Pelicans guard Bryce Dejean Jones Shot and Killed

[Eja117]

Eja, you're way off base with a lot of these claims. Just a few pointers to think about

1) The Vichy government collaborated with the Nazis. They were outnumbered by those French who formed the resistance that saved 1000s of lives during the occupation. There are also a few famous examples of people from the Vichy government who after its collapse formed a key part in the resistance. It's important to remember things like this before talking so brashly about a subject.

2) If you are using Europe as the comparison then that does not include Russia. Really you should be using the EU countries as that is the closest economical comparison.

3) Israel was created from land owned by the British however it was the significant pressure from the Americans, in particular their wealthy and strong Jewish community, that led to what you currently are as borders. So you can't pin that on just Europe.

4) I don't think Putin gives a toss if the people of the Balkans are armed. I doubt they would have much more of a chance with a gun against a trained army than without.

All your arguments are using war time Europe against peace time America. Unless you believe America has an internal war currently happening? Chambers was comparing current peace time figures for the most developed countries in the world which is the most fair comparison.

1  There was tremendous Holocaust cooperation across Europe and sadly that is one of only 4 major European genocides in the 20th century. It is well known that across Europe, in some places, it can be very difficult being a certain kind of minority. Life isn't all rainbows in Europe.

2. Russia is absolutely Europe, especially when it encroaches into Europe.

3. The UN at the time was largely the Euro countries. Just look at the ones with veto power....all essentially Euro cultures and one Asian country.

4. The Partizan movements of East Europe mattered. Governments don't prefer armed resistance. The Afghans armed themselves. Ever seen grave stones of young Soviets that got their heads blown off in Afghanistan? It's very different in America. In America the soldier maybe gets a cross. In East Europe they put a picture of their faces in the stone. Quite different.

I am not at all off base saying the history of European gun violence far exceeds the history of American gun violence. Somehow nobody ever really pays attention to that. You can have a war actually happening in Europe and people will say "There is just so much gun violence in America."

And there would have been more violence in Europe and more bad times had it not been for American guns. First in WW2 and then with NATO.  Some of these countries are as safe as they are because they are guarded by Americans with guns.

[Clench123]

Here are some facts:
In the USA, you are 10 times more likely to be killed by a gun, than in other developed countries

Of countries with substantial income by GDP, the USA's murder by gun rate is 25 times higher than any other country considered to have a high income.


Even though the USA's suicide rate is similar to other developed countries, the rate of suicides by firearm is 8 times higher than any other developed country.

CBS did a great study on this earlier this year, and it's worth a read.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-u-s-gun-deaths-compare-to-other-countries/

"(In the USA...) offenders take into account the threat posed by their adversaries. Individuals are more likely to have lethal intent if they anticipate that their adversaries will be armed," she explained.

Even though it has half the population of the other 22 nations combined, the United States accounted for 82 percent of all gun deaths. The United States also accounted for 90 percent of all women killed by guns, the study found. Ninety-one percent of children under 14 who died by gun violence were in the United States. And 92 percent of young people between ages 15 and 24 killed by guns were in the United States, the study found"

*Murder is the second leading cause of death among Americans aged 15 to 24, the study found. *Murder was the third leading cause of death among those aged 25-34.
*Compared to those in the same age groups in other wealthy countries, Americans aged 15-24 are 49 times more likely to be the victim of a gun-related murder. For those aged 25-34, that number is 32 times more likely."



The death by firearm rates in the USA are completely and utterly disgraceful. For a country with the kind of GDP, social liberty and supposed protection of the people by their government- an awful lot of people die unnecessarily, particularly by firearms.

If you don't think there's a problem with gun control in the USA, that's fine. But you must then admit that something else is seriously broken with the social system in America if socio economic factors are influencing these deaths more than the literal flood of firearms swimming around the USA.
For a country that often declares itself 'the greatest nation on earth', it does a terrible job of nurturing, providing for, and protecting all citizens as equals.

