Author Topic: People keep targeting the wrong Philly big.  (Read 11396 times)

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Re: People keep targeting the wrong Philly big.
« Reply #45 on: May 27, 2016, 03:24:58 PM »

Offline BDeCosta26

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Was watching some video on him and he is also pretty amazing with his high post offense, including some crossover dribbles...a man that size doing that stuff is impressive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZihwmQ3PaC8

He could be a gravitational force that would put pressure on a defense.  Once he was doubled or tripled...he could pass it out to some open shooters.

I am intrigued.

Jahil is certainly talented. Pristine footwork, super-quick spins, soft touch. The thing about getting double teamed and kicking it out though... that's the big question mark with his offense. There was one clip in that video where he got double teamed like 3 times on one possession and he just kept going at the basket. Had multiple opportunities to find an open teammate, but he just never looked up. Ended up taking + missing a tough one. Only ended up on the highlight reel because he got the rebound and put it back... but most of the time that just turns into a miss or a turnover. That's the reason his highlight reel looks so much better than his advanced stats.

You are so right...he will have to get better at that.  I read somewhere that he was decent at that in college but regressed in Philly....shocker, I know.

The biggest part of this concern is that even of he becomes a good enough passer to find the open man on a double team, he still won't be able to run an entire offense through the high/low post the Gasol or Monroe does. If your only good offensive skill is low post scoring, that ability is key to allow guys like IT/Bradley/Crowder off-ball opportunities to score. The only way Okafor is putting up 20/10 is by constantly feeding him the ball in the post. If he can only find the easy pass occasionally, Doing that is gonna really take away from the effectiveness of Thomas and Co.

As I said in the OP, I probably wouldn't trade #3 for either of them, but Noel for 3 is hardly the kind of overpay that I've heard for Okafor (3, 16, Smart, Hunter). Okafor would require completely revamping our team identity. Noel only adds too it.

I think we could look for a trade-back scenario with any of the 5-8 teams. Let's say Denver offers us #7, Gallo and Harris for #3, #16 and #35 and Young, and then we use #7 and Hunter on Noel, would you be good with that? I mean, your really using #3 and a bunch of "middling" assets to bring in Noel, Gallo and Harris. Not a bad haul, and would immediately make us better

Re: People keep targeting the wrong Philly big.
« Reply #46 on: May 27, 2016, 03:29:50 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Was watching some video on him and he is also pretty amazing with his high post offense, including some crossover dribbles...a man that size doing that stuff is impressive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZihwmQ3PaC8

He could be a gravitational force that would put pressure on a defense.  Once he was doubled or tripled...he could pass it out to some open shooters.

I am intrigued.

Jahil is certainly talented. Pristine footwork, super-quick spins, soft touch. The thing about getting double teamed and kicking it out though... that's the big question mark with his offense. There was one clip in that video where he got double teamed like 3 times on one possession and he just kept going at the basket. Had multiple opportunities to find an open teammate, but he just never looked up. Ended up taking + missing a tough one. Only ended up on the highlight reel because he got the rebound and put it back... but most of the time that just turns into a miss or a turnover. That's the reason his highlight reel looks so much better than his advanced stats.

You are so right...he will have to get better at that.  I read somewhere that he was decent at that in college but regressed in Philly....shocker, I know.

The biggest part of this concern is that even of he becomes a good enough passer to find the open man on a double team, he still won't be able to run an entire offense through the high/low post the Gasol or Monroe does. If your only good offensive skill is low post scoring, that ability is key to allow guys like IT/Bradley/Crowder off-ball opportunities to score. The only way Okafor is putting up 20/10 is by constantly feeding him the ball in the post. If he can only find the easy pass occasionally, Doing that is gonna really take away from the effectiveness of Thomas and Co.

As I said in the OP, I probably wouldn't trade #3 for either of them, but Noel for 3 is hardly the kind of overpay that I've heard for Okafor (3, 16, Smart, Hunter). Okafor would require completely revamping our team identity. Noel only adds too it.

