higher than any other country considered to have a high income.


Even though the USA's suicide rate is similar to other developed countries, the rate of suicides by firearm is 8 times higher than any other developed country.

CBS did a great study on this earlier this year, and it's worth a read.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-u-s-gun-deaths-compare-to-other-countries/

"(In the USA...) offenders take into account the threat posed by their adversaries. Individuals are more likely to have lethal intent if they anticipate that their adversaries will be armed," she explained.

Even though it has half the population of the other 22 nations combined, the United States accounted for 82 percent of all gun deaths. The United States also accounted for 90 percent of all women killed by guns, the study found. Ninety-one percent of children under 14 who died by gun violence were in the United States. And 92 percent of young people between ages 15 and 24 killed by guns were in the United States, the study found"

*Murder is the second leading cause of death among Americans aged 15 to 24, the study found. *Murder was the third leading cause of death among those aged 25-34.
*Compared to those in the same age groups in other wealthy countries, Americans aged 15-24 are 49 times more likely to be the victim of a gun-related murder. For those aged 25-34, that number is 32 times more likely."



The death by firearm rates in the USA are completely and utterly disgraceful. For a country with the kind of GDP, social liberty and supposed protection of the people by their government- an awful lot of people die unnecessarily, particularly by firearms.

If you don't think there's a problem with gun control in the USA, that's fine. But you must then admit that something else is seriously broken with the social system in America if socio economic factors are influencing these deaths more than the literal flood of firearms swimming around the USA.
For a country that often declares itself 'the greatest nation on earth', it does a terrible job of nurturing, providing for, and protecting all citizens as equals.

I love the USA. My wife is American. I'm thankful for everything the USA has done to protect the world from the bad guys. But Americans are suffering and are being failed by their governments when this many people die by firearm. Something is broken and unfortunately because of the constitution, it will probably never be fixed.

Another good read about how unique this problem is and why it will never go away....
http://www.vox.com/2015/10/3/9444417/gun-violence-united-states-america
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Pelicans guard Bryce Dejean Jones Shot and Killed
« Reply #48 on: May 29, 2016, 09:25:30 PM »

Offline Eja117

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Quote
A combat situation? A bit extreme. As I said above maybe fear breads fear here. I just can't comprehend a society where killing a man with such ease is accepted as alright

I am a combat veteran.   Anytime another person, is trying to harm you it is potentially a combat situation.   You claim, I am full of fear, I volunteered for a war.   Your beyond naive, do you think he was kicking in the door to bring her flowers?   I hope you never get close a crisis situation because, your likely toast.  Let me put in terms you might understand.  There are sheep and their are wolves,  your a sheep, I am a dog who protects sheep like you from wolves.

Quote
can't comprehend

That is pretty obvious.  People do not kick in doors at 3 am to be your friend.   Try talking, and face it guys who kick down doors are not in a talking mood, and you might end up dead.

You forgot the last part of that sentence. In America

Name the countries of the world where people go around breaking down other people's doors at 3 am in the morning without getting someone getting seriously hurt.

Any country in Northern Europe. Sure in some cases there will be escalation but the likely scenario is some hot headedness, police involvement and an ASBO or something. The key element is a gun won't be involved and that seriously reduces the chances of a fatality in this scenario

Look, I understand that one guy from England isn't going to convince anyone to change their philosophy of a lifetime. I just think that in other westernised countries we have proven that guns aren't necessary for safety to exist. And in a lot of ways have produced a less threatening environment. I don't imagine it being pleasant knowing that if in general someone else misinterpreted my actions then I could end up with a bullet in my head

England? This happened in your country five days ago:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mum-four-murdered-after-throat-8037853

No guns involved.  Same here from last month:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3519121/Police-launch-murder-investigation-ex-miner-80-died-five-months-robbers-beat-ransacked-home.html

The only difference is that in these cases the homeowners were killed, instead of the home invaders.

Ehm, I'm not sure this is still on topic, but in any case, the case that gun ownership reduces/prevents deaths has still to be proved.

I wouldn't exactly say that. It's just that at least in cases like these it makes it so that the wrong deaths happen less and the right deaths happen more.   

What is the theory that BDJ was going to do? Have a nice conversation over tea or something?

It seems clear that Bryce Dejean Jones was engaging in behavior that was stupid, dangerous, and criminal, but calling his death "the right death," that's out of line.
No. Busting down someone's door at 3am is out of line. Doing so and expecting not to be immediately shot at is out of line.  This isn't Europe or Japan where people are compliant and where the cops yell "Stop or I'll yell stop again!" and start blowing whistles. This is the USA where there are immediate consequences for busting into someone's house in the middle of the night.


Re: Pelicans guard Bryce Dejean Jones Shot and Killed
« Reply #49 on: May 29, 2016, 09:36:04 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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Quote
A combat situation? A bit extreme. As I said above maybe fear breads fear here. I just can't comprehend a society where killing a man with such ease is accepted as alright

I am a combat veteran.   Anytime another person, is trying to harm you it is potentially a combat situation.   You claim, I am full of fear, I volunteered for a war.   Your beyond naive, do you think he was kicking in the door to bring her flowers?   I hope you never get close a crisis situation because, your likely toast.  Let me put in terms you might understand.  There are sheep and their are wolves,  your a sheep, I am a dog who protects sheep like you from wolves.

Quote
can't comprehend

That is pretty obvious.  People do not kick in doors at 3 am to be your friend.   Try talking, and face it guys who kick down doors are not in a talking mood, and you might end up dead.

You forgot the last part of that sentence. In America

Name the countries of the world where people go around breaking down other people's doors at 3 am in the morning without getting someone getting seriously hurt.