I love the USA. My wife is American. I'm thankful for everything the USA has done to protect the world from the bad guys. But Americans are suffering and are being failed by their governments when this many people die by firearm. Something is broken and unfortunately because of the constitution, it will probably never be fixed.

Another good read about how unique this problem is and why it will never go away....
http://www.vox.com/2015/10/3/9444417/gun-violence-united-states-america

No. We need context.  In Europe in the past 50 years we had half of the continent with absolutely zero freedom whatsoever.  There was a Balkans genocide. Then in the past years Russia has marched into two different countries.

We have also had multiple terrorist attacks in Europe lately, despite being a gun free area generally.

When half of the continent of Europe was under lock and key that was because this was the immediate aftermath of a world war that featured a major genocide....which was committed using guns.

In response to the developing war Churchill made it clear that the strategy when they bust into your house is to "take one with you." He meant with guns. 

Once this war was over Stalin initiated another genocide of his own people because...well they were poor essentially.  He used guns for that.

All this comes not too long after....the first world war and ....the Armenian genocide. 

And in the mean time just for kicks mafia violence in Italy is so severe that the Pope just excommunicated the Mafia.

The history of gun violence in Europe is far more extensive than in North America....except in Switzerland where absolutely everyone has a gun. 

Now we have Putin telling Poland and Romania not to place missile defense shields...or else.

Bottom line...at any time in the last 75 to 100ish years in Europe you were far more likely to be killed by a gun ...or you were more likely to be marched to a gas chamber or a train taking you to Siberia...by guys with guns, than in North America.

If you want to cherry pick and use only "western Europe" or "the developed nations" ok fine you can compare really only the better half of Europe if you want to, but then I get to use the best half of America instead of the poorest.

Would you consider the USA developed nation?
I'm not talking about war torn pockets of Europe, or the Italian Mafia. You're referencing wars and European history.

We are talking about developed countries. There are currently no wars in Sweden, the UK, Ireland, Australia, Canada. There are also no wars in the USA- yet there are thousands of people dying by fire arm and you are way more likely to die in the good ol' USA than any of these other countries. Why? Because of guns.

Why do so many Americans die by firearms? The country is broken and the constitution ensures that it won't be fixed. Just sad.

I'm just more of an apples to apples guy. I try to compare places that are similar in size and population like Europe to N America. I also try to compare places similar in economic outlook.  Then there is demographic comparisons.  I think comparing a small country with no diversity whatsoever like Denmark or Sweden to America is not a good comparison. If we want to go with France....well ok. Maybe we could compare France to an area like New England and New York combined or something...oops...France treats it's minorities like crud....I mean the minorities it still has after it collaborated during WW2 to eliminate all it's Jews....using guns.

Ah, but after WW2 Europe wasn't done visiting violence on the world. They set up Israel at the expense of the Palestinians because realistically Europe didn't want the Jews they failed to kill to resettle in Europe.   Currently in peaceful Denmark there is a serious proposal to take the wallets of refugees. Welcome to Denmark. Now give us your wallet.

Europe is just as racist and just as violent, and in many ways much more so than North America. Are they prosperous? Most of the continent is. Is it safe? Mostly. But so is America and we've done so without major genocides here in the last 120 years. Europe...not so much.

You're deflecting in every post about this. Address the point, the question. Why do so many Americans die from guns vs the rest of the developed world?
I'm not talking about racism or European history. These sound like your 'go to' points. Your argument is basically:
 'Well Europe isn't perfect and there are some 3rd world countries there with violence, so that means it's okay that more Americans die from guns than any other developed nation because nobody's perfect'.

Again, compared to the rest of the developed world, American citizens are about 25 times more likely to be murdered by a gun a than any of these other countries.

Why is that?
Don't deflect to Europe or  world history. We are talking about 'wealthy nations' and the developed world.
Explain to me why the USA has so much gun violence?