I think we could look for a trade-back scenario with any of the 5-8 teams. Let's say Denver offers us #7, Gallo and Harris for #3, #16 and #35 and Young, and then we use #7 and Hunter on Noel, would you be good with that? I mean, your really using #3 and a bunch of "middling" assets to bring in Noel, Gallo and Harris. Not a bad haul, and would immediately make us better
Okafor has an excellent mid range jump shot.  I've posted his shooting numbers on here numerous times because people keep saying he can't shoot.  It just isn't reality.  He is an excellent mid range shooter.  He has a varied offensive game.  He doesn't have 3 point range or even long 2 point range, but you don't need that to be successful (see Duncan on offense - note not comparing Okafor to Duncan overall as Duncan was 10x the defender Okafor is and also was a better rebounder). 
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Re: People keep targeting the wrong Philly big.
« Reply #47 on: May 27, 2016, 03:41:25 PM »

Offline The One

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No offense, but almost  any deal for Noel disgusts me. Especially when we include valuable assets. The guy doesn't move the needle whatsoever. He can't score. We need offense. And our defense is perfectly fine. 4th in the league with Isaiah,  sully,  and kelly playing big minutes.

Honestly, what good did our defense do us in the Atlanta series? Did it matter that much? We couldn't score, and we lost the series because of it. I'd much rather trade for Okafor than Noel.

We haven't watched the same Atlanta series.
Boston couldn't score because 3 of our best shooters where injured or haven't recovered.
Our offense were fine the entire season and should have been if we have stayed healthy.
Okafor is NOT Duncan and will never be, too many flaws.
I prefer Noel as well, more complete player. He can improve offensively.

We were one of the worst shooting teams in the NBA the entire season.  We tied for the 4th worst FG% (43.9%) and ranked 3rd worst outright in 3PT% (33.5%).   Yes, we had an overall decent, 10th-ranked Offensive Rating of 106.8 pts/100, but that disguises the fact that when Isaiah was off the floor, we had an ORtg of just 101 pts/100, which would be worse than the Lakers offense and better than only the Sixers.

So, no, our offense was not really fine the entire season.

Of course, I won't argue that reaching into the Sixers to find the offensive solution sounds very appealing.

I'm inclined at the moment to just keep the pick.

I think Okafor would help in this department.  When a decent pg, Ish Smith, was acquired, Okafor then shot 60%...that's excellent.

So I would think that IT with Okafor would be a dynamite combo.

Re: People keep targeting the wrong Philly big.
« Reply #48 on: May 27, 2016, 04:07:02 PM »

Offline alldaboston

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No offense, but almost  any deal for Noel disgusts me. Especially when we include valuable assets. The guy doesn't move the needle whatsoever. He can't score. We need offense. And our defense is perfectly fine. 4th in the league with Isaiah,  sully,  and kelly playing big minutes.

Honestly, what good did our defense do us in the Atlanta series? Did it matter that much? We couldn't score, and we lost the series because of it. I'd much rather trade for Okafor than Noel.

We haven't watched the same Atlanta series.
Boston couldn't score because 3 of our best shooters where injured or haven't recovered.
Our offense were fine the entire season and should have been if we have stayed healthy.
Okafor is NOT Duncan and will never be, too many flaws.
I prefer Noel as well, more complete player. He can improve offensively.

We were one of the worst shooting teams in the NBA the entire season.  We tied for the 4th worst FG% (43.9%) and ranked 3rd worst outright in 3PT% (33.5%).   Yes, we had an overall decent, 10th-ranked Offensive Rating of 106.8 pts/100, but that disguises the fact that when Isaiah was off the floor, we had an ORtg of just 101 pts/100, which would be worse than the Lakers offense and better than only the Sixers.

So, no, our offense was not really fine the entire season.

Of course, I won't argue that reaching into the Sixers to find the offensive solution sounds very appealing.

I'm inclined at the moment to just keep the pick.

I think Okafor would help in this department.  When a decent pg, Ish Smith, was acquired, Okafor then shot 60%...that's excellent.

So I would think that IT with Okafor would be a dynamite combo.

