Author Topic: Bender vs Sabonis  (Read 31992 times)

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Re: Bender vs Sabonis
« Reply #120 on: May 28, 2016, 04:10:32 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I think from a health standpoint Bender is the biggest risk in the lottery.  He's a 7 footer who's never played above 216 lbs.  His build is similar to a young Kevin Durant (who's already lost an NBA season to a broken foot) in that they both have extremely narrow shoulders. Durant had to add almost 30 lbs after entering the NBA just to play mostly on the perimeter.  Coincidentally, both players weighed in at 216 lbs at their pre draft workouts.  Even if Bender adds just 25 lbs to play in the NBA does anyone feel confident he'll be able to carry that weight safely over the course of an NBA season?  Bender's brother - who is his closest genetic match and who did play reasonable minutes in a professional league has torn his ACL... Twice.

Unlike any of the college prospects, we have no idea how Bender will hold up physically over the course of a season since he's only played a few minutes a game.  You can fall in love with his potential, but the single most important quality of any professional athlete is health - ie the ability to play big minutes and play them over an 82 game schedule plus playoff games.

nice points. best case he won't be ready until 2-3 years later

can't see CBS playing anyone not physically ready to withstand the NBA grind
So for the bagillionth time I ask why you think Ingram would get picked? Bender's body is far superior to Ingram's right now. Using your logic Ingram won't see the floor for all of his rookie contract here...

Hunter played this year, if you have a skill that fits then you will play. Both Ingram AND Bender have skills we need in our team so they will play.

I can't wait for the workouts to begin so we can clear up the fact that Bender is for real. People are calling Maker a better player for ****! Guarantee that if Bender had gone to school with Maker, was born in Louisiana and had a hard upbringing in the rough part of town he'd be the consensus number 1 on here.. it's so twisted..

1. Brendan Ingram is a small forward. 

2. Ingram has absolutely dominant physical attributes (height, length) for the small forward position.  There might be one or two small forwards in the entire NBA who are longer than Ingram. He's going to be able to shoot over just about every single small forward in the NBA.  Even if he gets switched over to the PF spot from time to time, his 7'3" length is still going to give him an advantage against almost all NBA power forwards.

3. While physical strength is a factor at the Small Forward spot, it's not something the position outright depends on.  Tayshaun Prince was perfectly effective for many years as a starting Small Forward, and even after years as a pro he was probably no more muscular then Ingram is now.  Durant is another example of a twiggy young kid who had a lot of success at the SF spot as a rookie. 

4) Ingram is a very good scorer.  He can hit a variety of touch shots, and has an extremely polished offensive game.  He's show the ability to score in isolation, to score one-on-one, even against quality defensive players. 

5) Ingram is incredbily skinny, but he has a very wide frame, wide shoulders, etc.  His body reminds me of a young Anthony Davis in that regard.  He looks like a guy who could add bulk. With Bender I'm no so sure, as he really does look like he has a pretty small and narrow frame.

Bender projects to play PF / C - positions that are highly dependant on physicality.  He's going to have to try to hold his rebounding and defensive position against guys who are so much stronger it isn't even funny.  He's going occasionally have to switch on to NBA centers, where he is potentially going to come up against guys like:

* Nerlens Noel (7'0", 7'5" wingspan)
* Demarcus Cousins (6'11", 7'5" wingspan, 270 pounds)
* Greg Monroe (6'11", 7'2" wingspan, 250 pounds)
* Pau Gasol (7'0", 7'5" wingspan, 250 pounds)
* Marc Gasol (7'0", 7'5" wingspan, 250 pounds)
* Joel Embiid (7'0", 7'6" wingspan, 260 pounds)
* Jahlil Okafor (6'11", 7'5" wingspan, 260 pounds)
* Dirk Nowitski (7'0", 7'5" wingspan, 240 pounds)

Even with a 7'0" height and a 7'2" wingspan, Bender is often going to face guys who are longer then he is - and he's almost always going to face guys who are stronger than he is.

To put things into perspective, Brandon Bass, Paul Millsap, Jordan Mickey and Kawhi Leonard actually have around the same wingspan as Bender.  Sully's wingspan is only 1" shorter.

