Bender vs Sabonis

[BitterJim]

It's really too bad that Bender wasn't able to play for Croatia last summer at Eurobasket.  Prior to that tourney, every International competition, basketball camp, etc. where he played against older peers he excelled and appeared to have a massive upward trajectory.  But unfortunately, because of Adidas vs. Nike politics and limited playing time on his new pro team we have very limited film on him from the last year.

We call this a rationalization where I work .

Rationalisation happens in two steps:

A decision, action, judgement is made for a given reason, or no (known) reason at all.
A rationalisation is performed, constructing a seemingly good or logical reason, as an attempt to justify the act after the fact (for oneself or others).

His stats are not due to politics, keep telling yourself that.   When has Nike ever tried to suppress a player?   Never.   They want them to play so they can sell shoes.   

For me Sabonis seems to top out at fringe NBA starter.  Bender, on the other hand, because of his unique physical profile (size combined with agile movement) seems like he could be something special if the cards are played right.  For that reason, I'd be willing to risk him being a total bust and draft him at #3.

I also don't quite know why these two are being compared to each other since they fall at significantly different parts of the draft.  The Celtics could easily select both if they wanted.

I kind of hope we work out these two the same day.   It would settle much of the debate.   Guys who jump 27" are special in that they are trying to play an athletes sport when they are not.   Lateral movement is great, but he is so weak and can't jump that he will not be able to do much with it.   Porzingas is a way better athlete.  He also did not hide and why is Bender hiding from the  combine tests?

BECAUSE IT WOULD HURT HIS STOCK.

A very misleading, BIASED accusation/summary. Bender was not 'hiding' from anything, as others have stated several times, his pro team is still playing, he is under contract to play for them and their season is not over, therefore he cannot attend the combine. That alone takes all credibility out of your remaining comments.

Seems like Celtics4ever is trying to rationalize it 

[Tr1boy]

And if bender at 15 was outplaying guys a year older etc. Why isn't he able to do that against 20 year olds in his so called pro league?  And this pro league considered at par with the dleague (talent wise)

The coach wants to win. So the young but ultra talented bender sits.  Bc the draft is coming up, his agent wants bender to sit(this is an ridiculous excuse btw).  Bc bender is... he can't play.   So many excuses.  Bottom line is the Celts are going to be an experimental ground for benders development.    Experimental grounds he can add 20-25 more pounds into that skinny body.  Just be aware of the risks   

[Monkhouse]

And if bender at 15 was outplaying guys a year older etc. Why isn't he able to do that against 20 year olds in his so called pro league?  And this pro league considered at par with the dleague (talent wise)

The coach wants to win. So the young but ultra talented bender sits.  Bc the draft is coming up, his agent wants bender to sit(this is an ridiculous excuse btw).  Bc bender is... he can't play.   So many excuses.  Bottom line is the Celts are going to be an experimental ground for benders development.    Experimental grounds he can add 20-25 more pounds into that skinny body.  Just be aware of the risk

So you want to waste a top 3 pick on a player that we could simply trade down for?

I don't get the hype on Sabonis. I do like him, and believe he'll be an excellent player with high role player-Allstar caliber, but he is definitely not worth a top 3 pick in my book. Bender is justifiable, because of how young he is, and the physical gifts he has, plus the professionalism Bender is able to demonstrate.

[elcotte]

Sabonis flashing his rebounding skills. Very quality rebounder

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fk5kHLiN9U

Still pounding your Binky ? 

Honestly, if sabonis had dominated bender we would never hear the end of it from you.

I don't dig up stuff from 2-3 years ago.  Alot can change

Poeltl apparently took it to Sabonis last time they met at international play.   Yet recently(2 months ago)Sabonis torched Poeltl . 

Personally I was not a fan of Sabonis after his 1st season or anything.  He shot fts at 66 percent from the ft line, hesitant to even shoot the mid range.   His post moves were very mechanical.   He was a mobile 6'10 of that worked hard.   Nothing stood out. His stats especially

But this past season, he couldn't be ignored.   His shooting noticeably improved.  Even shooting 3s at 36 percent.  He touched up on his post play (dad prob hammered him).  He was stronger, quicker .  Looked much more confident .   Yes his ceiling is not high, but he reached it (rebounding), post play (I think a good part of it will translate at the next level) and he will improve his shooting even further (bc indication is he gets better).

How do you know that "he will improve his shooting even further (bc indication is he gets better)"?

[ederson]

Could someone please give us a link of the games Bender dominated his peers?

Cause i honestly cannot find youth games where Bender appeared so much better then the rest of his crop.

[Tr1boy]

Sabonis flashing his rebounding skills. Very quality rebounder

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fk5kHLiN9U

Still pounding your Binky ? 

