If Ainge picks Dragon Bender

[clevelandceltic]

... then I'm guessing we'll be bending dragons.

Also, if anyone thinks Bender is anything like Gasol, they probably have no idea what type of player Gasol was at a similar age. The clip below shows a 19-year old Pau Gasol playing in the Spanish league finals (that would be the last series of one of the strongest basketball leagues in Europe):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZZETQoe-0U

Well, considering that Gasol was born July 1980 and that game took place just about a month prior to his 20th birthday, I don't think you can say they're at "similar age". Especially when Bender doesn't turn 19 until late in the year.

To put that in perspective, Bender won't be the age Gasol was in the video until we're playing pre-season games getting ready for the 17-18 season. Things change so much in terms of player development when players are so young that who's to say he doesn't surpass Gasol at the same age?

Really splitting hairs now.  Bender is 18.  Gasol was 19. 

These comps have me flummoxed.  What do you call a guy who shoots 3's, plays small and has no post game?  Pau Gasol!  What do you call a guy with poor lateral mobility who also has difficulty defending the post and shows limited defensive aptitude?  Andrei Kirilenko!

What planet am I on?

When Gasol was 18 his scout report/stats are really similar to Benders. Also he has trouble defending the post largely due to a lack of strength which could presumably be overcome via the weight room, but everything else you say about his defense seems to fly in the face of everything I've read about Bender

If you have time just watch the games.  There are probably 20-30 on YouTube, some of them linked in this thread.  His defense is squarely between "below average" and "trainwreck".  Physically, he edges toward average, mostly due to his length.  Developmentally, it is not pretty.  You can literally see him thinking and not in a good way.  Nothing comes naturally.  His lateral mobility and leaping are poor.  His base and core strength are very poor.  First step is poor.  Unable to cut off driving lanes.  Average recovery speed.  Not an impactful weak side shot blocker.  Poor rebounding and box out technique.  Not an intangibles guy. Basically, the exact opposite of Andrei Kirilenko.

Ladies and gentlemen, Brandon Ingram should no longer be considered a top prospect because these are the same problems he has.

To be fair, Brandon Ingram is being touted primarliy as an elite scorer whos primary weakness would be defense.

Bender is being touted as primarliy an elite defender.

Ingram is better than Bender in literally every way.  He can create his own shot.  He's quicker, better handle, better shooter, tougher (even tho they're both skinny),plays smarter, more fluid.  People are seriously underselling his defensive ability and potential as well.  His length and athleticism are disruptive.  He's a better defender right now than Bender.

Ok dude you win. No one knows anything except for you. I dont even know why you spend your time trying to explain things to us because we just clearly arent on your level. You know EVERYTHING. I see a skinny guy in Ingram who guys go right past but he recovers due to length and I say in time he could get better. You see him do the exact same thing and say he is going to be great. Bender does the exact same thing and you say he is borderline awful. Why dont we just move on to another player and you can show us how much smarter you are than the rest in the room.

As noted above, Ingram could easily be a defensive liability at the next level and still be worthy of the number 2 pick due to his tremendous scoring potential, if Bender is a defensive liability at the next level it will, barring something incredible, mean he is a bust.

You are taking Benders "Strengths" page if you will and comparing it to Ingrams "Weaknesses" page.

Look bottom line is everyone has strengths and weaknesses and you cant pick and choose what you want to pay attention to with one guy and not pay attention to with others.

It's obviously OK to discount Poeltl's 3 point shooting, Biyombo's assist numbers, Ryan Anderson's shot blocking, and so on.  If you're deciding between a Ferrari and a Lambo, you don't need to compare gas mileage.  It's irrelevant.

What do any of those things have to do with what we are talking about? Does Ingram have to do more than shoot? Yes. Does he have to defend? Yes. Does he have to rebound? Yes but not as much as Bender. If all Ingram ends up being is a shooter then that's a waste of a pick correct? So why not talk about other aspects of his game?

You said you can't pick and choose which strengths to pay attention to and which to discount.  Yes you can.  You have to.

Im not talking about comparing a centers rebounding to a pg. Im talking about comparing lateral quickness, finishing ability, etc. Ok let me ask you this, does the fact that Ingram struggles to score at the rim and is not explosive at the rim bother you?

[PickNRoll]

... then I'm guessing we'll be bending dragons.