In his current league, Bender's height, length and mobility give him a major advantage against 80% - 90% of the guys he comes up against.  The NBA is probably the most athletic league in the world, and when rookie big men come here usually the first thing they talk about adjusting to is the size, strength and athleticism of all the big men. 

Bender isn't going to have the same big size advantage in the NBA as he has right now - his length and height will be merely sufficient to allow him to remain competitive...it's not going to be nearly sufficient to make up for his lack of physical strength.  If he can build up his body to be in the 235 pound - 240 pound range, then he'll be fine.  He won't have an advantage necessarily, but he'll be fine.

Bender doesn't have the physical attributes to give him a dominant edge so he's going to need to rely on his finesse and skills to give him an edge - and I think his finesse and skills are going to need a LOT of development before he will gain any type of edge from them.

Just my 2 cents.

Re: Bender vs Sabonis
« Reply #121 on: May 28, 2016, 05:29:10 AM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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Crim, my comment there was pointing at the fact Triboy claims Bender's body is 2-3 years away from being an NBA body. My point is so is Ingram's but it isn't a reason to not pick them.

You make some valid points about the long term of the two, some of which point to why Ingram is almost certainly going 2nd ahead of Bender.

With Bender and all PF prospects I'm less concerned with wingspan and more concerned with standing reach. bender has a 9'3" standing reach which is good.

Bender will have to strengthen  to physically compete and it'll probably always be the way a team will attack him. Similar to how teams would sag off of Rondo and let him shoot, everyone will have a weaker part of their game. But I think relatively it won't be a problem for him.

Furthermore  finesse and skill is his game. He's been a highly efficient shooter and he's shown good passing ability, at least from what I've seen. That's where his value is, being able to take these physical players out to the perimeter or beating them down the floor. That gives huge value to the rest of the team. You aren't drafting him to be a go to player in iso situations but given the system we us I don't think that's a problem

Re: Bender vs Sabonis
« Reply #122 on: May 28, 2016, 07:46:11 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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With Bender and all PF prospects I'm less concerned with wingspan and more concerned with standing reach. bender has a 9'3" standing reach which is good.

He also has a worse vertical than Sully go figure?  If Ingram and Bender are there, rest assured Ainge will take Ingram.

Quote
Bender projects to play PF / C - positions that are highly dependant on physicality.  He's going to have to try to hold his rebounding and defensive position against guys who are so much stronger it isn't even funny.  He's going occasionally have to switch on to NBA centers, where he is potentially going to come up against guys like:

* Nerlens Noel (7'0", 7'5" wingspan)
* Demarcus Cousins (6'11", 7'5" wingspan, 270 pounds)
* Greg Monroe (6'11", 7'2" wingspan, 250 pounds)
* Pau Gasol (7'0", 7'5" wingspan, 250 pounds)
* Marc Gasol (7'0", 7'5" wingspan, 250 pounds)
* Joel Embiid (7'0", 7'6" wingspan, 260 pounds)
* Jahlil Okafor (6'11", 7'5" wingspan, 260 pounds)
* Dirk Nowitski (7'0", 7'5" wingspan, 240 pounds)

I think he will get muscled but I do not agree that he projects there.   He is soft and wants to play outside.   Watch some video of him.    He could be a stretch four, but a C, I do not think so.  His size might make one think that but I think that he is ill-suited to play the C spot.   He lacks the mentality of a C, sadly he has more of a SF mentality.

Quote
Bender doesn't have the physical attributes to give him a dominant edge so he's going to need to rely on his finesse and skills to give him an edge - and I think his finesse and skills are going to need a LOT of development before he will gain any type of edge from them.

Agree, with your assessment here, 100%.   He has PROJECT stamped all over his forehead.

Re: Bender vs Sabonis
« Reply #123 on: May 28, 2016, 08:41:40 AM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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With Bender and all PF prospects I'm less concerned with wingspan and more concerned with standing reach. bender has a 9'3" standing reach which is good.