Any country in Northern Europe. Sure in some cases there will be escalation but the likely scenario is some hot headedness, police involvement and an ASBO or something. The key element is a gun won't be involved and that seriously reduces the chances of a fatality in this scenario

Look, I understand that one guy from England isn't going to convince anyone to change their philosophy of a lifetime. I just think that in other westernised countries we have proven that guns aren't necessary for safety to exist. And in a lot of ways have produced a less threatening environment. I don't imagine it being pleasant knowing that if in general someone else misinterpreted my actions then I could end up with a bullet in my head

England? This happened in your country five days ago:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mum-four-murdered-after-throat-8037853

No guns involved.  Same here from last month:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3519121/Police-launch-murder-investigation-ex-miner-80-died-five-months-robbers-beat-ransacked-home.html

The only difference is that in these cases the homeowners were killed, instead of the home invaders.

Ehm, I'm not sure this is still on topic, but in any case, the case that gun ownership reduces/prevents deaths has still to be proved.

I wouldn't exactly say that. It's just that at least in cases like these it makes it so that the wrong deaths happen less and the right deaths happen more.   

What is the theory that BDJ was going to do? Have a nice conversation over tea or something?

It seems clear that Bryce Dejean Jones was engaging in behavior that was stupid, dangerous, and criminal, but calling his death "the right death," that's out of line.
No. Busting down someone's door at 3am is out of line. Doing so and expecting not to be immediately shot at is out of line.  This isn't Europe or Japan where people are compliant and where the cops yell "Stop or I'll yell stop again!" and start blowing whistles. This is the USA where there are immediate consequences for busting into someone's house in the middle of the night.

Well, I find it tragic that young men get killed for doing stupid stuff.  This particular young man was in a situation where he was on the verge of having his dreams come true.  One awful mistake took it all away from him and his family.

For me, the story's just sad. 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Pelicans guard Bryce Dejean Jones Shot and Killed
« Reply #50 on: May 29, 2016, 09:36:10 PM »

Offline Eja117

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Here are some facts:
In the USA, you are 10 times more likely to be killed by a gun, than in other developed countries

Of countries with substantial income by GDP, the USA's murder by gun rate is 25 times higher than any other country considered to have a high income.


Even though the USA's suicide rate is similar to other developed countries, the rate of suicides by firearm is 8 times higher than any other developed country.

CBS did a great study on this earlier this year, and it's worth a read.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-u-s-gun-deaths-compare-to-other-countries/

"(In the USA...) offenders take into account the threat posed by their adversaries. Individuals are more likely to have lethal intent if they anticipate that their adversaries will be armed," she explained.

Even though it has half the population of the other 22 nations combined, the United States accounted for 82 percent of all gun deaths. The United States also accounted for 90 percent of all women killed by guns, the study found. Ninety-one percent of children under 14 who died by gun violence were in the United States. And 92 percent of young people between ages 15 and 24 killed by guns were in the United States, the study found"

*Murder is the second leading cause of death among Americans aged 15 to 24, the study found. *Murder was the third leading cause of death among those aged 25-34.
*Compared to those in the same age groups in other wealthy countries, Americans aged 15-24 are 49 times more likely to be the victim of a gun-related murder. For those aged 25-34, that number is 32 times more likely."



The death by firearm rates in the USA are completely and utterly disgraceful. For a country with the kind of GDP, social liberty and supposed protection of the people by their government- an awful lot of people die unnecessarily, particularly by firearms.

If you don't think there's a problem with gun control in the USA, that's fine. But you must then admit that something else is seriously broken with the social system in America if socio economic factors are influencing these deaths more than the literal flood of firearms swimming around the USA.
For a country that often declares itself 'the greatest nation on earth', it does a terrible job of nurturing, providing for, and protecting all citizens as equals.

I love the USA. My wife is American. I'm thankful for everything the USA has done to protect the world from the bad guys. But Americans are suffering and are being failed by their governments when this many people die by firearm. Something is broken and unfortunately because of the constitution, it will probably never be fixed.

Another good read about how unique this problem is and why it will never go away....
http://www.vox.com/2015/10/3/9444417/gun-violence-united-states-america
No. We need context.  In Europe in the past 50 years we had half of the continent with absolutely zero freedom whatsoever.  There was a Balkans genocide. Then in the past years Russia has marched into two different countries.

We have also had multiple terrorist attacks in Europe lately, despite being a gun free area generally.

When half of the continent of Europe was under lock and key that was because this was the immediate aftermath of a world war that featured a major genocide....which was committed using guns.

In response to the developing war Churchill made it clear that the strategy when they bust into your house is to "take one with you." He meant with guns. 

Once this war was over Stalin initiated another genocide of his own people because...well they were poor essentially.  He used guns for that.

All this comes not too long after....the first world war and ....the Armenian genocide. 

And in the mean time just for kicks mafia violence in Italy is so severe that the Pope just excommunicated the Mafia.

The history of gun violence in Europe is far more extensive than in North America....except in Switzerland where absolutely everyone has a gun. 

Now we have Putin telling Poland and Romania not to place missile defense shields...or else.

Bottom line...at any time in the last 75 to 100ish years in Europe you were far more likely to be killed by a gun ...or you were more likely to be marched to a gas chamber or a train taking you to Siberia...by guys with guns, than in North America.

If you want to cherry pick and use only "western Europe" or "the developed nations" ok fine you can compare really only the better half of Europe if you want to, but then I get to use the best half of America instead of the poorest.


Re: Pelicans guard Bryce Dejean Jones Shot and Killed
« Reply #51 on: May 29, 2016, 09:37:43 PM »

Offline Eja117

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Quote
A combat situation? A bit extreme. As I said above maybe fear breads fear here. I just can't comprehend a society where killing a man with such ease is accepted as alright

I am a combat veteran.   Anytime another person, is trying to harm you it is potentially a combat situation.   You claim, I am full of fear, I volunteered for a war.   Your beyond naive, do you think he was kicking in the door to bring her flowers?   I hope you never get close a crisis situation because, your likely toast.  Let me put in terms you might understand.  There are sheep and their are wolves,  your a sheep, I am a dog who protects sheep like you from wolves.