America does not have a gun problem. It has a gun solution perhaps similar to Switzerland. When a guy busts down a door at 3am and gets shot that is not a gun problem. It is a gun solution.

There is a very simple reason America's gun culture is different.  In America there are no elites. In Europe or Japan and other places that evolved out of royal feudal societies people are compliant. If you tell them to get into train cars they'll do it. You can march into their country and not really experience a lot of resistance.  In Europe they want only the elites to have guns. It makes it easier whenever Europe decides to have another one of their genocides. Ask the Roma people of Europe how much they wish they could have guns right now. In America there are no hereditary elites. There are no kings. We don't courtesy to anyone. Because in America you are your own king and nobody gets to tell you what you can have in your home to protect it. Especially not in wide open places like Montana or Texas where not that long ago the closest thing to law was a day's ride away.

Now.  Let's discuss how Europe has a genocide problem and a marching into other countries problem and how a lack of guns contributes to that. So currently with Putin eyeing the Baltics do you suppose he is more or less likely to invade there if the people are thoroughly armed? When and if he manages to successfully invade and he decides there are some people there he doesn't like will it be easier or harder for him to remove them if they are thoroughly armed? 

See? Europe has a serious lack of guns problem that America just doesn't have.

Sigh. America has a gun solution, not a problem?
There are no elites in America?

I'm going to have to stop now.
Good day.

LOL Yea, I read that part and cringed.  That's where his whole argument fell apart.

The backward-thinking argument, severely lacking in logic, for guns in America shows how deep the problem goes. 

What is often evaded in these arguments is the violent history of this country from day one.  The pro-gun argument would be a solid one if tackled from that point of view.  What that would inversely reveal, however, are some other uncomfortable truths these country has perpetually shielded from...

[Eja117]

Here are some facts:
In the USA, you are 10 times more likely to be killed by a gun, than in other developed countries

Of countries with substantial income by GDP, the USA's murder by gun rate is 25 times higher than any other country considered to have a high income.


Even though the USA's suicide rate is similar to other developed countries, the rate of suicides by firearm is 8 times higher than any other developed country.

CBS did a great study on this earlier this year, and it's worth a read.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-u-s-gun-deaths-compare-to-other-countries/

"(In the USA...) offenders take into account the threat posed by their adversaries. Individuals are more likely to have lethal intent if they anticipate that their adversaries will be armed," she explained.

Even though it has half the population of the other 22 nations combined, the United States accounted for 82 percent of all gun deaths. The United States also accounted for 90 percent of all women killed by guns, the study found. Ninety-one percent of children under 14 who died by gun violence were in the United States. And 92 percent of young people between ages 15 and 24 killed by guns were in the United States, the study found"

*Murder is the second leading cause of death among Americans aged 15 to 24, the study found. *Murder was the third leading cause of death among those aged 25-34.
*Compared to those in the same age groups in other wealthy countries, Americans aged 15-24 are 49 times more likely to be the victim of a gun-related murder. For those aged 25-34, that number is 32 times more likely."



The death by firearm rates in the USA are completely and utterly disgraceful. For a country with the kind of GDP, social liberty and supposed protection of the people by their government- an awful lot of people die unnecessarily, particularly by firearms.

If you don't think there's a problem with gun control in the USA, that's fine. But you must then admit that something else is seriously broken with the social system in America if socio economic factors are influencing these deaths more than the literal flood of firearms swimming around the USA.
For a country that often declares itself 'the greatest nation on earth', it does a terrible job of nurturing, providing for, and protecting all citizens as equals.

I love the USA. My wife is American. I'm thankful for everything the USA has done to protect the world from the bad guys. But Americans are suffering and are being failed by their governments when this many people die by firearm. Something is broken and unfortunately because of the constitution, it will probably never be fixed.