He also has a worse vertical than Sully go figure?  If Ingram and Bender are there, rest assured Ainge will take Ingram.

How is vertical measured? Isn't it the height you jump - your standing reach? So Sully is more bouncy? Doesn't necessarily mean he can jump higher.

I agree Ingram is better btw, that was never the disagreement

Re: Bender vs Sabonis
« Reply #124 on: May 30, 2016, 05:54:30 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Wonder why no word on bender yet...

Re: Bender vs Sabonis
« Reply #125 on: May 30, 2016, 05:59:08 PM »

Online jpd985

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Wonder why no word on bender yet...

I believe his season is still going on.

Re: Bender vs Sabonis
« Reply #126 on: May 30, 2016, 06:01:30 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Wonder why no word on bender yet...

I believe his season is still going on.

Unless ainge wants to see him warm the bench....

Bender was suppose to give ainge and ainge jr. a private workout

Re: Bender vs Sabonis
« Reply #127 on: May 31, 2016, 09:17:46 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Wonder why no word on bender yet...

I believe his season is still going on.

Unless ainge wants to see him warm the bench....

Bender was suppose to give ainge and ainge jr. a private workout

The Ainges watched Bender in his team's practices in Israel this weekend.

Bender will be coming over to the US as soon as his season is over to go through a scouting workout for the Celtics (and probably a few other teams).

The Herald has a story that covers this. 

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celtics/2016/05/celts_trying_hard_to_size_up_possible_no_3_pick_dragan_bender
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Re: Bender vs Sabonis
« Reply #128 on: May 31, 2016, 09:49:35 PM »

Offline elcotte

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Wonder why no word on bender yet...

I believe his season is still going on.

Unless ainge wants to see him warm the bench....

Bender was suppose to give ainge and ainge jr. a private workout

What "word" are you waiting for?

Re: Bender vs Sabonis
« Reply #129 on: May 31, 2016, 09:52:49 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Wonder why no word on bender yet...

I believe his season is still going on.

Unless ainge wants to see him warm the bench....

Bender was suppose to give ainge and ainge jr. a private workout

What "word" are you waiting for?

From either Austin or Danny. 

Something along the lines, this kid is a phenom.   

Re: Bender vs Sabonis
« Reply #130 on: May 31, 2016, 09:53:50 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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Shut up guise.
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Re: Bender vs Sabonis
« Reply #131 on: May 31, 2016, 10:10:54 PM »

Offline PickNRoll

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I think from a health standpoint Bender is the biggest risk in the lottery.  He's a 7 footer who's never played above 216 lbs.  His build is similar to a young Kevin Durant (who's already lost an NBA season to a broken foot) in that they both have extremely narrow shoulders. Durant had to add almost 30 lbs after entering the NBA just to play mostly on the perimeter.  Coincidentally, both players weighed in at 216 lbs at their pre draft workouts.  Even if Bender adds just 25 lbs to play in the NBA does anyone feel confident he'll be able to carry that weight safely over the course of an NBA season?  Bender's brother - who is his closest genetic match and who did play reasonable minutes in a professional league has torn his ACL... Twice.

Unlike any of the college prospects, we have no idea how Bender will hold up physically over the course of a season since he's only played a few minutes a game.  You can fall in love with his potential, but the single most important quality of any professional athlete is health - ie the ability to play big minutes and play them over an 82 game schedule plus playoff games.

nice points. best case he won't be ready until 2-3 years later

can't see CBS playing anyone not physically ready to withstand the NBA grind
So for the bagillionth time I ask why you think Ingram would get picked? Bender's body is far superior to Ingram's right now. Using your logic Ingram won't see the floor for all of his rookie contract here...

Hunter played this year, if you have a skill that fits then you will play. Both Ingram AND Bender have skills we need in our team so they will play.

I can't wait for the workouts to begin so we can clear up the fact that Bender is for real. People are calling Maker a better player for ****! Guarantee that if Bender had gone to school with Maker, was born in Louisiana and had a hard upbringing in the rough part of town he'd be the consensus number 1 on here.. it's so twisted..