Quote
can't comprehend

That is pretty obvious.  People do not kick in doors at 3 am to be your friend.   Try talking, and face it guys who kick down doors are not in a talking mood, and you might end up dead.

You forgot the last part of that sentence. In America

Name the countries of the world where people go around breaking down other people's doors at 3 am in the morning without getting someone getting seriously hurt.

Any country in Northern Europe. Sure in some cases there will be escalation but the likely scenario is some hot headedness, police involvement and an ASBO or something. The key element is a gun won't be involved and that seriously reduces the chances of a fatality in this scenario

Look, I understand that one guy from England isn't going to convince anyone to change their philosophy of a lifetime. I just think that in other westernised countries we have proven that guns aren't necessary for safety to exist. And in a lot of ways have produced a less threatening environment. I don't imagine it being pleasant knowing that if in general someone else misinterpreted my actions then I could end up with a bullet in my head

England? This happened in your country five days ago:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mum-four-murdered-after-throat-8037853

No guns involved.  Same here from last month:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3519121/Police-launch-murder-investigation-ex-miner-80-died-five-months-robbers-beat-ransacked-home.html

The only difference is that in these cases the homeowners were killed, instead of the home invaders.

Ehm, I'm not sure this is still on topic, but in any case, the case that gun ownership reduces/prevents deaths has still to be proved.

I wouldn't exactly say that. It's just that at least in cases like these it makes it so that the wrong deaths happen less and the right deaths happen more.   

What is the theory that BDJ was going to do? Have a nice conversation over tea or something?

It seems clear that Bryce Dejean Jones was engaging in behavior that was stupid, dangerous, and criminal, but calling his death "the right death," that's out of line.
No. Busting down someone's door at 3am is out of line. Doing so and expecting not to be immediately shot at is out of line.  This isn't Europe or Japan where people are compliant and where the cops yell "Stop or I'll yell stop again!" and start blowing whistles. This is the USA where there are immediate consequences for busting into someone's house in the middle of the night.

Well, I find it tragic that young men get killed for doing stupid stuff.  This particular young man was in a situation where he was on the verge of having his dreams come true.  One awful mistake took it all away from him and his family.

For me, the story's just sad.
I didn't say it wasn't sad or tragic. It's definitely that.  But an innocent man is still alive and that has to matter. I'll take it as a silver lining on some level, because that's all the good that comes out of this and I believe in trying to take the good with the bad when you can.

Re: Pelicans guard Bryce Dejean Jones Shot and Killed
« Reply #52 on: May 29, 2016, 09:44:10 PM »

Offline chambers

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  • Posts: 7482
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  • Boston Celtics= Championships, nothing less.
Here are some facts:
In the USA, you are 10 times more likely to be killed by a gun, than in other developed countries

Of countries with substantial income by GDP, the USA's murder by gun rate is 25 times higher than any other country considered to have a high income.


Even though the USA's suicide rate is similar to other developed countries, the rate of suicides by firearm is 8 times higher than any other developed country.

CBS did a great study on this earlier this year, and it's worth a read.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-u-s-gun-deaths-compare-to-other-countries/

"(In the USA...) offenders take into account the threat posed by their adversaries. Individuals are more likely to have lethal intent if they anticipate that their adversaries will be armed," she explained.

Even though it has half the population of the other 22 nations combined, the United States accounted for 82 percent of all gun deaths. The United States also accounted for 90 percent of all women killed by guns, the study found. Ninety-one percent of children under 14 who died by gun violence were in the United States. And 92 percent of young people between ages 15 and 24 killed by guns were in the United States, the study found"

*Murder is the second leading cause of death among Americans aged 15 to 24, the study found. *Murder was the third leading cause of death among those aged 25-34.
*Compared to those in the same age groups in other wealthy countries, Americans aged 15-24 are 49 times more likely to be the victim of a gun-related murder. For those aged 25-34, that number is 32 times more likely."



The death by firearm rates in the USA are completely and utterly disgraceful. For a country with the kind of GDP, social liberty and supposed protection of the people by their government- an awful lot of people die unnecessarily, particularly by firearms.

If you don't think there's a problem with gun control in the USA, that's fine. But you must then admit that something else is seriously broken with the social system in America if socio economic factors are influencing these deaths more than the literal flood of firearms swimming around the USA.
For a country that often declares itself 'the greatest nation on earth', it does a terrible job of nurturing, providing for, and protecting all citizens as equals.

I love the USA. My wife is American. I'm thankful for everything the USA has done to protect the world from the bad guys. But Americans are suffering and are being failed by their governments when this many people die by firearm. Something is broken and unfortunately because of the constitution, it will probably never be fixed.

Another good read about how unique this problem is and why it will never go away....
http://www.vox.com/2015/10/3/9444417/gun-violence-united-states-america
No. We need context.  In Europe in the past 50 years we had half of the continent with absolutely zero freedom whatsoever.  There was a Balkans genocide. Then in the past years Russia has marched into two different countries.

We have also had multiple terrorist attacks in Europe lately, despite being a gun free area generally.

When half of the continent of Europe was under lock and key that was because this was the immediate aftermath of a world war that featured a major genocide....which was committed using guns.

In response to the developing war Churchill made it clear that the strategy when they bust into your house is to "take one with you." He meant with guns. 

Once this war was over Stalin initiated another genocide of his own people because...well they were poor essentially.  He used guns for that.

All this comes not too long after....the first world war and ....the Armenian genocide. 

