Author Topic: If Ainge picks Dragon Bender  (Read 29129 times)

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Re: If Ainge picks Dragon Bender
« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2016, 12:59:10 PM »

Offline PickNRoll

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... then I'm guessing we'll be bending dragons.

Also, if anyone thinks Bender is anything like Gasol, they probably have no idea what type of player Gasol was at a similar age. The clip below shows a 19-year old Pau Gasol playing in the Spanish league finals (that would be the last series of one of the strongest basketball leagues in Europe):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZZETQoe-0U

Well, considering that Gasol was born July 1980 and that game took place just about a month prior to his 20th birthday, I don't think you can say they're at "similar age". Especially when Bender doesn't turn 19 until late in the year.

To put that in perspective, Bender won't be the age Gasol was in the video until we're playing pre-season games getting ready for the 17-18 season. Things change so much in terms of player development when players are so young that who's to say he doesn't surpass Gasol at the same age?
Really splitting hairs now.  Bender is 18.  Gasol was 19. 

These comps have me flummoxed.  What do you call a guy who shoots 3's, plays small and has no post game?  Pau Gasol!  What do you call a guy with poor lateral mobility who also has difficulty defending the post and shows limited defensive aptitude?  Andrei Kirilenko!

What planet am I on?

 

Re: If Ainge picks Dragon Bender
« Reply #46 on: May 26, 2016, 01:07:56 PM »

Offline CFAN38

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Of the comparisons I've seen in this thread, a Kirilenko-like player seems most accurate to me.  Everything I've read and seen suggests that he's a jack-of-all-trades type, not an elite scorer like Dirk or Love or even Pau.  (I personally don't see the Pau comparison, in terms of game.  Bender seems a lot more perimeter-oriented.)


I was only making a Pau Gasol / Bender comp with there physical builds

Pau at 21

https://www.google.com/search?q=young+Pau+Gasol&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiJy8i2nPjMAhVJbj4KHQYxCA8Q_AUIBygB&biw=1680&bih=953#tbm=isch&q=rookie+Pau+Gasol&imgrc=wYVJWZ2dlz-DfM%3A

Bender at 18

https://www.google.com/search?q=dragan+bender&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwirwvTVnPjMAhWMdj4KHWXBCyIQ_AUICSgD&biw=1680&bih=953#tbm=isch&q=dragan+bender+maccabi&imgrc=NfsVdswWkQ18lM%3A
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Re: If Ainge picks Dragon Bender
« Reply #47 on: May 26, 2016, 01:11:07 PM »

Offline PaulP34

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I just hope Bender becomes a great player or we are gonna waste a #3 on a project that doesn't pan out. But if the kid does pan out we got on hell of a big in 3 years.

Re: If Ainge picks Dragon Bender
« Reply #48 on: May 26, 2016, 01:15:47 PM »

Online celts55

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I really know nothing about him except what I've read. I guess I'm going to assume the the Celtics will have a chance to work out and meet him a few times, as well as other players the are considering at that point. If Danny and Brad feel he's the guy, I will defer to their opinion, as mine is based on nothing

Re: If Ainge picks Dragon Bender
« Reply #49 on: May 26, 2016, 01:17:58 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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... then I'm guessing we'll be bending dragons.

Also, if anyone thinks Bender is anything like Gasol, they probably have no idea what type of player Gasol was at a similar age. The clip below shows a 19-year old Pau Gasol playing in the Spanish league finals (that would be the last series of one of the strongest basketball leagues in Europe):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZZETQoe-0U

Well, considering that Gasol was born July 1980 and that game took place just about a month prior to his 20th birthday, I don't think you can say they're at "similar age". Especially when Bender doesn't turn 19 until late in the year.

To put that in perspective, Bender won't be the age Gasol was in the video until we're playing pre-season games getting ready for the 17-18 season. Things change so much in terms of player development when players are so young that who's to say he doesn't surpass Gasol at the same age?
Really splitting hairs now.  Bender is 18.  Gasol was 19. 