1. Brendan Ingram is a small forward. 

2. Ingram has absolutely dominant physical attributes (height, length) for the small forward position.  There might be one or two small forwards in the entire NBA who are longer than Ingram. He's going to be able to shoot over just about every single small forward in the NBA.  Even if he gets switched over to the PF spot from time to time, his 7'3" length is still going to give him an advantage against almost all NBA power forwards.

3. While physical strength is a factor at the Small Forward spot, it's not something the position outright depends on.  Tayshaun Prince was perfectly effective for many years as a starting Small Forward, and even after years as a pro he was probably no more muscular then Ingram is now.  Durant is another example of a twiggy young kid who had a lot of success at the SF spot as a rookie. 

4) Ingram is a very good scorer.  He can hit a variety of touch shots, and has an extremely polished offensive game.  He's show the ability to score in isolation, to score one-on-one, even against quality defensive players. 

5) Ingram is incredbily skinny, but he has a very wide frame, wide shoulders, etc.  His body reminds me of a young Anthony Davis in that regard.  He looks like a guy who could add bulk. With Bender I'm no so sure, as he really does look like he has a pretty small and narrow frame.

Bender projects to play PF / C - positions that are highly dependant on physicality.  He's going to have to try to hold his rebounding and defensive position against guys who are so much stronger it isn't even funny.  He's going occasionally have to switch on to NBA centers, where he is potentially going to come up against guys like:

* Nerlens Noel (7'0", 7'5" wingspan)
* Demarcus Cousins (6'11", 7'5" wingspan, 270 pounds)
* Greg Monroe (6'11", 7'2" wingspan, 250 pounds)
* Pau Gasol (7'0", 7'5" wingspan, 250 pounds)
* Marc Gasol (7'0", 7'5" wingspan, 250 pounds)
* Joel Embiid (7'0", 7'6" wingspan, 260 pounds)
* Jahlil Okafor (6'11", 7'5" wingspan, 260 pounds)
* Dirk Nowitski (7'0", 7'5" wingspan, 240 pounds)

Even with a 7'0" height and a 7'2" wingspan, Bender is often going to face guys who are longer then he is - and he's almost always going to face guys who are stronger than he is.

To put things into perspective, Brandon Bass, Paul Millsap, Jordan Mickey and Kawhi Leonard actually have around the same wingspan as Bender.  Sully's wingspan is only 1" shorter.

In his current league, Bender's height, length and mobility give him a major advantage against 80% - 90% of the guys he comes up against.  The NBA is probably the most athletic league in the world, and when rookie big men come here usually the first thing they talk about adjusting to is the size, strength and athleticism of all the big men. 

Bender isn't going to have the same big size advantage in the NBA as he has right now - his length and height will be merely sufficient to allow him to remain competitive...it's not going to be nearly sufficient to make up for his lack of physical strength.  If he can build up his body to be in the 235 pound - 240 pound range, then he'll be fine.  He won't have an advantage necessarily, but he'll be fine.

Bender doesn't have the physical attributes to give him a dominant edge so he's going to need to rely on his finesse and skills to give him an edge - and I think his finesse and skills are going to need a LOT of development before he will gain any type of edge from them.

Just my 2 cents.
TP for a well-reasoned look at Bender's limits.  Much better than my "I hate Bender" rants. ;)

Re: Bender vs Sabonis
« Reply #132 on: June 01, 2016, 12:35:11 AM »

Offline mmmmm

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I think from a health standpoint Bender is the biggest risk in the lottery.  He's a 7 footer who's never played above 216 lbs.  His build is similar to a young Kevin Durant (who's already lost an NBA season to a broken foot) in that they both have extremely narrow shoulders. Durant had to add almost 30 lbs after entering the NBA just to play mostly on the perimeter.  Coincidentally, both players weighed in at 216 lbs at their pre draft workouts.  Even if Bender adds just 25 lbs to play in the NBA does anyone feel confident he'll be able to carry that weight safely over the course of an NBA season?  Bender's brother - who is his closest genetic match and who did play reasonable minutes in a professional league has torn his ACL... Twice.