And in the mean time just for kicks mafia violence in Italy is so severe that the Pope just excommunicated the Mafia.

The history of gun violence in Europe is far more extensive than in North America....except in Switzerland where absolutely everyone has a gun. 

Now we have Putin telling Poland and Romania not to place missile defense shields...or else.

Bottom line...at any time in the last 75 to 100ish years in Europe you were far more likely to be killed by a gun ...or you were more likely to be marched to a gas chamber or a train taking you to Siberia...by guys with guns, than in North America.

If you want to cherry pick and use only "western Europe" or "the developed nations" ok fine you can compare really only the better half of Europe if you want to, but then I get to use the best half of America instead of the poorest.


Would you consider the USA developed nation?
I'm not talking about war torn pockets of Europe, or the Italian Mafia. You're referencing wars and European history.

We are talking about developed countries. There are currently no wars in Sweden, the UK, Ireland, Australia, Canada. There are also no wars in the USA- yet there are thousands of people dying by fire arm and you are way more likely to die in the good ol' USA than any of these other countries. Why? Because of guns.

Why do so many Americans die by firearms? The country is broken and the constitution ensures that it won't be fixed. Just sad.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Pelicans guard Bryce Dejean Jones Shot and Killed
« Reply #53 on: May 29, 2016, 09:53:54 PM »

Offline Eja117

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Here are some facts:
In the USA, you are 10 times more likely to be killed by a gun, than in other developed countries

Of countries with substantial income by GDP, the USA's murder by gun rate is 25 times higher than any other country considered to have a high income.


Even though the USA's suicide rate is similar to other developed countries, the rate of suicides by firearm is 8 times higher than any other developed country.

CBS did a great study on this earlier this year, and it's worth a read.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-u-s-gun-deaths-compare-to-other-countries/

"(In the USA...) offenders take into account the threat posed by their adversaries. Individuals are more likely to have lethal intent if they anticipate that their adversaries will be armed," she explained.

Even though it has half the population of the other 22 nations combined, the United States accounted for 82 percent of all gun deaths. The United States also accounted for 90 percent of all women killed by guns, the study found. Ninety-one percent of children under 14 who died by gun violence were in the United States. And 92 percent of young people between ages 15 and 24 killed by guns were in the United States, the study found"

*Murder is the second leading cause of death among Americans aged 15 to 24, the study found. *Murder was the third leading cause of death among those aged 25-34.
*Compared to those in the same age groups in other wealthy countries, Americans aged 15-24 are 49 times more likely to be the victim of a gun-related murder. For those aged 25-34, that number is 32 times more likely."



The death by firearm rates in the USA are completely and utterly disgraceful. For a country with the kind of GDP, social liberty and supposed protection of the people by their government- an awful lot of people die unnecessarily, particularly by firearms.

If you don't think there's a problem with gun control in the USA, that's fine. But you must then admit that something else is seriously broken with the social system in America if socio economic factors are influencing these deaths more than the literal flood of firearms swimming around the USA.
For a country that often declares itself 'the greatest nation on earth', it does a terrible job of nurturing, providing for, and protecting all citizens as equals.

I love the USA. My wife is American. I'm thankful for everything the USA has done to protect the world from the bad guys. But Americans are suffering and are being failed by their governments when this many people die by firearm. Something is broken and unfortunately because of the constitution, it will probably never be fixed.

Another good read about how unique this problem is and why it will never go away....
http://www.vox.com/2015/10/3/9444417/gun-violence-united-states-america
No. We need context.  In Europe in the past 50 years we had half of the continent with absolutely zero freedom whatsoever.  There was a Balkans genocide. Then in the past years Russia has marched into two different countries.

We have also had multiple terrorist attacks in Europe lately, despite being a gun free area generally.

When half of the continent of Europe was under lock and key that was because this was the immediate aftermath of a world war that featured a major genocide....which was committed using guns.

In response to the developing war Churchill made it clear that the strategy when they bust into your house is to "take one with you." He meant with guns. 

Once this war was over Stalin initiated another genocide of his own people because...well they were poor essentially.  He used guns for that.

All this comes not too long after....the first world war and ....the Armenian genocide. 

And in the mean time just for kicks mafia violence in Italy is so severe that the Pope just excommunicated the Mafia.

The history of gun violence in Europe is far more extensive than in North America....except in Switzerland where absolutely everyone has a gun. 

Now we have Putin telling Poland and Romania not to place missile defense shields...or else.

Bottom line...at any time in the last 75 to 100ish years in Europe you were far more likely to be killed by a gun ...or you were more likely to be marched to a gas chamber or a train taking you to Siberia...by guys with guns, than in North America.

If you want to cherry pick and use only "western Europe" or "the developed nations" ok fine you can compare really only the better half of Europe if you want to, but then I get to use the best half of America instead of the poorest.


Would you consider the USA developed nation?
I'm not talking about war torn pockets of Europe, or the Italian Mafia. You're referencing wars and European history.

We are talking about developed countries. There are currently no wars in Sweden, the UK, Ireland, Australia, Canada. There are also no wars in the USA- yet there are thousands of people dying by fire arm and you are way more likely to die in the good ol' USA than any of these other countries. Why? Because of guns.

Why do so many Americans die by firearms? The country is broken and the constitution ensures that it won't be fixed. Just sad.
I'm just more of an apples to apples guy. I try to compare places that are similar in size and population like Europe to N America. I also try to compare places similar in economic outlook.  Then there is demographic comparisons.  I think comparing a small country with no diversity whatsoever like Denmark or Sweden to America is not a good comparison. If we want to go with France....well ok. Maybe we could compare France to an area like New England and New York combined or something...oops...France treats it's minorities like crud....I mean the minorities it still has after it collaborated during WW2 to eliminate all it's Jews....using guns.