Also, if anyone thinks Bender is anything like Gasol, they probably have no idea what type of player Gasol was at a similar age. The clip below shows a 19-year old Pau Gasol playing in the Spanish league finals (that would be the last series of one of the strongest basketball leagues in Europe):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZZETQoe-0U

Well, considering that Gasol was born July 1980 and that game took place just about a month prior to his 20th birthday, I don't think you can say they're at "similar age". Especially when Bender doesn't turn 19 until late in the year.

To put that in perspective, Bender won't be the age Gasol was in the video until we're playing pre-season games getting ready for the 17-18 season. Things change so much in terms of player development when players are so young that who's to say he doesn't surpass Gasol at the same age?

Really splitting hairs now.  Bender is 18.  Gasol was 19. 

These comps have me flummoxed.  What do you call a guy who shoots 3's, plays small and has no post game?  Pau Gasol!  What do you call a guy with poor lateral mobility who also has difficulty defending the post and shows limited defensive aptitude?  Andrei Kirilenko!

What planet am I on?

When Gasol was 18 his scout report/stats are really similar to Benders. Also he has trouble defending the post largely due to a lack of strength which could presumably be overcome via the weight room, but everything else you say about his defense seems to fly in the face of everything I've read about Bender

If you have time just watch the games.  There are probably 20-30 on YouTube, some of them linked in this thread.  His defense is squarely between "below average" and "trainwreck".  Physically, he edges toward average, mostly due to his length.  Developmentally, it is not pretty.  You can literally see him thinking and not in a good way.  Nothing comes naturally.  His lateral mobility and leaping are poor.  His base and core strength are very poor.  First step is poor.  Unable to cut off driving lanes.  Average recovery speed.  Not an impactful weak side shot blocker.  Poor rebounding and box out technique.  Not an intangibles guy. Basically, the exact opposite of Andrei Kirilenko.

Ladies and gentlemen, Brandon Ingram should no longer be considered a top prospect because these are the same problems he has.

To be fair, Brandon Ingram is being touted primarliy as an elite scorer whos primary weakness would be defense.

Bender is being touted as primarliy an elite defender.

Ingram is better than Bender in literally every way.  He can create his own shot.  He's quicker, better handle, better shooter, tougher (even tho they're both skinny),plays smarter, more fluid.  People are seriously underselling his defensive ability and potential as well.  His length and athleticism are disruptive.  He's a better defender right now than Bender.

Ok dude you win. No one knows anything except for you. I dont even know why you spend your time trying to explain things to us because we just clearly arent on your level. You know EVERYTHING. I see a skinny guy in Ingram who guys go right past but he recovers due to length and I say in time he could get better. You see him do the exact same thing and say he is going to be great. Bender does the exact same thing and you say he is borderline awful. Why dont we just move on to another player and you can show us how much smarter you are than the rest in the room.

As noted above, Ingram could easily be a defensive liability at the next level and still be worthy of the number 2 pick due to his tremendous scoring potential, if Bender is a defensive liability at the next level it will, barring something incredible, mean he is a bust.

You are taking Benders "Strengths" page if you will and comparing it to Ingrams "Weaknesses" page.

Look bottom line is everyone has strengths and weaknesses and you cant pick and choose what you want to pay attention to with one guy and not pay attention to with others.

It's obviously OK to discount Poeltl's 3 point shooting, Biyombo's assist numbers, Ryan Anderson's shot blocking, and so on.  If you're deciding between a Ferrari and a Lambo, you don't need to compare gas mileage.  It's irrelevant.

What do any of those things have to do with what we are talking about? Does Ingram have to do more than shoot? Yes. Does he have to defend? Yes. Does he have to rebound? Yes but not as much as Bender. If all Ingram ends up being is a shooter then that's a waste of a pick correct? So why not talk about other aspects of his game?

You said you can't pick and choose which strengths to pay attention to and which to discount.  Yes you can.  You have to.

Im not talking about comparing a centers rebounding to a pg. Im talking about comparing lateral quickness, finishing ability, etc. Ok let me ask you this, does the fact that Ingram struggles to score at the rim and is not explosive at the rim bother you?

Not much.

http://screencast.com/t/zNJFwDXfuhfc

[clevelandceltic]

... then I'm guessing we'll be bending dragons.