Unlike any of the college prospects, we have no idea how Bender will hold up physically over the course of a season since he's only played a few minutes a game.  You can fall in love with his potential, but the single most important quality of any professional athlete is health - ie the ability to play big minutes and play them over an 82 game schedule plus playoff games.

nice points. best case he won't be ready until 2-3 years later

can't see CBS playing anyone not physically ready to withstand the NBA grind
So for the bagillionth time I ask why you think Ingram would get picked? Bender's body is far superior to Ingram's right now. Using your logic Ingram won't see the floor for all of his rookie contract here...

Hunter played this year, if you have a skill that fits then you will play. Both Ingram AND Bender have skills we need in our team so they will play.

I can't wait for the workouts to begin so we can clear up the fact that Bender is for real. People are calling Maker a better player for ****! Guarantee that if Bender had gone to school with Maker, was born in Louisiana and had a hard upbringing in the rough part of town he'd be the consensus number 1 on here.. it's so twisted..

1. Brendan Ingram is a small forward. 

2. Ingram has absolutely dominant physical attributes (height, length) for the small forward position.  There might be one or two small forwards in the entire NBA who are longer than Ingram. He's going to be able to shoot over just about every single small forward in the NBA.  Even if he gets switched over to the PF spot from time to time, his 7'3" length is still going to give him an advantage against almost all NBA power forwards.

3. While physical strength is a factor at the Small Forward spot, it's not something the position outright depends on.  Tayshaun Prince was perfectly effective for many years as a starting Small Forward, and even after years as a pro he was probably no more muscular then Ingram is now.  Durant is another example of a twiggy young kid who had a lot of success at the SF spot as a rookie. 

4) Ingram is a very good scorer.  He can hit a variety of touch shots, and has an extremely polished offensive game.  He's show the ability to score in isolation, to score one-on-one, even against quality defensive players. 

5) Ingram is incredbily skinny, but he has a very wide frame, wide shoulders, etc.  His body reminds me of a young Anthony Davis in that regard.  He looks like a guy who could add bulk. With Bender I'm no so sure, as he really does look like he has a pretty small and narrow frame.

Bender projects to play PF / C - positions that are highly dependant on physicality.  He's going to have to try to hold his rebounding and defensive position against guys who are so much stronger it isn't even funny.  He's going occasionally have to switch on to NBA centers, where he is potentially going to come up against guys like:

* Nerlens Noel (7'0", 7'5" wingspan)
* Demarcus Cousins (6'11", 7'5" wingspan, 270 pounds)
* Greg Monroe (6'11", 7'2" wingspan, 250 pounds)
* Pau Gasol (7'0", 7'5" wingspan, 250 pounds)
* Marc Gasol (7'0", 7'5" wingspan, 250 pounds)
* Joel Embiid (7'0", 7'6" wingspan, 260 pounds)
* Jahlil Okafor (6'11", 7'5" wingspan, 260 pounds)
* Dirk Nowitski (7'0", 7'5" wingspan, 240 pounds)

Even with a 7'0" height and a 7'2" wingspan, Bender is often going to face guys who are longer then he is - and he's almost always going to face guys who are stronger than he is.

To put things into perspective, Brandon Bass, Paul Millsap, Jordan Mickey and Kawhi Leonard actually have around the same wingspan as Bender.  Sully's wingspan is only 1" shorter.

In his current league, Bender's height, length and mobility give him a major advantage against 80% - 90% of the guys he comes up against.  The NBA is probably the most athletic league in the world, and when rookie big men come here usually the first thing they talk about adjusting to is the size, strength and athleticism of all the big men. 

Bender isn't going to have the same big size advantage in the NBA as he has right now - his length and height will be merely sufficient to allow him to remain competitive...it's not going to be nearly sufficient to make up for his lack of physical strength.  If he can build up his body to be in the 235 pound - 240 pound range, then he'll be fine.  He won't have an advantage necessarily, but he'll be fine.

Bender doesn't have the physical attributes to give him a dominant edge so he's going to need to rely on his finesse and skills to give him an edge - and I think his finesse and skills are going to need a LOT of development before he will gain any type of edge from them.