Another good read about how unique this problem is and why it will never go away....
http://www.vox.com/2015/10/3/9444417/gun-violence-united-states-america

No. We need context.  In Europe in the past 50 years we had half of the continent with absolutely zero freedom whatsoever.  There was a Balkans genocide. Then in the past years Russia has marched into two different countries.

We have also had multiple terrorist attacks in Europe lately, despite being a gun free area generally.

When half of the continent of Europe was under lock and key that was because this was the immediate aftermath of a world war that featured a major genocide....which was committed using guns.

In response to the developing war Churchill made it clear that the strategy when they bust into your house is to "take one with you." He meant with guns. 

Once this war was over Stalin initiated another genocide of his own people because...well they were poor essentially.  He used guns for that.

All this comes not too long after....the first world war and ....the Armenian genocide. 

And in the mean time just for kicks mafia violence in Italy is so severe that the Pope just excommunicated the Mafia.

The history of gun violence in Europe is far more extensive than in North America....except in Switzerland where absolutely everyone has a gun. 

Now we have Putin telling Poland and Romania not to place missile defense shields...or else.

Bottom line...at any time in the last 75 to 100ish years in Europe you were far more likely to be killed by a gun ...or you were more likely to be marched to a gas chamber or a train taking you to Siberia...by guys with guns, than in North America.

If you want to cherry pick and use only "western Europe" or "the developed nations" ok fine you can compare really only the better half of Europe if you want to, but then I get to use the best half of America instead of the poorest.

Would you consider the USA developed nation?
I'm not talking about war torn pockets of Europe, or the Italian Mafia. You're referencing wars and European history.

We are talking about developed countries. There are currently no wars in Sweden, the UK, Ireland, Australia, Canada. There are also no wars in the USA- yet there are thousands of people dying by fire arm and you are way more likely to die in the good ol' USA than any of these other countries. Why? Because of guns.

Why do so many Americans die by firearms? The country is broken and the constitution ensures that it won't be fixed. Just sad.

I'm just more of an apples to apples guy. I try to compare places that are similar in size and population like Europe to N America. I also try to compare places similar in economic outlook.  Then there is demographic comparisons.  I think comparing a small country with no diversity whatsoever like Denmark or Sweden to America is not a good comparison. If we want to go with France....well ok. Maybe we could compare France to an area like New England and New York combined or something...oops...France treats it's minorities like crud....I mean the minorities it still has after it collaborated during WW2 to eliminate all it's Jews....using guns.

Ah, but after WW2 Europe wasn't done visiting violence on the world. They set up Israel at the expense of the Palestinians because realistically Europe didn't want the Jews they failed to kill to resettle in Europe.   Currently in peaceful Denmark there is a serious proposal to take the wallets of refugees. Welcome to Denmark. Now give us your wallet.

Europe is just as racist and just as violent, and in many ways much more so than North America. Are they prosperous? Most of the continent is. Is it safe? Mostly. But so is America and we've done so without major genocides here in the last 120 years. Europe...not so much.

You're deflecting in every post about this. Address the point, the question. Why do so many Americans die from guns vs the rest of the developed world?
I'm not talking about racism or European history. These sound like your 'go to' points. Your argument is basically:
 'Well Europe isn't perfect and there are some 3rd world countries there with violence, so that means it's okay that more Americans die from guns than any other developed nation because nobody's perfect'.

Again, compared to the rest of the developed world, American citizens are about 25 times more likely to be murdered by a gun a than any of these other countries.

Why is that?
Don't deflect to Europe or  world history. We are talking about 'wealthy nations' and the developed world.
Explain to me why the USA has so much gun violence?

America does not have a gun problem. It has a gun solution perhaps similar to Switzerland. When a guy busts down a door at 3am and gets shot that is not a gun problem. It is a gun solution.