Not really, no. Gasol was about to turn 20, so he's about 1 1/2 years older in that video than Bender currently is. The difference in development is huge for a player at that age. For example, Dirk his rookie season (age 20) was really struggling (8.2 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 40% FG, 20 mpg). In fact, it was so bad that in interview he said he would constantly tell his parents that he felt as though he made a mistake coming into the NBA so early. The next season (age 21) Dirk averaged 17.5 ppg and 6.5 rpg.

Re: If Ainge picks Dragon Bender
« Reply #50 on: May 26, 2016, 01:18:28 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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... then I'm guessing we'll be bending dragons.

Also, if anyone thinks Bender is anything like Gasol, they probably have no idea what type of player Gasol was at a similar age. The clip below shows a 19-year old Pau Gasol playing in the Spanish league finals (that would be the last series of one of the strongest basketball leagues in Europe):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZZETQoe-0U

Well, considering that Gasol was born July 1980 and that game took place just about a month prior to his 20th birthday, I don't think you can say they're at "similar age". Especially when Bender doesn't turn 19 until late in the year.

To put that in perspective, Bender won't be the age Gasol was in the video until we're playing pre-season games getting ready for the 17-18 season. Things change so much in terms of player development when players are so young that who's to say he doesn't surpass Gasol at the same age?
Really splitting hairs now.  Bender is 18.  Gasol was 19. 

These comps have me flummoxed.  What do you call a guy who shoots 3's, plays small and has no post game?  Pau Gasol!  What do you call a guy with poor lateral mobility who also has difficulty defending the post and shows limited defensive aptitude?  Andrei Kirilenko!

What planet am I on?
When Gasol was 18 his scout report/stats are really similar to Benders. Also he has trouble defending the post largely due to a lack of strength which could presumably be overcome via the weight room, but everything else you say about his defense seems to fly in the face of everything I've read about Bender
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Re: If Ainge picks Dragon Bender
« Reply #51 on: May 26, 2016, 01:21:01 PM »

Offline PaulP34

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Of the comparisons I've seen in this thread, a Kirilenko-like player seems most accurate to me.  Everything I've read and seen suggests that he's a jack-of-all-trades type, not an elite scorer like Dirk or Love or even Pau.  (I personally don't see the Pau comparison, in terms of game.  Bender seems a lot more perimeter-oriented.)


I was only making a Pau Gasol / Bender comp with there physical builds

Pau at 21

https://www.google.com/search?q=young+Pau+Gasol&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiJy8i2nPjMAhVJbj4KHQYxCA8Q_AUIBygB&biw=1680&bih=953#tbm=isch&q=rookie+Pau+Gasol&imgrc=wYVJWZ2dlz-DfM%3A

Bender at 18

https://www.google.com/search?q=dragan+bender&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwirwvTVnPjMAhWMdj4KHWXBCyIQ_AUICSgD&biw=1680&bih=953#tbm=isch&q=dragan+bender+maccabi&imgrc=NfsVdswWkQ18lM%3A

I gotta say, the difference between Bender at 18 looks like he gained a lot of muscle n weight compared to when he was 16. I'm slowly warming up to this kid I just hope he turns out to be a big force for us. We have 2 more drafts to build around him so im staying hopeful.

Re: If Ainge picks Dragon Bender
« Reply #52 on: May 26, 2016, 01:22:41 PM »

Offline vjcsmoke

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I think if we could guarantee that Bender was as good as Porzingis, nobody would have any problem spending the #3 pick on him.  But there are no guarantees in drafting.

As a matter of fact several scouts have said that Bender is more advanced than Porzingis at the same age.  So take that for what you will.

How do you find a 7’1″ kid that’s 17 years old, that is skilled with such a feel for the game like Dragan’s? It doesn’t exist. Compare where Dragan is now to where [New York Knicks No. 4 pick] Kristaps Porzingis was at the same age, and there’s no comparison. Bender is way ahead in terms of how polished he is, creativity, versatility and his body. I was watching some of his games from preseason in France and Israel, and he is huge.