Honestly, if sabonis had dominated bender we would never hear the end of it from you.

I don't dig up stuff from 2-3 years ago.  Alot can change

Poeltl apparently took it to Sabonis last time they met at international play.   Yet recently(2 months ago)Sabonis torched Poeltl . 

Personally I was not a fan of Sabonis after his 1st season or anything.  He shot fts at 66 percent from the ft line, hesitant to even shoot the mid range.   His post moves were very mechanical.   He was a mobile 6'10 of that worked hard.   Nothing stood out. His stats especially

But this past season, he couldn't be ignored.   His shooting noticeably improved.  Even shooting 3s at 36 percent.  He touched up on his post play (dad prob hammered him).  He was stronger, quicker .  Looked much more confident .   Yes his ceiling is not high, but he reached it (rebounding), post play (I think a good part of it will translate at the next level) and he will improve his shooting even further (bc indication is he gets better).

How do you know that "he will improve his shooting even further (bc indication is he gets better)"?

compare his freshman to soph year.   The difference is noticeable in every way.   What didn't change was his "attitude" , "getting nose dirty" to go after the ball.   What did change was , he got stronger /quicker,  post play improved, jump shot.  Passing numbers improved.   Without him Gonzaga could not function.   

Bc it won't be exactly the same in the NBA, he will need to rely a little more on his jump shot.   I bet that he will be even more comfortable shooting the ball.  I hope he doesn't resort to just shooting the ball though, because his play around the post is solid

[TwinTower14]

Could someone please give us a link of the games Bender dominated his peers?

Cause i honestly cannot find youth games where Bender appeared so much better then the rest of his crop.

Did you watch the link in this thread? At age 16, he threw up a stat line of 34/14 and his team won by 20. If that's not dominating then I don't know what is?

[Ilikesports17]

Is anyone actually comparing the two?

I understand the experts dont know everything and there is a lot of group think involved, but Ive yet to see a single one put Bender below or even with Sabonis. They are different level prospects from what I can tell. Taking Bender at 3 may be a bad idea. Taking Sabonis at 3 IS a bad idea.

[number_n9ne]

We call this a rationalization where I work .

Rationalisation happens in two steps:

A decision, action, judgement is made for a given reason, or no (known) reason at all.
A rationalisation is performed, constructing a seemingly good or logical reason, as an attempt to justify the act after the fact (for oneself or others).

His stats are not due to politics, keep telling yourself that.   When has Nike ever tried to suppress a player?   Never.   They want them to play so they can sell shoes.   

Do you even know what the sneaker issue is? Here I'll help you!

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=dragan+bender+nike+adidas

You want to click on the second link!

News broke on the first day of the tournament that Bender was out, due to the fact that he's signed to an exclusive endorsement contract with adidas, and the Croatian federation was taking a hard-line stance on its players wearing Jordans or Nikes, in order not to jeopardize its own lucrative contract with Jordan Brand.

[Tr1boy]

And if bender at 15 was outplaying guys a year older etc. Why isn't he able to do that against 20 year olds in his so called pro league?  And this pro league considered at par with the dleague (talent wise)

The coach wants to win. So the young but ultra talented bender sits.  Bc the draft is coming up, his agent wants bender to sit(this is an ridiculous excuse btw).  Bc bender is... he can't play.   So many excuses.  Bottom line is the Celts are going to be an experimental ground for benders development.    Experimental grounds he can add 20-25 more pounds into that skinny body.  Just be aware of the risk

So you want to waste a top 3 pick on a player that we could simply trade down for?

I don't get the hype on Sabonis. I do like him, and believe he'll be an excellent player with high role player-Allstar caliber, but he is definitely not worth a top 3 pick in my book. Bender is justifiable, because of how young he is, and the physical gifts he has, plus the professionalism Bender is able to demonstrate.

Let me ask you.  If Sabonis is going 8th or 9th (very good chance he will join his Lithuanian country man Valenciunas)  and ppl have said there is no clear standout from 3-10,  then....

CBS even has said there are 8 prospects danny wants him to look at for the nets pick (does not include ingram/simmons).    Who knows if Sabonis is one of these 8 prospects.  But if he is, and after interviews/workouts they will like him, well don't be suprised if they reach or trade down a few spots for him

If he is not part of this list, then he is not. I have zero expectations he will be a celtic. Bc he won't be available by 16.  As we seen last season, it's difficult to move up in a draft unless it's perfect for everyone.