Ah, but after WW2 Europe wasn't done visiting violence on the world. They set up Israel at the expense of the Palestinians because realistically Europe didn't want the Jews they failed to kill to resettle in Europe.   Currently in peaceful Denmark there is a serious proposal to take the wallets of refugees. Welcome to Denmark. Now give us your wallet.

Europe is just as racist and just as violent, and in many ways much more so than North America. Are they prosperous? Most of the continent is. Is it safe? Mostly. But so is America and we've done so without major genocides here in the last 120 years. Europe...not so much.

Re: Pelicans guard Bryce Dejean Jones Shot and Killed
« Reply #54 on: May 29, 2016, 10:59:49 PM »

Offline chambers

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Here are some facts:
In the USA, you are 10 times more likely to be killed by a gun, than in other developed countries

Of countries with substantial income by GDP, the USA's murder by gun rate is 25 times higher than any other country considered to have a high income.


Even though the USA's suicide rate is similar to other developed countries, the rate of suicides by firearm is 8 times higher than any other developed country.

CBS did a great study on this earlier this year, and it's worth a read.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-u-s-gun-deaths-compare-to-other-countries/

"(In the USA...) offenders take into account the threat posed by their adversaries. Individuals are more likely to have lethal intent if they anticipate that their adversaries will be armed," she explained.

Even though it has half the population of the other 22 nations combined, the United States accounted for 82 percent of all gun deaths. The United States also accounted for 90 percent of all women killed by guns, the study found. Ninety-one percent of children under 14 who died by gun violence were in the United States. And 92 percent of young people between ages 15 and 24 killed by guns were in the United States, the study found"

*Murder is the second leading cause of death among Americans aged 15 to 24, the study found. *Murder was the third leading cause of death among those aged 25-34.
*Compared to those in the same age groups in other wealthy countries, Americans aged 15-24 are 49 times more likely to be the victim of a gun-related murder. For those aged 25-34, that number is 32 times more likely."



The death by firearm rates in the USA are completely and utterly disgraceful. For a country with the kind of GDP, social liberty and supposed protection of the people by their government- an awful lot of people die unnecessarily, particularly by firearms.

If you don't think there's a problem with gun control in the USA, that's fine. But you must then admit that something else is seriously broken with the social system in America if socio economic factors are influencing these deaths more than the literal flood of firearms swimming around the USA.
For a country that often declares itself 'the greatest nation on earth', it does a terrible job of nurturing, providing for, and protecting all citizens as equals.

I love the USA. My wife is American. I'm thankful for everything the USA has done to protect the world from the bad guys. But Americans are suffering and are being failed by their governments when this many people die by firearm. Something is broken and unfortunately because of the constitution, it will probably never be fixed.

Another good read about how unique this problem is and why it will never go away....
http://www.vox.com/2015/10/3/9444417/gun-violence-united-states-america
No. We need context.  In Europe in the past 50 years we had half of the continent with absolutely zero freedom whatsoever.  There was a Balkans genocide. Then in the past years Russia has marched into two different countries.

We have also had multiple terrorist attacks in Europe lately, despite being a gun free area generally.

When half of the continent of Europe was under lock and key that was because this was the immediate aftermath of a world war that featured a major genocide....which was committed using guns.

In response to the developing war Churchill made it clear that the strategy when they bust into your house is to "take one with you." He meant with guns. 

Once this war was over Stalin initiated another genocide of his own people because...well they were poor essentially.  He used guns for that.

All this comes not too long after....the first world war and ....the Armenian genocide. 

And in the mean time just for kicks mafia violence in Italy is so severe that the Pope just excommunicated the Mafia.

The history of gun violence in Europe is far more extensive than in North America....except in Switzerland where absolutely everyone has a gun. 

Now we have Putin telling Poland and Romania not to place missile defense shields...or else.

Bottom line...at any time in the last 75 to 100ish years in Europe you were far more likely to be killed by a gun ...or you were more likely to be marched to a gas chamber or a train taking you to Siberia...by guys with guns, than in North America.

If you want to cherry pick and use only "western Europe" or "the developed nations" ok fine you can compare really only the better half of Europe if you want to, but then I get to use the best half of America instead of the poorest.


Would you consider the USA developed nation?
I'm not talking about war torn pockets of Europe, or the Italian Mafia. You're referencing wars and European history.

We are talking about developed countries. There are currently no wars in Sweden, the UK, Ireland, Australia, Canada. There are also no wars in the USA- yet there are thousands of people dying by fire arm and you are way more likely to die in the good ol' USA than any of these other countries. Why? Because of guns.

Why do so many Americans die by firearms? The country is broken and the constitution ensures that it won't be fixed. Just sad.
I'm just more of an apples to apples guy. I try to compare places that are similar in size and population like Europe to N America. I also try to compare places similar in economic outlook.  Then there is demographic comparisons.  I think comparing a small country with no diversity whatsoever like Denmark or Sweden to America is not a good comparison. If we want to go with France....well ok. Maybe we could compare France to an area like New England and New York combined or something...oops...France treats it's minorities like crud....I mean the minorities it still has after it collaborated during WW2 to eliminate all it's Jews....using guns.

Ah, but after WW2 Europe wasn't done visiting violence on the world. They set up Israel at the expense of the Palestinians because realistically Europe didn't want the Jews they failed to kill to resettle in Europe.   Currently in peaceful Denmark there is a serious proposal to take the wallets of refugees. Welcome to Denmark. Now give us your wallet.

Europe is just as racist and just as violent, and in many ways much more so than North America. Are they prosperous? Most of the continent is. Is it safe? Mostly. But so is America and we've done so without major genocides here in the last 120 years. Europe...not so much.