Source:
http://www.cheatsheet.com/sports/why-this-17-year-old-is-the-player-to-watch-for-the-2016-nba-draft.html/?a=viewall

Re: If Ainge picks Dragon Bender
« Reply #53 on: May 26, 2016, 01:25:55 PM »

Offline ahonui06

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I think if we could guarantee that Bender was as good as Porzingis, nobody would have any problem spending the #3 pick on him.  But there are no guarantees in drafting.

As a matter of fact several scouts have said that Bender is more advanced than Porzingis at the same age.  So take that for what you will.

How do you find a 7’1″ kid that’s 17 years old, that is skilled with such a feel for the game like Dragan’s? It doesn’t exist. Compare where Dragan is now to where [New York Knicks No. 4 pick] Kristaps Porzingis was at the same age, and there’s no comparison. Bender is way ahead in terms of how polished he is, creativity, versatility and his body. I was watching some of his games from preseason in France and Israel, and he is huge.

Source:
http://www.cheatsheet.com/sports/why-this-17-year-old-is-the-player-to-watch-for-the-2016-nba-draft.html/?a=viewall

The draft is always a crapshoot, but I trust the scouts. I'd have no problem with Bender.

Re: If Ainge picks Dragon Bender
« Reply #54 on: May 26, 2016, 01:27:18 PM »

Offline clevelandceltic

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... then I'm guessing we'll be bending dragons.

Also, if anyone thinks Bender is anything like Gasol, they probably have no idea what type of player Gasol was at a similar age. The clip below shows a 19-year old Pau Gasol playing in the Spanish league finals (that would be the last series of one of the strongest basketball leagues in Europe):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZZETQoe-0U

Well, considering that Gasol was born July 1980 and that game took place just about a month prior to his 20th birthday, I don't think you can say they're at "similar age". Especially when Bender doesn't turn 19 until late in the year.

To put that in perspective, Bender won't be the age Gasol was in the video until we're playing pre-season games getting ready for the 17-18 season. Things change so much in terms of player development when players are so young that who's to say he doesn't surpass Gasol at the same age?
Really splitting hairs now.  Bender is 18.  Gasol was 19. 

These comps have me flummoxed.  What do you call a guy who shoots 3's, plays small and has no post game?  Pau Gasol!  What do you call a guy with poor lateral mobility who also has difficulty defending the post and shows limited defensive aptitude?  Andrei Kirilenko!

What planet am I on?

It is not splitting hairs. COME ON MAN. Your hate is so thick its unbelievable. Bender was 17 when this season started and is a little less than 6 months away from his 19th birthday. At the time of this game, Pau would have been a little more than 2 months short of his 20th birthday.

We are talking a year and a half. Come on. What your saying makes no sense. Lets go back in time and see what your guy Buddy looked like a year and a half ago and you tell me where you draft him based on that skill set alone in the 2014 draft?


Re: If Ainge picks Dragon Bender
« Reply #55 on: May 26, 2016, 01:40:01 PM »

Offline PickNRoll

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... then I'm guessing we'll be bending dragons.

Also, if anyone thinks Bender is anything like Gasol, they probably have no idea what type of player Gasol was at a similar age. The clip below shows a 19-year old Pau Gasol playing in the Spanish league finals (that would be the last series of one of the strongest basketball leagues in Europe):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZZETQoe-0U

Well, considering that Gasol was born July 1980 and that game took place just about a month prior to his 20th birthday, I don't think you can say they're at "similar age". Especially when Bender doesn't turn 19 until late in the year.

To put that in perspective, Bender won't be the age Gasol was in the video until we're playing pre-season games getting ready for the 17-18 season. Things change so much in terms of player development when players are so young that who's to say he doesn't surpass Gasol at the same age?
Really splitting hairs now.  Bender is 18.  Gasol was 19. 

These comps have me flummoxed.  What do you call a guy who shoots 3's, plays small and has no post game?  Pau Gasol!  What do you call a guy with poor lateral mobility who also has difficulty defending the post and shows limited defensive aptitude?  Andrei Kirilenko!