I hope so. In any case, if we are getting a big from Philly, it should be Okafor, NOT Noel.
I could very well see the Hawks... starting Taurean Prince at the 3, who is already better than Crowder, imo.

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Re: People keep targeting the wrong Philly big.
« Reply #49 on: May 27, 2016, 04:32:12 PM »

Offline 86MaxwellSmart

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Nerlens cannot shoot...he's awful...we have enough players who can't shoot.
Larry Bird was Greater than you think.

Re: People keep targeting the wrong Philly big.
« Reply #50 on: May 27, 2016, 04:37:20 PM »

Offline walker834

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No offense, but almost  any deal for Noel disgusts me. Especially when we include valuable assets. The guy doesn't move the needle whatsoever. He can't score. We need offense. And our defense is perfectly fine. 4th in the league with Isaiah,  sully,  and kelly playing big minutes.

Honestly, what good did our defense do us in the Atlanta series? Did it matter that much? We couldn't score, and we lost the series because of it. I'd much rather trade for Okafor than Noel.

These are great points. Noel is not worth the 3rd pick.  He is a guy we might be able to get cheap though and turn into a player.  I'd rather him than spending on a free agent like amir or noah.  I think the appeal of getting okafor is as a trade asset as much as a player to mold here.  Whether Philly sees it that way is something else though.  Ainge offered smart for him supposedly which i dont buy.  Similar players in similar situations.  I like Smart better personally but it's the whole big and small debate.

All 3 bigs Philly have are good players as trade assets and as players to mold. I can't knock Okafor too much.  He's a good player.    Same with Noel.  All have value in some regard.

Re: People keep targeting the wrong Philly big.
« Reply #51 on: May 27, 2016, 05:20:25 PM »

Offline The One

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Nerlens cannot shoot...he's awful...we have enough players who can't shoot.

Okafor is the youngest ever to average 15ppg on at least 50% shooting.

Does that cure what ails you?

Re: People keep targeting the wrong Philly big.
« Reply #52 on: May 27, 2016, 05:38:21 PM »

Offline Scintan

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Legit post offense is more difficult to get in today's game.  Okafor's contract is longer.  Seems to me like targeting him over Noel makes sense.


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Re: People keep targeting the wrong Philly big.
« Reply #53 on: May 27, 2016, 05:45:42 PM »

Offline 86MaxwellSmart

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Nerlens cannot shoot...he's awful...we have enough players who can't shoot.

Okafor is the youngest ever to average 15ppg on at least 50% shooting.

Does that cure what ails you?

Just want players who can put it in the hole.
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Re: People keep targeting the wrong Philly big.
« Reply #54 on: May 27, 2016, 06:20:48 PM »

Online The Oracle

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Okafor shot 100-284 35.2% outside 8 feet this year.  He shot 65-193 33.7% from what is defined as mid range.  He was 25-92 27.2% outside 15 feet.  So no Okafor does not have a good mid range game, those are not remotely good numbers at all.

Adding someone like Okafor would force you to play through him a ton and yes maybe he will score efficiently in the post, but it would be at the cost of everyone else's efficiency.  It just isn't efficient to run an offense dumping the ball into the post in today's NBA.  If he was elite in the post with great decision making and was a good defender then you have a different story but he is not and doesn't project to be. 

As for Noel, I am not sold on him being an improvement either but would certainly rather have him than Okafor.   

Re: People keep targeting the wrong Philly big.
« Reply #55 on: May 27, 2016, 06:58:00 PM »

Offline passesofftodj

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I like Noel way more than Okafor but I think we are missing the obvious.  Why not take Bender with the 3rd pick and go after Noel next year, even if you have to offer max? Patience is a virtue here.  The Celtics are not winning the championship next year so why bother ruining a good draft pick?

Re: People keep targeting the wrong Philly big.
« Reply #56 on: May 27, 2016, 08:44:20 PM »

Online The Oracle

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No offense, but almost  any deal for Noel disgusts me. Especially when we include valuable assets. The guy doesn't move the needle whatsoever. He can't score. We need offense. And our defense is perfectly fine. 4th in the league with Isaiah,  sully,  and kelly playing big minutes.