Just my 2 cents.
Where are you getting those numbers?

I've only found Nowitzki's wingspan mentioned as 7' 1" or 7' 2" (and only as passing reference in articles on nbadraft.net).

It might be a bit more instructive to go look up the pre-draft measurements of more similar physical players, such as Tyson Chandler, Kevin Garnett, Chris Bosch, Anthony Davis, Marcus Camby, Dikembe Mutombo, Pau Gasol, etc.   If I recall, all of those guys weighed in between 214 and 227 lbs pre-draft.  KG was also 18, but I think the rest were 19 or 20 when drafted.
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Re: Bender vs Sabonis
« Reply #133 on: June 01, 2016, 02:42:47 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Where are you getting those numbers?

I've only found Nowitzki's wingspan mentioned as 7' 1" or 7' 2" (and only as passing reference in articles on nbadraft.net).

Some of them are difficult to find, but if you search hard enough they are out there.

I thought I had read at one point that Dirk had a 7'5" wingspan, I might have been mistaken on that one.

The others I listed all legit though, and you cannot even begin to compare Bender to Dirk because Dirk was about 50x better then Bender when he was entering the NBA.

There is actually an interview with Charles Barley in which he talks about the first time he saw Dirk play as a member of the dream team.  Apparently the Dream Team played an exhibition / practice game against Germany before Dirk came to the NBA, and Dirk absolutely destroyed to the tune of something like 40+ points.  The US guys apparently were completely dumbdounded and didn't know what hit them, and Chuck said his final thought was "this guy is going to be amazing".

Bender right now is not that guy.


It might be a bit more instructive to go look up the pre-draft measurements of more similar physical players, such as Tyson Chandler, Kevin Garnett, Chris Bosch, Anthony Davis, Marcus Camby, Dikembe Mutombo, Pau Gasol, etc.   If I recall, all of those guys weighed in between 214 and 227 lbs pre-draft.  KG was also 18, but I think the rest were 19 or 20 when drafted.

I am aware of the measurements of those guys. 

Kevin Garnett, Anthony Davis and Paul Gasol all had elite length (~7'5" wingspan).  Davis and Garnett also added elite athleticism to that.  I believe Camby's wingspan was also somewhere in the 7'5 range.  I haven't checked Mutombo, but I'd guess he would be around that range too.

Chris Bosh's wingspan was 7' 3.5", he was an excellent rebounder early in his career, and he was always a far better offensive player then Bender is.

Chandler is really the only guy on that list who had so-so length (I think around 7'1" or 7'2" wingspan from memory) and he has only managed something like 3-4 impressive seasons as a good defensive role player - something I'm confident Bender could also become, but not something I'd wager a #3 pick on.

If you look at the guys who have become big stars, it's pretty hard to think of guys who didn't have either:

1) Elite athleticism
2) Elite length/height
3) Elite strength
4) Elite skills/talent

Even if you look at the guys who have been dominant in th epast 10 years:

1) Dwight Howard had elite length, strength, talent (defense, rebounding) and athleticism
2) Lebron had elite strength, talent and athleticism
3 ) Durant had elite length, athleticism and talent
4) Gasol had elite length and skill
5) Garnett had elite length, athleticism and skill
6) Cousins has elite length, strength and skill
7) Duncan had elite length and skill
8) Shaq had elite length, strength and skill
9) Davis has elite length, athleticism and skill
101) Drummond has elite length and strength

I think Bender has good length, above average athleticism, above average talent, and poor strength.  I don't feel he is 'elite' in any one of those categories,  which is why I really struggle to see him becoming good enough to justify a #3 pick.

That's just my way of looking at things - of course everybody is entitled to their opinions, since right now all we can do is make predictions - none of us can see the future! :)

Re: Bender vs Sabonis
« Reply #134 on: June 01, 2016, 03:22:28 AM »

Offline ederson

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Wonder why no word on bender yet...

I believe his season is still going on.

Macabi qualified to the semifinals , first game 6/6 and most probably will reach the finals too. At least 2 more weeks.....