What planet am I on?
When Gasol was 18 his scout report/stats are really similar to Benders. Also he has trouble defending the post largely due to a lack of strength which could presumably be overcome via the weight room, but everything else you say about his defense seems to fly in the face of everything I've read about Bender
If you have time just watch the games.  There are probably 20-30 on YouTube, some of them linked in this thread.  His defense is squarely between "below average" and "trainwreck".  Physically, he edges toward average, mostly due to his length.  Developmentally, it is not pretty.  You can literally see him thinking and not in a good way.  Nothing comes naturally.  His lateral mobility and leaping are poor.  His base and core strength are very poor.  First step is poor.  Unable to cut off driving lanes.  Average recovery speed.  Not an impactful weak side shot blocker.  Poor rebounding and box out technique.  Not an intangibles guy. Basically, the exact opposite of Andrei Kirilenko. 

Re: If Ainge picks Dragon Bender
« Reply #56 on: May 26, 2016, 01:44:42 PM »

Offline vjcsmoke

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If you have time just watch the games.  There are probably 20-30 on YouTube, some of them linked in this thread.  His defense is squarely between "below average" and "trainwreck".  Physically, he edges toward average, mostly due to his length.  Developmentally, it is not pretty.  You can literally see him thinking and not in a good way.  Nothing comes naturally.  His lateral mobility and leaping are poor.  His base and core strength are very poor.  First step is poor.  Unable to cut off driving lanes.  Average recovery speed.  Not an impactful weak side shot blocker.  Poor rebounding and box out technique.  Not an intangibles guy. Basically, the exact opposite of Andrei Kirilenko.

Really?  Your assessment of Bender's defensive potential runs contrary to that of professional scouts:

Part of what makes Bender such a high-level prospect is that in addition to his high offensive skill level, he is a versatile and impactful player on the defensive end. Like on offense, he’s not great at one thing in particular but he’s an above average interior and perimeter defender for his size.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMxs6mhWSIE&feature=youtu.be

Of course the scout notes that Bender needs to improve his strength to become an effective post defender but he continues on to say:

Bender has the lateral quicks to be a devastating switch all screens level of defender, but refinement in his defensive fundamentals is necessary for him to get there. Either way, he should be a good defender in pick and roll situations with the ability to hedge and recover well or switch if his teammate needs it. Bender’s combination of small forward type mobility as a 7-footer with shot blocking instincts makes him an enticing defensive prospect.

Source:
http://upsidemotor.com/2015/08/17/dragan-bender-kristaps-porzingis-fiba-scouting-report-crotia-2016-nba-draft/

Re: If Ainge picks Dragon Bender
« Reply #57 on: May 26, 2016, 01:53:36 PM »

Offline PickNRoll

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If you have time just watch the games.  There are probably 20-30 on YouTube, some of them linked in this thread.  His defense is squarely between "below average" and "trainwreck".  Physically, he edges toward average, mostly due to his length.  Developmentally, it is not pretty.  You can literally see him thinking and not in a good way.  Nothing comes naturally.  His lateral mobility and leaping are poor.  His base and core strength are very poor.  First step is poor.  Unable to cut off driving lanes.  Average recovery speed.  Not an impactful weak side shot blocker.  Poor rebounding and box out technique.  Not an intangibles guy. Basically, the exact opposite of Andrei Kirilenko.

Really?  Your assessment of Bender's defensive potential runs contrary to that of professional scouts:

Part of what makes Bender such a high-level prospect is that in addition to his high offensive skill level, he is a versatile and impactful player on the defensive end. Like on offense, he’s not great at one thing in particular but he’s an above average interior and perimeter defender for his size.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMxs6mhWSIE&feature=youtu.be

Of course the scout notes that Bender needs to improve his strength to become an effective post defender but he continues on to say:

Bender has the lateral quicks to be a devastating switch all screens level of defender, but refinement in his defensive fundamentals is necessary for him to get there. Either way, he should be a good defender in pick and roll situations with the ability to hedge and recover well or switch if his teammate needs it. Bender’s combination of small forward type mobility as a 7-footer with shot blocking instincts makes him an enticing defensive prospect.