You're deflecting in every post about this. Address the point, the question. Why do so many Americans die from guns vs the rest of the developed world?
I'm not talking about racism or European history. These sound like your 'go to' points. Your argument is basically:
 'Well Europe isn't perfect and there are some 3rd world countries there with violence, so that means it's okay that more Americans die from guns than any other developed nation because nobody's perfect'.

Again, compared to the rest of the developed world, American citizens are about 25 times more likely to be murdered by a gun a than any of these other countries.

Why is that?
Don't deflect to Europe or  world history. We are talking about 'wealthy nations' and the developed world.
Explain to me why the USA has so much gun violence?
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Pelicans guard Bryce Dejean Jones Shot and Killed
« Reply #55 on: May 29, 2016, 11:13:46 PM »

Offline LatterDayCelticsfan

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Wouldn't have happened if they didn't live in a gun culture.. I'm never gonna be able to understand that.

I don't blame gun culture for this one. If you kick down somebody's front door and bedroom door at 3am, there are likely to be bad consequences in any culture.  This seems like nothing other than legitimate home protection.
have to agree that this can't be blamed on the gun culture.  if anything, it supports the notion people should be armed to protect themselves and their home from break ins.

unfortunate no matter how you look at it

Doesn't have to be a lethal weapon like a gun does it?

What if there were multiple intruders? What if they were armed?
What ifs?


Maybe he gets overpowered and shot with  his own gun?
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Re: Pelicans guard Bryce Dejean Jones Shot and Killed
« Reply #56 on: May 29, 2016, 11:15:46 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Wouldn't have happened if they didn't live in a gun culture.. I'm never gonna be able to understand that.

I don't blame gun culture for this one. If you kick down somebody's front door and bedroom door at 3am, there are likely to be bad consequences in any culture.  This seems like nothing other than legitimate home protection.
have to agree that this can't be blamed on the gun culture.  if anything, it supports the notion people should be armed to protect themselves and their home from break ins.

unfortunate no matter how you look at it

Doesn't have to be a lethal weapon like a gun does it?

What if there were multiple intruders? What if they were armed?
What ifs?

Yes, people need to protect themselves from what ifs.


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Re: Pelicans guard Bryce Dejean Jones Shot and Killed
« Reply #57 on: May 29, 2016, 11:41:50 PM »

Offline Eja117

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Here are some facts:
In the USA, you are 10 times more likely to be killed by a gun, than in other developed countries

Of countries with substantial income by GDP, the USA's murder by gun rate is 25 times higher than any other country considered to have a high income.


Even though the USA's suicide rate is similar to other developed countries, the rate of suicides by firearm is 8 times higher than any other developed country.

CBS did a great study on this earlier this year, and it's worth a read.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-u-s-gun-deaths-compare-to-other-countries/

"(In the USA...) offenders take into account the threat posed by their adversaries. Individuals are more likely to have lethal intent if they anticipate that their adversaries will be armed," she explained.

Even though it has half the population of the other 22 nations combined, the United States accounted for 82 percent of all gun deaths. The United States also accounted for 90 percent of all women killed by guns, the study found. Ninety-one percent of children under 14 who died by gun violence were in the United States. And 92 percent of young people between ages 15 and 24 killed by guns were in the United States, the study found"

*Murder is the second leading cause of death among Americans aged 15 to 24, the study found. *Murder was the third leading cause of death among those aged 25-34.
*Compared to those in the same age groups in other wealthy countries, Americans aged 15-24 are 49 times more likely to be the victim of a gun-related murder. For those aged 25-34, that number is 32 times more likely."



The death by firearm rates in the USA are completely and utterly disgraceful. For a country with the kind of GDP, social liberty and supposed protection of the people by their government- an awful lot of people die unnecessarily, particularly by firearms.

If you don't think there's a problem with gun control in the USA, that's fine. But you must then admit that something else is seriously broken with the social system in America if socio economic factors are influencing these deaths more than the literal flood of firearms swimming around the USA.
For a country that often declares itself 'the greatest nation on earth', it does a terrible job of nurturing, providing for, and protecting all citizens as equals.

I love the USA. My wife is American. I'm thankful for everything the USA has done to protect the world from the bad guys. But Americans are suffering and are being failed by their governments when this many people die by firearm. Something is broken and unfortunately because of the constitution, it will probably never be fixed.

Another good read about how unique this problem is and why it will never go away....
http://www.vox.com/2015/10/3/9444417/gun-violence-united-states-america
No. We need context.  In Europe in the past 50 years we had half of the continent with absolutely zero freedom whatsoever.  There was a Balkans genocide. Then in the past years Russia has marched into two different countries.

We have also had multiple terrorist attacks in Europe lately, despite being a gun free area generally.

When half of the continent of Europe was under lock and key that was because this was the immediate aftermath of a world war that featured a major genocide....which was committed using guns.

In response to the developing war Churchill made it clear that the strategy when they bust into your house is to "take one with you." He meant with guns. 

Once this war was over Stalin initiated another genocide of his own people because...well they were poor essentially.  He used guns for that.

All this comes not too long after....the first world war and ....the Armenian genocide. 

And in the mean time just for kicks mafia violence in Italy is so severe that the Pope just excommunicated the Mafia.

The history of gun violence in Europe is far more extensive than in North America....except in Switzerland where absolutely everyone has a gun. 

Now we have Putin telling Poland and Romania not to place missile defense shields...or else.

Bottom line...at any time in the last 75 to 100ish years in Europe you were far more likely to be killed by a gun ...or you were more likely to be marched to a gas chamber or a train taking you to Siberia...by guys with guns, than in North America.

If you want to cherry pick and use only "western Europe" or "the developed nations" ok fine you can compare really only the better half of Europe if you want to, but then I get to use the best half of America instead of the poorest.