Honestly, what good did our defense do us in the Atlanta series? Did it matter that much? We couldn't score, and we lost the series because of it. I'd much rather trade for Okafor than Noel.

We haven't watched the same Atlanta series.
Boston couldn't score because 3 of our best shooters where injured or haven't recovered.
Our offense were fine the entire season and should have been if we have stayed healthy.
Okafor is NOT Duncan and will never be, too many flaws.
I prefer Noel as well, more complete player. He can improve offensively.

We were one of the worst shooting teams in the NBA the entire season.  We tied for the 4th worst FG% (43.9%) and ranked 3rd worst outright in 3PT% (33.5%).   Yes, we had an overall decent, 10th-ranked Offensive Rating of 106.8 pts/100, but that disguises the fact that when Isaiah was off the floor, we had an ORtg of just 101 pts/100, which would be worse than the Lakers offense and better than only the Sixers.

So, no, our offense was not really fine the entire season.

Of course, I won't argue that reaching into the Sixers to find the offensive solution sounds very appealing.

I'm inclined at the moment to just keep the pick.
Just a heads up, I don't believe those offensive numbers to be correct.  I assume those are from BBRef and I have found a ton of their stuff to be very inaccurate.  NBA.com has the Celtics as the 13th ranked off. rat. 103.9,  With I.T. off the floor off. rat. 98.7.

As for the C's offense last year it is amazing they posted the numbers they did with the amount of inefficient players eating minutes.  Sully, Turner, Smart, Lee and all the young guys were awful.  Replace some of that inefficiency with an actual good shooter or 2, plus improvement from Smart, increase K.O.'s volume and you got yourself a top 5 offense.  The C's struggled so much to score with I.T. off the floor because the bench was devoid of any efficient scoring other than K.O., the young guys were all miserable.

Re: People keep targeting the wrong Philly big.
« Reply #57 on: May 27, 2016, 09:17:54 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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No offense, but almost  any deal for Noel disgusts me. Especially when we include valuable assets. The guy doesn't move the needle whatsoever. He can't score. We need offense. And our defense is perfectly fine. 4th in the league with Isaiah,  sully,  and kelly playing big minutes.

Honestly, what good did our defense do us in the Atlanta series? Did it matter that much? We couldn't score, and we lost the series because of it. I'd much rather trade for Okafor than Noel.

We haven't watched the same Atlanta series.
Boston couldn't score because 3 of our best shooters where injured or haven't recovered.
Our offense were fine the entire season and should have been if we have stayed healthy.
Okafor is NOT Duncan and will never be, too many flaws.
I prefer Noel as well, more complete player. He can improve offensively.

We were one of the worst shooting teams in the NBA the entire season.  We tied for the 4th worst FG% (43.9%) and ranked 3rd worst outright in 3PT% (33.5%).   Yes, we had an overall decent, 10th-ranked Offensive Rating of 106.8 pts/100, but that disguises the fact that when Isaiah was off the floor, we had an ORtg of just 101 pts/100, which would be worse than the Lakers offense and better than only the Sixers.

So, no, our offense was not really fine the entire season.

Of course, I won't argue that reaching into the Sixers to find the offensive solution sounds very appealing.

I'm inclined at the moment to just keep the pick.
Just a heads up, I don't believe those offensive numbers to be correct.  I assume those are from BBRef and I have found a ton of their stuff to be very inaccurate.  NBA.com has the Celtics as the 13th ranked off. rat. 103.9,  With I.T. off the floor off. rat. 98.7.

As for the C's offense last year it is amazing they posted the numbers they did with the amount of inefficient players eating minutes.  Sully, Turner, Smart, Lee and all the young guys were awful.  Replace some of that inefficiency with an actual good shooter or 2, plus improvement from Smart, increase K.O.'s volume and you got yourself a top 5 offense.  The C's struggled so much to score with I.T. off the floor because the bench was devoid of any efficient scoring other than K.O., the young guys were all miserable.