Source:
http://upsidemotor.com/2015/08/17/dragan-bender-kristaps-porzingis-fiba-scouting-report-crotia-2016-nba-draft/
I know. One thing I've learned is that some NBA scouts are bad at their job. Do I need to fetch up some of the ludicrous projections NBA scouts have made in the past?   

Here's an exercise: pick a few NBA drafts from more than 5 years ago.  Now go through and for each pick, mark if they chose the best player available given what you know now.  A simple yes or no.  You'll find something remarkable.  Not only are scouts often wrong, they're wrong MOST of the time. The success rate is well below 50%. 

I trust my own eyes at least as much as any scouting report.

Re: If Ainge picks Dragon Bender
« Reply #58 on: May 26, 2016, 01:56:40 PM »

Offline A Future of Stevens

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If you have time just watch the games.  There are probably 20-30 on YouTube, some of them linked in this thread.  His defense is squarely between "below average" and "trainwreck".  Physically, he edges toward average, mostly due to his length.  Developmentally, it is not pretty.  You can literally see him thinking and not in a good way.  Nothing comes naturally.  His lateral mobility and leaping are poor.  His base and core strength are very poor.  First step is poor.  Unable to cut off driving lanes.  Average recovery speed.  Not an impactful weak side shot blocker.  Poor rebounding and box out technique.  Not an intangibles guy. Basically, the exact opposite of Andrei Kirilenko.

Really?  Your assessment of Bender's defensive potential runs contrary to that of professional scouts:

Part of what makes Bender such a high-level prospect is that in addition to his high offensive skill level, he is a versatile and impactful player on the defensive end. Like on offense, he’s not great at one thing in particular but he’s an above average interior and perimeter defender for his size.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMxs6mhWSIE&feature=youtu.be

Of course the scout notes that Bender needs to improve his strength to become an effective post defender but he continues on to say:

Bender has the lateral quicks to be a devastating switch all screens level of defender, but refinement in his defensive fundamentals is necessary for him to get there. Either way, he should be a good defender in pick and roll situations with the ability to hedge and recover well or switch if his teammate needs it. Bender’s combination of small forward type mobility as a 7-footer with shot blocking instincts makes him an enticing defensive prospect.

Source:
http://upsidemotor.com/2015/08/17/dragan-bender-kristaps-porzingis-fiba-scouting-report-crotia-2016-nba-draft/

Yea that quote confused me also, seeing as Dragan is mainly as high as he is due to his immense defensive potential. He isn't a "shot blocker" even though he blocks a few, but his utterly absurd lateral quickness and ability to react to plays are what set him apart from every other big man. He projects as an elite perimeter defender (for a big) and a highly above average to elite paint protector (weak side shot blocker,  not post defender) in an era when these skills are in the highest demand. His ability to switch anything is uncanny. He also runs like a gazelle (said to death I know, but its true, just watch him in the open floor.)

Ive watched a lot of his clips (the random Israeli ones too,) and while I am on the fence about him, there are 2 things that stick out. 1.) His mobility is amazing defensively for someone of his stature. 2.) He already makes heady plays defensively that are surprising for a 18 year old.

The 18 year old comes with a grain of salt, namely that he is still prone to the same types of defensive lapses most 18 year olds are. These include being slightly out of position, or commiting too hard on a particular defensive move (either swinging to a shooter or getting put into the air by a fake.)
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 02:01:42 PM by A Future of Stevens »
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Re: If Ainge picks Dragon Bender
« Reply #59 on: May 26, 2016, 02:01:24 PM »

Offline ahonui06

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I know. One thing I've learned is that some NBA scouts are bad at their job. Do I need to fetch up some of the ludicrous projections NBA scouts have made in the past?   

Here's an exercise: pick a few NBA drafts from more than 5 years ago.  Now go through and for each pick, mark if they chose the best player available given what you know now.  A simple yes or no.  You'll find something remarkable.  Not only are scouts often wrong, they're wrong MOST of the time. The success rate is well below 50%. 

I trust my own eyes at least as much as any scouting report.

Sounds like you should be a scout.