Would you consider the USA developed nation?
I'm not talking about war torn pockets of Europe, or the Italian Mafia. You're referencing wars and European history.

We are talking about developed countries. There are currently no wars in Sweden, the UK, Ireland, Australia, Canada. There are also no wars in the USA- yet there are thousands of people dying by fire arm and you are way more likely to die in the good ol' USA than any of these other countries. Why? Because of guns.

Why do so many Americans die by firearms? The country is broken and the constitution ensures that it won't be fixed. Just sad.
I'm just more of an apples to apples guy. I try to compare places that are similar in size and population like Europe to N America. I also try to compare places similar in economic outlook.  Then there is demographic comparisons.  I think comparing a small country with no diversity whatsoever like Denmark or Sweden to America is not a good comparison. If we want to go with France....well ok. Maybe we could compare France to an area like New England and New York combined or something...oops...France treats it's minorities like crud....I mean the minorities it still has after it collaborated during WW2 to eliminate all it's Jews....using guns.

Ah, but after WW2 Europe wasn't done visiting violence on the world. They set up Israel at the expense of the Palestinians because realistically Europe didn't want the Jews they failed to kill to resettle in Europe.   Currently in peaceful Denmark there is a serious proposal to take the wallets of refugees. Welcome to Denmark. Now give us your wallet.

Europe is just as racist and just as violent, and in many ways much more so than North America. Are they prosperous? Most of the continent is. Is it safe? Mostly. But so is America and we've done so without major genocides here in the last 120 years. Europe...not so much.

You're deflecting in every post about this. Address the point, the question. Why do so many Americans die from guns vs the rest of the developed world?
I'm not talking about racism or European history. These sound like your 'go to' points. Your argument is basically:
 'Well Europe isn't perfect and there are some 3rd world countries there with violence, so that means it's okay that more Americans die from guns than any other developed nation because nobody's perfect'.

Again, compared to the rest of the developed world, American citizens are about 25 times more likely to be murdered by a gun a than any of these other countries.

Why is that?
Don't deflect to Europe or  world history. We are talking about 'wealthy nations' and the developed world.
Explain to me why the USA has so much gun violence?
America does not have a gun problem. It has a gun solution perhaps similar to Switzerland. When a guy busts down a door at 3am and gets shot that is not a gun problem. It is a gun solution.

There is a very simple reason America's gun culture is different.  In America there are no elites. In Europe or Japan and other places that evolved out of royal feudal societies people are compliant. If you tell them to get into train cars they'll do it. You can march into their country and not really experience a lot of resistance.  In Europe they want only the elites to have guns. It makes it easier whenever Europe decides to have another one of their genocides. Ask the Roma people of Europe how much they wish they could have guns right now. In America there are no hereditary elites. There are no kings. We don't courtesy to anyone. Because in America you are your own king and nobody gets to tell you what you can have in your home to protect it. Especially not in wide open places like Montana or Texas where not that long ago the closest thing to law was a day's ride away.

Now.  Let's discuss how Europe has a genocide problem and a marching into other countries problem and how a lack of guns contributes to that. So currently with Putin eyeing the Baltics do you suppose he is more or less likely to invade there if the people are thoroughly armed? When and if he manages to successfully invade and he decides there are some people there he doesn't like will it be easier or harder for him to remove them if they are thoroughly armed? 

See? Europe has a serious lack of guns problem that America just doesn't have.

Re: Pelicans guard Bryce Dejean Jones Shot and Killed
« Reply #58 on: May 30, 2016, 01:58:45 AM »

Offline chambers

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Here are some facts:
In the USA, you are 10 times more likely to be killed by a gun, than in other developed countries

Of countries with substantial income by GDP, the USA's murder by gun rate is 25 times higher than any other country considered to have a high income.


Even though the USA's suicide rate is similar to other developed countries, the rate of suicides by firearm is 8 times higher than any other developed country.

CBS did a great study on this earlier this year, and it's worth a read.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-u-s-gun-deaths-compare-to-other-countries/

"(In the USA...) offenders take into account the threat posed by their adversaries. Individuals are more likely to have lethal intent if they anticipate that their adversaries will be armed," she explained.

Even though it has half the population of the other 22 nations combined, the United States accounted for 82 percent of all gun deaths. The United States also accounted for 90 percent of all women killed by guns, the study found. Ninety-one percent of children under 14 who died by gun violence were in the United States. And 92 percent of young people between ages 15 and 24 killed by guns were in the United States, the study found"

*Murder is the second leading cause of death among Americans aged 15 to 24, the study found. *Murder was the third leading cause of death among those aged 25-34.
*Compared to those in the same age groups in other wealthy countries, Americans aged 15-24 are 49 times more likely to be the victim of a gun-related murder. For those aged 25-34, that number is 32 times more likely."



The death by firearm rates in the USA are completely and utterly disgraceful. For a country with the kind of GDP, social liberty and supposed protection of the people by their government- an awful lot of people die unnecessarily, particularly by firearms.

If you don't think there's a problem with gun control in the USA, that's fine. But you must then admit that something else is seriously broken with the social system in America if socio economic factors are influencing these deaths more than the literal flood of firearms swimming around the USA.
For a country that often declares itself 'the greatest nation on earth', it does a terrible job of nurturing, providing for, and protecting all citizens as equals.

I love the USA. My wife is American. I'm thankful for everything the USA has done to protect the world from the bad guys. But Americans are suffering and are being failed by their governments when this many people die by firearm. Something is broken and unfortunately because of the constitution, it will probably never be fixed.

Another good read about how unique this problem is and why it will never go away....
http://www.vox.com/2015/10/3/9444417/gun-violence-united-states-america
No. We need context.  In Europe in the past 50 years we had half of the continent with absolutely zero freedom whatsoever.  There was a Balkans genocide. Then in the past years Russia has marched into two different countries.