Also, if anyone thinks Bender is anything like Gasol, they probably have no idea what type of player Gasol was at a similar age. The clip below shows a 19-year old Pau Gasol playing in the Spanish league finals (that would be the last series of one of the strongest basketball leagues in Europe):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZZETQoe-0U

Well, considering that Gasol was born July 1980 and that game took place just about a month prior to his 20th birthday, I don't think you can say they're at "similar age". Especially when Bender doesn't turn 19 until late in the year.

To put that in perspective, Bender won't be the age Gasol was in the video until we're playing pre-season games getting ready for the 17-18 season. Things change so much in terms of player development when players are so young that who's to say he doesn't surpass Gasol at the same age?

Really splitting hairs now.  Bender is 18.  Gasol was 19. 

These comps have me flummoxed.  What do you call a guy who shoots 3's, plays small and has no post game?  Pau Gasol!  What do you call a guy with poor lateral mobility who also has difficulty defending the post and shows limited defensive aptitude?  Andrei Kirilenko!

What planet am I on?

When Gasol was 18 his scout report/stats are really similar to Benders. Also he has trouble defending the post largely due to a lack of strength which could presumably be overcome via the weight room, but everything else you say about his defense seems to fly in the face of everything I've read about Bender

If you have time just watch the games.  There are probably 20-30 on YouTube, some of them linked in this thread.  His defense is squarely between "below average" and "trainwreck".  Physically, he edges toward average, mostly due to his length.  Developmentally, it is not pretty.  You can literally see him thinking and not in a good way.  Nothing comes naturally.  His lateral mobility and leaping are poor.  His base and core strength are very poor.  First step is poor.  Unable to cut off driving lanes.  Average recovery speed.  Not an impactful weak side shot blocker.  Poor rebounding and box out technique.  Not an intangibles guy. Basically, the exact opposite of Andrei Kirilenko.

Ladies and gentlemen, Brandon Ingram should no longer be considered a top prospect because these are the same problems he has.

To be fair, Brandon Ingram is being touted primarliy as an elite scorer whos primary weakness would be defense.

Bender is being touted as primarliy an elite defender.

Ingram is better than Bender in literally every way.  He can create his own shot.  He's quicker, better handle, better shooter, tougher (even tho they're both skinny),plays smarter, more fluid.  People are seriously underselling his defensive ability and potential as well.  His length and athleticism are disruptive.  He's a better defender right now than Bender.

Ok dude you win. No one knows anything except for you. I dont even know why you spend your time trying to explain things to us because we just clearly arent on your level. You know EVERYTHING. I see a skinny guy in Ingram who guys go right past but he recovers due to length and I say in time he could get better. You see him do the exact same thing and say he is going to be great. Bender does the exact same thing and you say he is borderline awful. Why dont we just move on to another player and you can show us how much smarter you are than the rest in the room.

As noted above, Ingram could easily be a defensive liability at the next level and still be worthy of the number 2 pick due to his tremendous scoring potential, if Bender is a defensive liability at the next level it will, barring something incredible, mean he is a bust.

You are taking Benders "Strengths" page if you will and comparing it to Ingrams "Weaknesses" page.

Look bottom line is everyone has strengths and weaknesses and you cant pick and choose what you want to pay attention to with one guy and not pay attention to with others.

It's obviously OK to discount Poeltl's 3 point shooting, Biyombo's assist numbers, Ryan Anderson's shot blocking, and so on.  If you're deciding between a Ferrari and a Lambo, you don't need to compare gas mileage.  It's irrelevant.

What do any of those things have to do with what we are talking about? Does Ingram have to do more than shoot? Yes. Does he have to defend? Yes. Does he have to rebound? Yes but not as much as Bender. If all Ingram ends up being is a shooter then that's a waste of a pick correct? So why not talk about other aspects of his game?

You said you can't pick and choose which strengths to pay attention to and which to discount.  Yes you can.  You have to.

Im not talking about comparing a centers rebounding to a pg. Im talking about comparing lateral quickness, finishing ability, etc. Ok let me ask you this, does the fact that Ingram struggles to score at the rim and is not explosive at the rim bother you?

Not much.

http://screencast.com/t/zNJFwDXfuhfc

Ok I officially quit. So now you want to use a non relatable scouting report to say justify a position but then disregard that same services take on other players?

Btw, Im not sure what that screenshot has to do with my question but ok.

[vjcsmoke]

If this ends up being our guy, how do you feel??

[BlastFromThePast]

If this ends up being our guy, how do you feel??