There is a very simple reason America's gun culture is different.  In America there are no elites. In Europe or Japan and other places that evolved out of royal feudal societies people are compliant. If you tell them to get into train cars they'll do it. You can march into their country and not really experience a lot of resistance.  In Europe they want only the elites to have guns. It makes it easier whenever Europe decides to have another one of their genocides. Ask the Roma people of Europe how much they wish they could have guns right now. In America there are no hereditary elites. There are no kings. We don't courtesy to anyone. Because in America you are your own king and nobody gets to tell you what you can have in your home to protect it. Especially not in wide open places like Montana or Texas where not that long ago the closest thing to law was a day's ride away.

Now.  Let's discuss how Europe has a genocide problem and a marching into other countries problem and how a lack of guns contributes to that. So currently with Putin eyeing the Baltics do you suppose he is more or less likely to invade there if the people are thoroughly armed? When and if he manages to successfully invade and he decides there are some people there he doesn't like will it be easier or harder for him to remove them if they are thoroughly armed? 

See? Europe has a serious lack of guns problem that America just doesn't have.

Sigh. America has a gun solution, not a problem?
There are no elites in America?

I'm going to have to stop now.
Good day.

LOL Yea, I read that part and cringed.  That's where his whole argument fell apart.

The backward-thinking argument, severely lacking in logic, for guns in America shows how deep the problem goes. 

What is often evaded in these arguments is the violent history of this country from day one.  The pro-gun argument would be a solid one if tackled from that point of view.  What that would inversely reveal, however, are some other uncomfortable truths these country has perpetually shielded from...

Feel free. Go on. I didn't hold back. I can agree to disagree.

[TheSundanceKid]

Eja, you're way off base with a lot of these claims. Just a few pointers to think about

1) The Vichy government collaborated with the Nazis. They were outnumbered by those French who formed the resistance that saved 1000s of lives during the occupation. There are also a few famous examples of people from the Vichy government who after its collapse formed a key part in the resistance. It's important to remember things like this before talking so brashly about a subject.

2) If you are using Europe as the comparison then that does not include Russia. Really you should be using the EU countries as that is the closest economical comparison.

3) Israel was created from land owned by the British however it was the significant pressure from the Americans, in particular their wealthy and strong Jewish community, that led to what you currently are as borders. So you can't pin that on just Europe.

4) I don't think Putin gives a toss if the people of the Balkans are armed. I doubt they would have much more of a chance with a gun against a trained army than without.

All your arguments are using war time Europe against peace time America. Unless you believe America has an internal war currently happening? Chambers was comparing current peace time figures for the most developed countries in the world which is the most fair comparison.

1  There was tremendous Holocaust cooperation across Europe and sadly that is one of only 4 major European genocides in the 20th century. It is well known that across Europe, in some places, it can be very difficult being a certain kind of minority. Life isn't all rainbows in Europe.

2. Russia is absolutely Europe, especially when it encroaches into Europe.

3. The UN at the time was largely the Euro countries. Just look at the ones with veto power....all essentially Euro cultures and one Asian country.

4. The Partizan movements of East Europe mattered. Governments don't prefer armed resistance. The Afghans armed themselves. Ever seen grave stones of young Soviets that got their heads blown off in Afghanistan? It's very different in America. In America the soldier maybe gets a cross. In East Europe they put a picture of their faces in the stone. Quite different.

I am not at all off base saying the history of European gun violence far exceeds the history of American gun violence. Somehow nobody ever really pays attention to that. You can have a war actually happening in Europe and people will say "There is just so much gun violence in America."

And there would have been more violence in Europe and more bad times had it not been for American guns. First in WW2 and then with NATO.  Some of these countries are as safe as they are because they are guarded by Americans with guns.

You are off base. American history is built off of gun violence. The war of independence, civil war, Indian Americans, and now the idea of being the protectors of the free world.

I never said Europe was perfect. I have said that the fact guns are freely available led to a death in this incident.

You're still going on a tangent about history in Europe. How many massacres of school children have there been in Europe in the last 5, 10, 20 years? How many have there been in the USA?