We have also had multiple terrorist attacks in Europe lately, despite being a gun free area generally.

When half of the continent of Europe was under lock and key that was because this was the immediate aftermath of a world war that featured a major genocide....which was committed using guns.

In response to the developing war Churchill made it clear that the strategy when they bust into your house is to "take one with you." He meant with guns. 

Once this war was over Stalin initiated another genocide of his own people because...well they were poor essentially.  He used guns for that.

All this comes not too long after....the first world war and ....the Armenian genocide. 

And in the mean time just for kicks mafia violence in Italy is so severe that the Pope just excommunicated the Mafia.

The history of gun violence in Europe is far more extensive than in North America....except in Switzerland where absolutely everyone has a gun. 

Now we have Putin telling Poland and Romania not to place missile defense shields...or else.

Bottom line...at any time in the last 75 to 100ish years in Europe you were far more likely to be killed by a gun ...or you were more likely to be marched to a gas chamber or a train taking you to Siberia...by guys with guns, than in North America.

If you want to cherry pick and use only "western Europe" or "the developed nations" ok fine you can compare really only the better half of Europe if you want to, but then I get to use the best half of America instead of the poorest.


Would you consider the USA developed nation?
I'm not talking about war torn pockets of Europe, or the Italian Mafia. You're referencing wars and European history.

We are talking about developed countries. There are currently no wars in Sweden, the UK, Ireland, Australia, Canada. There are also no wars in the USA- yet there are thousands of people dying by fire arm and you are way more likely to die in the good ol' USA than any of these other countries. Why? Because of guns.

Why do so many Americans die by firearms? The country is broken and the constitution ensures that it won't be fixed. Just sad.
I'm just more of an apples to apples guy. I try to compare places that are similar in size and population like Europe to N America. I also try to compare places similar in economic outlook.  Then there is demographic comparisons.  I think comparing a small country with no diversity whatsoever like Denmark or Sweden to America is not a good comparison. If we want to go with France....well ok. Maybe we could compare France to an area like New England and New York combined or something...oops...France treats it's minorities like crud....I mean the minorities it still has after it collaborated during WW2 to eliminate all it's Jews....using guns.

Ah, but after WW2 Europe wasn't done visiting violence on the world. They set up Israel at the expense of the Palestinians because realistically Europe didn't want the Jews they failed to kill to resettle in Europe.   Currently in peaceful Denmark there is a serious proposal to take the wallets of refugees. Welcome to Denmark. Now give us your wallet.

Europe is just as racist and just as violent, and in many ways much more so than North America. Are they prosperous? Most of the continent is. Is it safe? Mostly. But so is America and we've done so without major genocides here in the last 120 years. Europe...not so much.

You're deflecting in every post about this. Address the point, the question. Why do so many Americans die from guns vs the rest of the developed world?
I'm not talking about racism or European history. These sound like your 'go to' points. Your argument is basically:
 'Well Europe isn't perfect and there are some 3rd world countries there with violence, so that means it's okay that more Americans die from guns than any other developed nation because nobody's perfect'.

Again, compared to the rest of the developed world, American citizens are about 25 times more likely to be murdered by a gun a than any of these other countries.

Why is that?
Don't deflect to Europe or  world history. We are talking about 'wealthy nations' and the developed world.
Explain to me why the USA has so much gun violence?
America does not have a gun problem. It has a gun solution perhaps similar to Switzerland. When a guy busts down a door at 3am and gets shot that is not a gun problem. It is a gun solution.

There is a very simple reason America's gun culture is different.  In America there are no elites. In Europe or Japan and other places that evolved out of royal feudal societies people are compliant. If you tell them to get into train cars they'll do it. You can march into their country and not really experience a lot of resistance.  In Europe they want only the elites to have guns. It makes it easier whenever Europe decides to have another one of their genocides. Ask the Roma people of Europe how much they wish they could have guns right now. In America there are no hereditary elites. There are no kings. We don't courtesy to anyone. Because in America you are your own king and nobody gets to tell you what you can have in your home to protect it. Especially not in wide open places like Montana or Texas where not that long ago the closest thing to law was a day's ride away.

Now.  Let's discuss how Europe has a genocide problem and a marching into other countries problem and how a lack of guns contributes to that. So currently with Putin eyeing the Baltics do you suppose he is more or less likely to invade there if the people are thoroughly armed? When and if he manages to successfully invade and he decides there are some people there he doesn't like will it be easier or harder for him to remove them if they are thoroughly armed? 

See? Europe has a serious lack of guns problem that America just doesn't have.

Sigh. America has a gun solution, not a problem?
There are no elites in America?

I'm going to have to stop now.
Good day.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Pelicans guard Bryce Dejean Jones Shot and Killed
« Reply #59 on: May 30, 2016, 04:51:34 AM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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Eja, you're way off base with a lot of these claims. Just a few pointers to think about

1) The Vichy government collaborated with the Nazis. They were outnumbered by those French who formed the resistance that saved 1000s of lives during the occupation. There are also a few famous examples of people from the Vichy government who after its collapse formed a key part in the resistance. It's important to remember things like this before talking so brashly about a subject.

2) If you are using Europe as the comparison then that does not include Russia. Really you should be using the EU countries as that is the closest economical comparison.

3) Israel was created from land owned by the British however it was the significant pressure from the Americans, in particular their wealthy and strong Jewish community, that led to what you currently are as borders. So you can't pin that on just Europe.

4) I don't think Putin gives a toss if the people of the Balkans are armed. I doubt they would have much more of a chance with a gun against a trained army than without.

All your arguments are using war time Europe against peace time America. Unless you believe America has an internal war currently happening? Chambers was comparing current peace time figures for the most developed countries in the world which is the most fair comparison.