[Quetzalcoatl]

5.) He is a legitimate 7'1" at 18 years old and may even grow taller.  He also has elite length which is a very good predictor of future success.  Even with that, he seems to be growing into his body pretty well, although he is a little slow laterally.

This is hogwash.

Huh so I just went down quite the rabbit hole and I now agree that wingspan shouldn't be too heavily relied on, but it's still kind of inconclusive. 

So basically, there are a ton of articles out there that say that wingspan is a pretty good indicator of whether or not someone will be good in the NBA.  For example: http://www.si.com/vault/2012/11/05/106252287/the-case-for--wingspan

It basically says that someone with a bigger wingspan will have an advantage over players that are taller, but with smaller wingspans.  It also says that players with longer wingspans on average have better NBA careers.

HOWEVER, I found this really interesting article here: http://www.si.com/edge/2016/05/11/nba-draft-combine-results-measurements-vertical-jump-value

Which says:

So what numbers can we use to predict NBA success? A 2014 study conducted by psychologists Jerad Moxley and Tyler Towne tried to answer that question by reviewing the performances of over 300 NBA Combine invitees from 2001-06. The researchers were interested in whether performance in the NBA is predicted by physical makeup and athleticism while factoring in prior basketball performance. To test the theory that physical size and athleticism are markers of yet to be realized potential, the researchers investigated a number of variables, including age, college performance, player position, college quality, height, agility, no-step vertical leap, arm span, and weight.

From there the researchers tried to predict success in the first three years of NBA performance, a critical period in a young player’s career.  The results? Even though physical size and athleticism predicted draft order, the only variables that predicted NBA success were college quality, college performance, and youth.

The study concludes, “To clarify, our argument is that these physical characteristics have already contributed to achievement and training opportunities by the time the player reaches the NBA and thus does not differentiate player class at the professional level.”

The bottom line: if possessing those skills and physical size made a player effective in college, then he was more likely to be productive at the next level. Simply possessing great athleticism—the idea of "upside"—without a prior record of performance wasn’t good enough.

So, it says that wingspan isn't a great predictor, but specifically because the advantages were already implied in their pre-NBA numbers, so they will just have the same advantage again in their NBA career.  It also says that the three best indicators for NBA success are pre-NBA production (not great), strength of their club or college team (Maccabi would almost certainly beat every other team that someone being drafted this year is on) and youth (Bender is the youngest player in the draft).  So he excels at two of those indicators if you can even call them that.

[mctyson]

Couldn't he easily replace Olynyk?

[Celtics4ever]

If this ends up being our guy, how do you feel??

I think Ainge will be unemployed in a few years after taking Darko II.

[CelticsJG]

I like Bender. Very safe pick because of his skill set.

[Denis998]

Him and KO will then be deemed the new Splash Bros. The team will become perennial champions, rivaling that of Russell's Celtics. All Hail Bender, The Greatest Player That Ever Lived.

[TwinTower14]

Fwiw Jordan Farmer is a big fan. I know he is not a scout but he knows what it takes to be a nba player.

[PhoSita]

If this ends up being our guy, how do you feel??

I think it'd be met with much gnashing of teeth and pulling of hair but in a year or two he could be an absolute fan favorite that makes the Garden go nuts like nobody else.

I would be excited to see a Thomas smart crowder Mickey Bender lineup next season or the season after.

[Celtics18]

His buyout is, I believe, 1 million.  It's not much.  Should not at all be an impediment to him coming over right away.  That's my understanding from what I've read.

From the scouting and analysis I've read about his game, you should picture somebody kind of like Kirilenko on defense and kind of like a rich man's Jonas Jerebko on offense ("Good" Jonas anyway, like we saw in the playoffs).

Wow!! Do you remember what prime Kirilenko was like on defense?  If this kid is like Kirilenko defensively, sign me up.

This is precisely why he's projected to go top 3.

Hopefully his career is longer than AK. Andrei declined early and fast.

I've seen the video clips, I've read about the sub thirty inch vertical.  One thing I'm almost 100% certain Dragan Bender is not is an athletic freak like Andrei Kirilenko.

Well he may never have a nine percent block rate and a three percent steal rate but I think the potential is there for a similar defensive role and impact given that he's taller and could play four and five.