[Tr1boy]

You know who Bender reminds me of.  Even his lack of stats to go by (both players had incomplete stats to go by prior to the draft)

Nikoloz Tskitishvili - 5th overall pick - Denver Nuggets (and we all know what happened to him)

2002 Scouting Report:

Strengths: Offensively there isn’t much Tskitishvili can’t do he is a versatile scorer capable of shooting from the outside or slashing in the lane ... Has great size for his position at 6-11 there isn’t many small forwards he won’t be able to shoot over ... Prefers to set-up his offense by receiving the ball out on the perimeter where he is a threat to penetrate or shoot from 18 ft out ... Due to his long arms he has shown the ability to be a adequate shot-blocker thanks to his long arms and decent leaping ability ... Runs the floor extremely well and is blessed with great agility ... Has excellent court vision and shows some above average passing skills ... Handles the ball very well for a player his size and is decently quick when doing a move off the dribble ... Owns great touch around the basket when getting the ball down low ... Tskitishvili is a competent rebounder thanks to his solid leaping ability and positioning when under the boards ... Plays well when under pressure due to his confidence and competitiveness ... Has loads of potential something which will drive his stock come draft day ... Solid free throw shooter ... Unlike many young players his age his is blessed with a great sense of the game that simply can’t be taught .

Tskitishvili highlights  (7 ft player,  nice wingspan,  Mobile, Not quick off the ground nor can jump high like bender, mechanical jump shot, can drive in/pass)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsdUPklY5hc

[HomerSapien]

It's really too bad that Bender wasn't able to play for Croatia last summer at Eurobasket.  Prior to that tourney, every International competition, basketball camp, etc. where he played against older peers he excelled and appeared to have a massive upward trajectory.  But unfortunately, because of Adidas vs. Nike politics and limited playing time on his new pro team we have very limited film on him from the last year.

We call this a rationalization where I work .

Rationalisation happens in two steps:

A decision, action, judgement is made for a given reason, or no (known) reason at all.
A rationalisation is performed, constructing a seemingly good or logical reason, as an attempt to justify the act after the fact (for oneself or others).

His stats are not due to politics, keep telling yourself that.   When has Nike ever tried to suppress a player?   Never.   They want them to play so they can sell shoes.   

For me Sabonis seems to top out at fringe NBA starter.  Bender, on the other hand, because of his unique physical profile (size combined with agile movement) seems like he could be something special if the cards are played right.  For that reason, I'd be willing to risk him being a total bust and draft him at #3.

I also don't quite know why these two are being compared to each other since they fall at significantly different parts of the draft.  The Celtics could easily select both if they wanted.

I kind of hope we work out these two the same day.   It would settle much of the debate.   Guys who jump 27" are special in that they are trying to play an athletes sport when they are not.   Lateral movement is great, but he is so weak and can't jump that he will not be able to do much with it.   Porzingas is a way better athlete.  He also did not hide and why is Bender hiding from the  combine tests?

BECAUSE IT WOULD HURT HIS STOCK.

Check your facts. Sneaker wars can and have affected players ability to play in games/ tournaments.

From Dragan Bender's DX profile:

Official: Dragan Bender Will Not Play at the U19 World Championship
June 26, 2015
Editor's Note: June 27th Update

David Hein of FIBA.com confirms that Dragan Bender will not play at the U19 World Championship. From FIBA's story:

"Vladimr Vanjak, Croatia's head of delegation at the tournament in Heraklion (Crete), Greece, confirmed to FIBA.com that Bender will be leaving Greece on Sunday.

He said: "The fact is that Bender denied [refused] to play in the Jordan Brand shoes but our Federation has a contract with Jordan and everybody has to play in Jordan Brand. He denied to do that but he didn't say anything before coming here. That's the problem. I talked with my Secretary General and other people who made the decision because we have a very serious contract with Jordan. If he cannot play in Jordan Brand, he cannot play. That's it."

Original Story from June 26

Surprising development in Croatia, as potential Top-5 draft pick in 2016, Dragan Bender, is unlikely to play at the U19 World Championship in Crete, which starts this weekend.

According to Bender's agent, Maurizio Balducci, the Croatian Basketball Federation has told Bender that he will be unable to represent his country if he refuses to wear Jordan Brand sneakers while he is on the court. Bender has signed an exclusive deal with Adidas, which bars him from doing so under the terms of the contract.

“They said to me, if Dragan doesn't use Jordan Brand shoes, he can't play,” Bender's agent wrote to us today. “We are very sad. He wanted to defend the colors of his country, but it looks like commercial reasons are above sport reasons. I am so sad for all his teammates his coach. They did a great job during the past three weeks (preparing for the tournament).”


