Author Topic: Is Duke & Coach K's program overrated?  (Read 1170 times)

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Is Duke & Coach K's program overrated?
« on: May 25, 2016, 07:07:53 AM »

Offline slightly biased bias fan

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Looking very closely at Okafor recently with trade talk looming, his game and personality is extremely flawed and it got me wondering how someone as revered as Mike Krzyzewski would not have stamped out these flaws even partially during Okafor's year at Duke? Okafor was very lazy on defence and getting back on d throughout the college season and obviously his many personal problems must have shown its head at some time.

I began to look back at current NBA players that have come through the Duke basketball program and found that although these kids are obviously very talented almost all had extremely flawed games coming into the NBA in comparison to Calipari's Kentucky Wildcats. Laettner, Brand, Austin Rivers, J. J. Redick, McRoberts, Winslow, Plumlee brothers and Okafor all were extremely flawed going into the NBA and were all perhaps drafted too high for their classes. Now compare those players with Calipari's batch of; Bledsoe, Booker, Cousins, Davis, Cauley-Stein, Knight, Lyles, Patterson, Towns, Walls ect. these players are all very well rounded (except Cauley-Stein) and have been very productive NBA players with some being very underrated during the draft.

This leads me to the conclusion that coach K is very good at creating a unit of players that can function at an elite level but he is lacking when it comes to developing the player, skill and personality wise.

Re: Is Duke & Coach K's program overrated?
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2016, 07:32:30 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Looking very closely at Okafor recently with trade talk looming, his game and personality is extremely flawed and it got me wondering how someone as revered as Mike Krzyzewski would not have stamped out these flaws even partially during Okafor's year at Duke? Okafor was very lazy on defence and getting back on d throughout the college season and obviously his many personal problems must have shown its head at some time.

I began to look back at current NBA players that have come through the Duke basketball program and found that although these kids are obviously very talented almost all had extremely flawed games coming into the NBA in comparison to Calipari's Kentucky Wildcats. Laettner, Brand, Austin Rivers, J. J. Redick, McRoberts, Winslow, Plumlee brothers and Okafor all were extremely flawed going into the NBA and were all perhaps drafted too high for their classes. Now compare those players with Calipari's batch of; Bledsoe, Booker, Cousins, Davis, Cauley-Stein, Knight, Lyles, Patterson, Towns, Walls ect. these players are all very well rounded (except Cauley-Stein) and have been very productive NBA players with some being very underrated during the draft.

This leads me to the conclusion that coach K is very good at creating a unit of players that can function at an elite level but he is lacking when it comes to developing the player, skill and personality wise.
you can always pick and choose.  Derrick Rose was a product of Cal.  Not exactly a well rounded player.  Deng, Hill, etc. very well rounded players through Duke. 
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Re: Is Duke & Coach K's program overrated?
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2016, 07:41:58 AM »

Offline dannyboy35

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Coach k as crooked as the next college coach.

Re: Is Duke & Coach K's program overrated?
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2016, 07:53:41 AM »

Offline slightly biased bias fan

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Looking very closely at Okafor recently with trade talk looming, his game and personality is extremely flawed and it got me wondering how someone as revered as Mike Krzyzewski would not have stamped out these flaws even partially during Okafor's year at Duke? Okafor was very lazy on defence and getting back on d throughout the college season and obviously his many personal problems must have shown its head at some time.

I began to look back at current NBA players that have come through the Duke basketball program and found that although these kids are obviously very talented almost all had extremely flawed games coming into the NBA in comparison to Calipari's Kentucky Wildcats. Laettner, Brand, Austin Rivers, J. J. Redick, McRoberts, Winslow, Plumlee brothers and Okafor all were extremely flawed going into the NBA and were all perhaps drafted too high for their classes. Now compare those players with Calipari's batch of; Bledsoe, Booker, Cousins, Davis, Cauley-Stein, Knight, Lyles, Patterson, Towns, Walls ect. these players are all very well rounded (except Cauley-Stein) and have been very productive NBA players with some being very underrated during the draft.

This leads me to the conclusion that coach K is very good at creating a unit of players that can function at an elite level but he is lacking when it comes to developing the player, skill and personality wise.
you can always pick and choose.  Derrick Rose was a product of Cal.  Not exactly a well rounded player.  Deng, Hill, etc. very well rounded players through Duke.

There will always be exception to the rule and given the amount of money poured into the Duke basketball program there has to be players that will be successful but factoring in the big picture, most of the recent Duke players have had major weaknesses and this is a coach who is in charge of the U.S team. I think given the longevity of coach K's Duke tenure and the success he's had, it has masked the real weaknesses in his coaching ability in comparison to Calipari.

In regards to your Derrick Rose comparison, he is extremely well rounded prior to his injuries so I am not sure if have seen him play prior to this.

Re: Is Duke & Coach K's program overrated?
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2016, 09:11:35 AM »

Offline chilidawg

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This leads me to the conclusion that coach K is very good at creating a unit of players that can function at an elite level but he is lacking when it comes to developing the player, skill and personality wise.
[/quote/)

Isn't this what coaches are supposed to do, take the players they get and turn them into a team?  I'd much prefer that to Cal's NBA recruiting factory. 

Re: Is Duke & Coach K's program overrated?
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2016, 09:24:40 AM »

Offline slightly biased bias fan

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Isn't this what coaches are supposed to do, take the players they get and turn them into a team?  I'd much prefer that to Cal's NBA recruiting factory.
I'd say yes, if that coach has a bunch of vets in the NBA but a top college coach is mean to mould a young man on and off the court, that is essential the only reason to play college ball is to develop. Like i stated earlier I think the unit winning masks the players weaknesses where as Calipari seems to develop the players much better and creates an atmosphere that pushes the kids to improve. All UK kids have stated that playing with the best and scrimmages pushes them to want to show each other the who's the best.