Well, if we pick him, I'm definitely rooting for that to happen.  I'm not counting on him having a Kirilenkoesque defense impact, though.  Sure, he's tall and long, but Kirilenko was one of a kind.  Honestly, it's an insult to AK47.

[PhoSita]

It's just a comp based on style and body type, not a one to one prediction. Just meant to give a sense of what kind of role he might play in the NBA.

[Ilikesports17]

... then I'm guessing we'll be bending dragons.

Also, if anyone thinks Bender is anything like Gasol, they probably have no idea what type of player Gasol was at a similar age. The clip below shows a 19-year old Pau Gasol playing in the Spanish league finals (that would be the last series of one of the strongest basketball leagues in Europe):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZZETQoe-0U

Well, considering that Gasol was born July 1980 and that game took place just about a month prior to his 20th birthday, I don't think you can say they're at "similar age". Especially when Bender doesn't turn 19 until late in the year.

To put that in perspective, Bender won't be the age Gasol was in the video until we're playing pre-season games getting ready for the 17-18 season. Things change so much in terms of player development when players are so young that who's to say he doesn't surpass Gasol at the same age?

Really splitting hairs now.  Bender is 18.  Gasol was 19. 

These comps have me flummoxed.  What do you call a guy who shoots 3's, plays small and has no post game?  Pau Gasol!  What do you call a guy with poor lateral mobility who also has difficulty defending the post and shows limited defensive aptitude?  Andrei Kirilenko!

What planet am I on?

When Gasol was 18 his scout report/stats are really similar to Benders. Also he has trouble defending the post largely due to a lack of strength which could presumably be overcome via the weight room, but everything else you say about his defense seems to fly in the face of everything I've read about Bender

If you have time just watch the games.  There are probably 20-30 on YouTube, some of them linked in this thread.  His defense is squarely between "below average" and "trainwreck".  Physically, he edges toward average, mostly due to his length.  Developmentally, it is not pretty.  You can literally see him thinking and not in a good way.  Nothing comes naturally.  His lateral mobility and leaping are poor.  His base and core strength are very poor.  First step is poor.  Unable to cut off driving lanes.  Average recovery speed.  Not an impactful weak side shot blocker.  Poor rebounding and box out technique.  Not an intangibles guy. Basically, the exact opposite of Andrei Kirilenko.

Ladies and gentlemen, Brandon Ingram should no longer be considered a top prospect because these are the same problems he has.

To be fair, Brandon Ingram is being touted primarliy as an elite scorer whos primary weakness would be defense.

Bender is being touted as primarliy an elite defender.

Ingram is better than Bender in literally every way.  He can create his own shot.  He's quicker, better handle, better shooter, tougher (even tho they're both skinny),plays smarter, more fluid.  People are seriously underselling his defensive ability and potential as well.  His length and athleticism are disruptive.  He's a better defender right now than Bender.

Ok dude you win. No one knows anything except for you. I dont even know why you spend your time trying to explain things to us because we just clearly arent on your level. You know EVERYTHING. I see a skinny guy in Ingram who guys go right past but he recovers due to length and I say in time he could get better. You see him do the exact same thing and say he is going to be great. Bender does the exact same thing and you say he is borderline awful. Why dont we just move on to another player and you can show us how much smarter you are than the rest in the room.

As noted above, Ingram could easily be a defensive liability at the next level and still be worthy of the number 2 pick due to his tremendous scoring potential, if Bender is a defensive liability at the next level it will, barring something incredible, mean he is a bust.

You are taking Benders "Strengths" page if you will and comparing it to Ingrams "Weaknesses" page.

No it doesnt. That's an assumption. You are basically saying his O wont get any better at any point of his career and you know this for a fact.

And if you are talking about Ingram if he doesnt get bigger all he is is a shooter. PERIOD. He doesnt finish strong at the rim. He doesnt explode at all at the rim.

Look bottom line is everyone has strengths and weaknesses and you cant pick and choose what you want to pay attention to with one guy and not pay attention to with others.

The difference between Ingram and Bender is that we know Ingram has one elite skill in shooting. We dont know that about Bender. For that reason I would take Ingram over Bender but lets no act like Ingram currently offers anything more than that.

Right now, as prospects, Ingram is touted as an elite offensive player with potential to be an elite scorer, while
bender is primarily lauded for his defense. Correct?

This if you believe that they have the same struggles on defense that is far more concerning for the player whose calling card is defense than the one who's calling card is his scoring ability