[Eja117]

Eja, you're way off base with a lot of these claims. Just a few pointers to think about

1) The Vichy government collaborated with the Nazis. They were outnumbered by those French who formed the resistance that saved 1000s of lives during the occupation. There are also a few famous examples of people from the Vichy government who after its collapse formed a key part in the resistance. It's important to remember things like this before talking so brashly about a subject.

2) If you are using Europe as the comparison then that does not include Russia. Really you should be using the EU countries as that is the closest economical comparison.

3) Israel was created from land owned by the British however it was the significant pressure from the Americans, in particular their wealthy and strong Jewish community, that led to what you currently are as borders. So you can't pin that on just Europe.

4) I don't think Putin gives a toss if the people of the Balkans are armed. I doubt they would have much more of a chance with a gun against a trained army than without.

All your arguments are using war time Europe against peace time America. Unless you believe America has an internal war currently happening? Chambers was comparing current peace time figures for the most developed countries in the world which is the most fair comparison.

1  There was tremendous Holocaust cooperation across Europe and sadly that is one of only 4 major European genocides in the 20th century. It is well known that across Europe, in some places, it can be very difficult being a certain kind of minority. Life isn't all rainbows in Europe.

2. Russia is absolutely Europe, especially when it encroaches into Europe.

3. The UN at the time was largely the Euro countries. Just look at the ones with veto power....all essentially Euro cultures and one Asian country.

4. The Partizan movements of East Europe mattered. Governments don't prefer armed resistance. The Afghans armed themselves. Ever seen grave stones of young Soviets that got their heads blown off in Afghanistan? It's very different in America. In America the soldier maybe gets a cross. In East Europe they put a picture of their faces in the stone. Quite different.

I am not at all off base saying the history of European gun violence far exceeds the history of American gun violence. Somehow nobody ever really pays attention to that. You can have a war actually happening in Europe and people will say "There is just so much gun violence in America."

And there would have been more violence in Europe and more bad times had it not been for American guns. First in WW2 and then with NATO.  Some of these countries are as safe as they are because they are guarded by Americans with guns.

You are off base. American history is built off of gun violence. The war of independence, civil war, Indian Americans, and now the idea of being the protectors of the free world.

I never said Europe was perfect. I have said that the fact guns are freely available led to a death in this incident.

You're still going on a tangent about history in Europe. How many massacres of school children have there been in Europe in the last 5, 10, 20 years? How many have there been in the USA?

How many children in America have died from a genocide in the past 20 years? The Balkans say hello.

In the mean time you do realize in America you are more likely to die falling out of your bed than in a random gun massacre, right?

[Roy H.]

Lets get back on topic, please.  This thread isn't about generalized gun control or world history.

[Eja117]

Also....just want to clarify something. Yes America has elites.   But typically elite families in America have made money at some point. Even Kim Kardashian has an actual job and generates actual revenue for herself.

The is no comparison between her and this guy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Percy,_12th_Duke_of_Northumberland

This is Ralph Percy. He is the Duke of Northumberland. He has no job. His job is....being born as the Duke of Northumberland and he was in the House of Lords till they ended their hereditary right to do so in 1999. He probably made a little extra money when they filmed Harry Potter at one of his 4 castles.  If you meet him I assume you are to address him as "My Lord" or possibly "My Lordship" or perhaps "Your majesty."  Why you would ever call an unemployed guy "My Lord" is beyond me, but they do stuff like that in Europe. He is worth approximately $100 million on any given day, but that's before you factor in that he gets to live in castles all his life and I assume his name is probably in the Panama papers somewhere.

If you bust into his house at 3am I would bet you might get shot by guns on premises. Well here in America everyone has the same right he has. It's called equality in the eyes of the law. In Europe not as much. Because in America you are your own king and elites don't get to tell you that you can't have what they have.

That is what I meant.

[Eja117]

Sorry. I saw that warning after I posted.