My original point is how could the coach of the national team allow Okafor to be so lazy on defence and not teach him better defence or how to box out correctly?

Re: Is Duke & Coach K's program overrated?
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2016, 09:33:15 AM »

Offline slightly biased bias fan

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Here is two clips of Calipari from Graham Bensinger's Youtube channel (I highly recommend you check out his other interviews)

https://youtu.be/sRexXxPeY4A
This is of his recruiting philosophy

https://youtu.be/VS4RKotrQzA
This is how he wants players to stay in college for a min of two years

Re: Is Duke & Coach K's program overrated?
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2016, 10:14:49 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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You drew the opposite conclusion from me.

I look at the list of Duke guys in the league -

Luol Deng
Kyle Singler
Gerald Henderson
Mason & Miles Plumlee
J.J. Redick
Austin Rivers
Justise Winslow
Josh McRoberts
Jahlil Okafor

etc.


My takeaway is that Duke tends to turn out lots of guys who can serve as solid, well-rounded role players.  Guys who generally do better than you might expect given their talent.  Guys who can do multiple things on the floor that don't involve scoring.  Not too many offensive superstars. 

This is more true of the guys who spent longer at Duke (e.g. Redick, Henderson, McRoberts), than the guys who were one and done (e.g. Kyrie, Okafor, Jabari).

Looking at the names above, I doubt most of them would have lasted very long in the NBA if they hadn't gone to Duke for at least a season or two.

To me, Duke is basically the opposite of Kentucky and Syracuse.  Guys leave that program better than they arrived, and much better prepared to become a functional piece on an NBA roster.


Cal is better at recruiting the top players.  Your guess is as good as mine as to why that is.  But Cal assembles tons of top talent each year and gets his guys drafted.  I'm not sure how many of those guys leave Kentucky as better team basketball players than they arrived.

Talent being close to equal, I'd prefer a Duke product over a Kentucky product, no question.  And I would almost never want to use a draft pick on a Syracuse guy.
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Re: Is Duke & Coach K's program overrated?
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2016, 10:24:33 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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Because one year is not enough time. 


The coach's job is to win, not prepare them for the NBA.  If the coach knows the player is a one and done, they will adjust their program to get the most out of the player in that one year instead of developing them for the future years.




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Re: Is Duke & Coach K's program overrated?
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2016, 10:35:15 AM »

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Up until the late 90s or so, I think you could argue that.  Winning college program that, outside of Grant Hill, hadn't produced much at the pro level. 

But if you look at guys they've churned out going back to that '98-'99 team, the program has done a pretty good job churning about some quality pros.  Brand, Maggette, Battier, Boozer, Dunleavy, Redick, so on & so on.   If guys are playing 10-12 years in the league, that's pretty good. 

Now if you want to argue that they're not producing super duper stars, that's fair but it's not like the program is a black hole where kids with pro aspirations go to die, either.

 


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Re: Is Duke & Coach K's program overrated?
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2016, 10:47:35 AM »

Offline slightly biased bias fan

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Up until the late 90s or so, I think you could argue that.  Winning college program that, outside of Grant Hill, hadn't produced much at the pro level. 

But if you look at guys they've churned out going back to that '98-'99 team, the program has done a pretty good job churning about some quality pros.  Brand, Maggette, Battier, Boozer, Dunleavy, Redick, so on & so on.   If guys are playing 10-12 years in the league, that's pretty good. 

Now if you want to argue that they're not producing super duper stars, that's fair but it's not like the program is a black hole where kids with pro aspirations go to die, either.

Very good point, I just think that Coach K has been put on this pedestal but given the resources and talent pool available, his players are usually generally weak defensively and have one demential games.

Re: Is Duke & Coach K's program overrated?
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2016, 11:09:09 AM »

Online Donoghus

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Up until the late 90s or so, I think you could argue that.  Winning college program that, outside of Grant Hill, hadn't produced much at the pro level. 

But if you look at guys they've churned out going back to that '98-'99 team, the program has done a pretty good job churning about some quality pros.  Brand, Maggette, Battier, Boozer, Dunleavy, Redick, so on & so on.   If guys are playing 10-12 years in the league, that's pretty good. 

Now if you want to argue that they're not producing super duper stars, that's fair but it's not like the program is a black hole where kids with pro aspirations go to die, either.

Very good point, I just think that Coach K has been put on this pedestal but given the resources and talent pool available, his players are usually generally weak defensively and have one demential games.

Well, he has won 5 national titles in that program so he does have a leg to stand on here.


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Re: Is Duke & Coach K's program overrated?
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2016, 11:39:19 AM »

Online Roy H.

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ol Deng
Kyle Singler
Gerald Henderson
Mason & Miles Plumlee
J.J. Redick
Austin Rivers
Justise Winslow
Josh McRoberts
Jahlil Okafor

Rodney Hood
Kyrie Irving (not necessarily well-rounded)
Jabari Parker(see above)
Mike Dunleavy, Jr.
Dahntay Jones
Justice Winslow
Lance Thomas

The Duke program is very healthy.  I agree with wdleehi, though: with one-and-dones, there's only so much you can do in a year. It's not like every highly regarded Kentucky player achieves greatness (James Young).




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Re: Is Duke & Coach K's program overrated?
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2016, 04:14:36 PM »

Offline Forza Juventus

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Duke and Coach K have always been treated differently. Coach K has just as big an ego as all the other coaches and they are very hot and cold in tournaments. Coach K has examples of shady recruiting like anyone else and they always have one and done players. The media always give Duke and Coach K a pass.
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