Thon Maker vs Dragan Bender

[loco_91]

This is getting out of hand. Bender dominated FIBA competition before going to play for the best team (by far) in Israel.

I 100% agree that this is getting out of hand ....

And which is the fiba competition that Bender dominated
BTW This season Macabi is NOT the best team by far in Israel which has A VERY WEAK LEAGUE and also failed miserably in Euroleague.    Don`t use Maccabi`s past to make it look like Bander plays for the European Spurs....

http://www.fibaeurope.com/compID_8aYeHlfuGF-mF5IqO8aFH1.season_2014.roundID_10067.teamID_2168.playerID_100891.html

This performance netted him the top ranking of any international ever in Layne Vashro's model. Also, the Israeli league is NOT weak. It is on par with the best NCAA conferences:

http://nyloncalculus.com/2015/11/06/deep-dives-measuring-level-of-competition-around-the-world/

[acieEarl]

I think there's a pretty good chance that both Maker and Bender suck in the NBA. Both these guys are getting drafted off potential. I've watched the Bender highlights and haven't been all that impressed. Then again I woulda said the same thing about Porzingas and a lot of people were wrong about him.

I just hope LA or Philly fall in love with Bender and one of the top 2 picks falls to us.

[mmmmm]

Help us do what, exactly?  Get past Toronto and Cleveland?

No rookie we pick is going to do that.   So I take it you are in favor of trading for or signing a veteran, star player.

However, if we add a rookie who can fill an important hole (e.g. Hield with his shooting/scoring ability or Poeltl with his defence and rebounding) and then add another impact player via free agency or trades who can help us fill another big weakness or two (Dwight, Monroe, Horford, Butler, etc) then those two additions may well be enough to improve us to the point where we can really challenge Cleveland.

Remember that we gave an almost completely healthy #3 seed Atlanta Hawks team a pretty tough run without Bradley, without Olynyk, and with 30% of a Crowder.  With those guys healthy, there's a good chance we beat Atlanta in that series.

I agree, with the statement in bold, but my assertion is that "with those guys healthy", we don't play a rookie like Hield very much if at all in that series.

Rookies like Hield get lots of minutes on bad teams.  If we are another 48+ win team, we aren't going to give lots of minutes to any rookie unless they are a transcendent rookie.   Marcus Smart was one of the very, very rare rookies to get lots of minutes on a team that made the playoffs in 2014, but even that was a sub-.500 team and he got minutes because we were almost a tanking level team in midwinter after unloading Rondo (which opened the door for Smart to enter the starting lineup) before we obtained Isaiah and fought our way through the back door into the playoffs.

Go look over the playoff rosters of NBA teams year after year.  Rookies barely get minutes on playoff teams, especially _good_ playoff teams. 

I am not opposed to forego drafting Bender (at #3) or Maker (later in the draft), per CoachBo's plea.  But then I want to hear the realistic plan for transactions that will 'help us win now' to get over the hump in the playoffs. 

And a realistic plan isn't going to depend on rookies.

That's not to say you can't draft rookies and have them on your team and still go deep in the playoffs and they might even be able to contribute here and there.  But if you _depend_ on them as part of your plan to get there, forget it.  That's not a realistic plan.

[ederson]

This is getting out of hand. Bender dominated FIBA competition before going to play for the best team (by far) in Israel.

I 100% agree that this is getting out of hand ....

And which is the fiba competition that Bender dominated
BTW This season Macabi is NOT the best team by far in Israel which has A VERY WEAK LEAGUE and also failed miserably in Euroleague.    Don`t use Maccabi`s past to make it look like Bander plays for the European Spurs....

http://www.fibaeurope.com/compID_8aYeHlfuGF-mF5IqO8aFH1.season_2014.roundID_10067.teamID_2168.playerID_100891.html

This performance netted him the top ranking of any international ever in Layne Vashro's model. Also, the Israeli league is NOT weak. It is on par with the best NCAA conferences:

http://nyloncalculus.com/2015/11/06/deep-dives-measuring-level-of-competition-around-the-world/

Are you seriously using a method that ranks Diamond Ball Tournament higher than World cup as an argument? oh please....... Which also ranks Israeli league lower than BELGIAN league??? That`s you idea of a strong/not weak league?

As can also see the tournament you are talking about was 2 years ago and he wasn`t even the MVP.... I guess whatever happened since then is irrelevant

[Bobshot]

Nice to see this thread, since I've been talking up Maker lately after seeing his videos.

The Celtics sorely need his height and athleticism. Or somebody like him, for example Dieng or Whiteside. Other than Johnson, they have nobody up front at the 4-5 who can jump!

The big negative on Maker is his level of experience--HS. Not much of a baseline.
He is also late on the draft scene, declaring in April after league approval. But he's coming up the draft order --Chad Ford has him going late in the first round. Bird saw him in Indy a couple days ago, and the Pistons yesterday. He is about the same age as many in the draft--19.
6 or 7 months older than Bender.

I suspect he will climb further, and could well be a top 10 pick by draft time. That combination of height, athleticism and skills usually goes first in the draft.

Bender has an advantage in playing against better competition, but Maker is quicker and more athletic--which maybe gives him more upside.

Wonder what Danny's take is.

[Bobshot]

I think there's a pretty good chance that both Maker and Bender suck in the NBA. Both these guys are getting drafted off potential. I've watched the Bender highlights and haven't been all that impressed. Then again I woulda said the same thing about Porzingas and a lot of people were wrong about him.

I just hope LA or Philly fall in love with Bender and one of the top 2 picks falls to us.

Porzingis' success helps Bender.

[budMovin]

Nice to see this thread, since I've been talking up Maker lately after seeing his videos.