Yeah, I quick-snagged the numbers from bb-ref because the page was open and yeah I'm not surprised they don't match up with nba.com.   BB-ref uses a funky calculation to 'estimate' the points-per-possession ratings which don't always exactly match the actual scoreboard points per possessions.

That doesn't really change the point, of course, that our offense was pretty awful.
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Re: People keep targeting the wrong Philly big.
« Reply #58 on: May 27, 2016, 09:33:53 PM »

Online The Oracle

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No offense, but almost  any deal for Noel disgusts me. Especially when we include valuable assets. The guy doesn't move the needle whatsoever. He can't score. We need offense. And our defense is perfectly fine. 4th in the league with Isaiah,  sully,  and kelly playing big minutes.

Honestly, what good did our defense do us in the Atlanta series? Did it matter that much? We couldn't score, and we lost the series because of it. I'd much rather trade for Okafor than Noel.

We haven't watched the same Atlanta series.
Boston couldn't score because 3 of our best shooters where injured or haven't recovered.
Our offense were fine the entire season and should have been if we have stayed healthy.
Okafor is NOT Duncan and will never be, too many flaws.
I prefer Noel as well, more complete player. He can improve offensively.

We were one of the worst shooting teams in the NBA the entire season.  We tied for the 4th worst FG% (43.9%) and ranked 3rd worst outright in 3PT% (33.5%).   Yes, we had an overall decent, 10th-ranked Offensive Rating of 106.8 pts/100, but that disguises the fact that when Isaiah was off the floor, we had an ORtg of just 101 pts/100, which would be worse than the Lakers offense and better than only the Sixers.

So, no, our offense was not really fine the entire season.

Of course, I won't argue that reaching into the Sixers to find the offensive solution sounds very appealing.

I'm inclined at the moment to just keep the pick.
Just a heads up, I don't believe those offensive numbers to be correct.  I assume those are from BBRef and I have found a ton of their stuff to be very inaccurate.  NBA.com has the Celtics as the 13th ranked off. rat. 103.9,  With I.T. off the floor off. rat. 98.7.

As for the C's offense last year it is amazing they posted the numbers they did with the amount of inefficient players eating minutes.  Sully, Turner, Smart, Lee and all the young guys were awful.  Replace some of that inefficiency with an actual good shooter or 2, plus improvement from Smart, increase K.O.'s volume and you got yourself a top 5 offense.  The C's struggled so much to score with I.T. off the floor because the bench was devoid of any efficient scoring other than K.O., the young guys were all miserable.

Yeah, I quick-snagged the numbers from bb-ref because the page was open and yeah I'm not surprised they don't match up with nba.com.   BB-ref uses a funky calculation to 'estimate' the points-per-possession ratings which don't always exactly match the actual scoreboard points per possessions.

That doesn't really change the point, of course, that our offense was pretty awful.

Nothing on BBRef. is really accurate, pretty much all of their advanced stuff is awful.  It's like the crap 82 games used to pump out and everyone was quoting.  I only pointed it out because it seems as though most of this forum uses them for a lot of their information and there are much better options. 

Re: People keep targeting the wrong Philly big.
« Reply #59 on: May 27, 2016, 09:54:31 PM »

Offline byennie

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I'd love to have Noel, but #3 is also a stiff price for 1 year of control. Maybe if we could nab a shooter and trade on future picks in the following fantasy:

#3, #31 for #5 (Hield) + future 1st (Minnesota)
#23, BRK17 for Noel
Smart, #16, MIN1st, MEM1st, BRK18 <=> Cousins

Then we'd be potentially trotting out:
Thomas / Hield / Crowder / Cousins / Noel

That's a lot of scoring with IT/Hield/Cousins, and a lot of defensive potential as well with Bradley coming off the bench and Crowder/Cousins/Noel all very good defenders. Hield hopefully above average with time defensively. KO, Jerebko, Rozier, Hunter, Mickey off the bench with decisions to make on Sully and Turner.

Noel gets big money next summer, but he'll be on the lower scale and Cousins underpaid.

And of course this is real sexy:

Thomas / Hield / DURANT / Cousins / Noel