The Celtics sorely need his height and athleticism. Or somebody like him, for example Dieng or Whiteside. Other than Johnson, they have nobody up front at the 4-5 who can jump!

The big negative on Maker is his level of experience--HS. Not much of a baseline.
He is also late on the draft scene, declaring in April after league approval. But he's coming up the draft order --Chad Ford has him going late in the first round. Bird saw him in Indy a couple days ago, and the Pistons yesterday. He is about the same age as many in the draft--19.
6 or 7 months older than Bender.

I suspect he will climb further, and could well be a top 10 pick by draft time. That combination of height, athleticism and skills usually goes first in the draft.

Bender has an advantage in playing against better competition, but Maker is quicker and more athletic--which maybe gives him more upside.

Wonder what Danny's take is.

What skills?

[SHAQATTACK]

Anybody who idolizes KG is alright in my book ......that's the right fearless attitude and motor we need .

I d take Maker and also one of those Euro 7 footers Dannys been eye ball n.

Maker is the sleeper of the draft for bigs.

[CoachBo]

This is getting out of hand. Bender dominated FIBA competition before going to play for the best team (by far) in Israel.

I 100% agree that this is getting out of hand ....

Which is the fiba competition that Bender dominated
BTW This season Macabi is NOT the best team by far in Israel which has A VERY WEAK LEAGUE and also failed miserably in Euroleague.    Don`t use Maccabi`s past to make it look like Bander plays for the European Spurs....

I am bored with this entire attempt to conflate the skills of two massive projects who won't help this core Celtics group win a thing.

But your post is well taken. I'm still waiting for the "Dragan Bender>Michael Jordan" posts which are certain to come.

There are numerous uses for the 3rd pick which will help this core group. Okafor would help this core group. Jimmy Butler would help this core group. No Knees Noel would help defensively, but any Celtics team with him on it might struggle to score 75 a night. There are others.

This is really a simple discussion: You've assembled a core which has overachieved and had some success.

Now, are you going to add to that core to give them a chance at more success, or are you going to flip them the bird with these two, sending the clear message that "You stink. We can't win any more with you so we're going to make a massive reach with the best draft pick we've had in 20 years, and we've lost interest in your success."

[Eja117]

I think there's a pretty good chance that both Maker and Bender suck in the NBA. Both these guys are getting drafted off potential. I've watched the Bender highlights and haven't been all that impressed. Then again I woulda said the same thing about Porzingas and a lot of people were wrong about him.

I just hope LA or Philly fall in love with Bender and one of the top 2 picks falls to us.

Porzingis' success helps Bender.

It shouldn't

[PaulP34]

I would be completely ecstatic if Benders name was called at 1 or 2 but that's wishful thinking and I'm sure Danny is gonna be stuck picking him at 3. I do not wish to draft Bender but i can see Danny making that choice.

[alldaboston]

I think there's a pretty good chance that both Maker and Bender suck in the NBA. Both these guys are getting drafted off potential. I've watched the Bender highlights and haven't been all that impressed. Then again I woulda said the same thing about Porzingas and a lot of people were wrong about him.

I just hope LA or Philly fall in love with Bender and one of the top 2 picks falls to us.

Porzingis' success helps Bender.

It shouldn't

That's true. But it doesn't hurt that Porzingis is having success in the NBA.

[Bobshot]

Anybody who idolizes KG is alright in my book ......that's the right fearless attitude and motor we need .

I d take Maker and also one of those Euro 7 footers Dannys been eye ball n.

Maker is the sleeper of the draft for bigs.

Yeah, Maker has the length and athleticism that draws GM attention. I saw a video of Bird watching him in a workout in Indiana. Larry doesn't waste his time and he knows talent.

You watch this kid dunk 2 ft over the basket, and then hit a 3 --and you wonder if there is anything he can't do. But how does he match up against college level competition? That's the question. At least the freshman have stood out at the college level.

The draft is 3 weeks away, and there will be considerable movement in the draft boards up to draft day. You'll hear rumors about guys moving up and guys moving down.  I would bet that the best bigs will move up, and they'll be gone by 15-16. Which is what Danny has to be alert for. There was no one except Portis left for him at 16 last year.

I think Danny is looking for a big who can help now. Looks like he thinks Bender is a couple years away. Chriss strikes me as someone he might be interested in at #3. Zizic maybe at 16.
Others Poelti, Ellenson, Sabonis and the Chinese kid. Having said that, he might go for a smaller scorer like Murray.

It depends on who is available when he makes a pick.

[Bobshot]

Nice to see this thread, since I've been talking up Maker lately after seeing his videos.

The Celtics sorely need his height and athleticism. Or somebody like him, for example Dieng or Whiteside. Other than Johnson, they have nobody up front at the 4-5 who can jump!

The big negative on Maker is his level of experience--HS. Not much of a baseline.
He is also late on the draft scene, declaring in April after league approval. But he's coming up the draft order --Chad Ford has him going late in the first round. Bird saw him in Indy a couple days ago, and the Pistons yesterday. He is about the same age as many in the draft--19.
6 or 7 months older than Bender.

I suspect he will climb further, and could well be a top 10 pick by draft time. That combination of height, athleticism and skills usually goes first in the draft.

Bender has an advantage in playing against better competition, but Maker is quicker and more athletic--which maybe gives him more upside.

Wonder what Danny's take is.

What skills?

He can shoot -inside or outside. He can pass, rebound and block shots. Run the court. Hard to find any one player who can do all those things. The only question is his level of experience. How does he match up against college level players? How well can he defend? 

[Ogaju]

How long is this Dragan Bender thing going to drag on? Tee Hee Hee !!!