Tonči Vlašić / dubrovacki.hr


Croatia is considered the main contenders to win gold at the U19 Championship, along with the defending champions, USA, who are led by Arizona head coach Sean Miller and a number of highly touted high school players such as Harry Giles, Jayson Tatum and Josh Jackson. Croatia is scheduled to play the US on Sunday in the group stage. Bender had spent most of the month of June training with the U19 team in preparation for the tournament, including playing multiple exhibition games over the past few weeks, where he wore Adidas shoes, which he's trained in exclusively the last few years.

Bender entered into his relationship with Adidas in September of 2013, about a year prior to Nike and Jordan Brand signing an exclusive 11 year deal with the Croatian national team (at every level, including all men and women's teams), as detailed by David Hein at the time.

Zeljko Draksic, the Croatian Basketball Federation HKS secretary general, told Hein at the time that “all our young players…will be under control of the Nike or Jordan brand. All of our coaches who would like to study or be in the United States or learn or something like that, everything will be under control of the Jordan Brand. If they are under our federations, they must be in this way for the Jordan Brand.”

Bender is coming off a very strong showing at the Adidas EuroCamp in Treviso earlier this month, which was attended by over a hundred NBA executives, cementing his status as a lottery caliber prospect. The 7-footer has a terrific skill-level for a player his size, with great versatility on both ends of the floor. He will play for Maccabi Tel Aviv's senior team this upcoming season, which will include an exhibition game against Armani Milan at Madison Square Garden in New York City on October 4th.

By NO means do I think he is a lock to be great, but I will feel comfortable (and excited) if the Celtics do take him at #3 because I trust that they have more information available to them that I do as a fan that makes them think he can realize the upside that has been reported about him.

[coffee425]

You know who Bender reminds me of.  Even his lack of stats to go by (both players had incomplete stats to go by prior to the draft)

Nikoloz Tskitishvili - 5th overall pick - Denver Nuggets (and we all know what happened to him)

2002 Scouting Report:

Strengths: Offensively there isn’t much Tskitishvili can’t do he is a versatile scorer capable of shooting from the outside or slashing in the lane ... Has great size for his position at 6-11 there isn’t many small forwards he won’t be able to shoot over ... Prefers to set-up his offense by receiving the ball out on the perimeter where he is a threat to penetrate or shoot from 18 ft out ... Due to his long arms he has shown the ability to be a adequate shot-blocker thanks to his long arms and decent leaping ability ... Runs the floor extremely well and is blessed with great agility ... Has excellent court vision and shows some above average passing skills ... Handles the ball very well for a player his size and is decently quick when doing a move off the dribble ... Owns great touch around the basket when getting the ball down low ... Tskitishvili is a competent rebounder thanks to his solid leaping ability and positioning when under the boards ... Plays well when under pressure due to his confidence and competitiveness ... Has loads of potential something which will drive his stock come draft day ... Solid free throw shooter ... Unlike many young players his age his is blessed with a great sense of the game that simply can’t be taught .

Tskitishvili highlights  (7 ft player,  nice wingspan,  Mobile, Not quick off the ground nor can jump high like bender, mechanical jump shot, can drive in/pass)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsdUPklY5hc

I have the same concerns, but there are a few differences with this situation.

• Modern basketball wouldve been much better for Nikoloz than when he was drafted
• Dragan has been praised for his defensive agility; dont see that during Nikoloz

[Ilikesports17]

You know who Bender reminds me of.  Even his lack of stats to go by (both players had incomplete stats to go by prior to the draft)

Nikoloz Tskitishvili - 5th overall pick - Denver Nuggets (and we all know what happened to him)

2002 Scouting Report:

Strengths: Offensively there isn’t much Tskitishvili can’t do he is a versatile scorer capable of shooting from the outside or slashing in the lane ... Has great size for his position at 6-11 there isn’t many small forwards he won’t be able to shoot over ... Prefers to set-up his offense by receiving the ball out on the perimeter where he is a threat to penetrate or shoot from 18 ft out ... Due to his long arms he has shown the ability to be a adequate shot-blocker thanks to his long arms and decent leaping ability ... Runs the floor extremely well and is blessed with great agility ... Has excellent court vision and shows some above average passing skills ... Handles the ball very well for a player his size and is decently quick when doing a move off the dribble ... Owns great touch around the basket when getting the ball down low ... Tskitishvili is a competent rebounder thanks to his solid leaping ability and positioning when under the boards ... Plays well when under pressure due to his confidence and competitiveness ... Has loads of potential something which will drive his stock come draft day ... Solid free throw shooter ... Unlike many young players his age his is blessed with a great sense of the game that simply can’t be taught .

Tskitishvili highlights  (7 ft player,  nice wingspan,  Mobile, Not quick off the ground nor can jump high like bender, mechanical jump shot, can drive in/pass)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsdUPklY5hc

Nice find. That's certainly a bit concerning how similar the reports are.

However, you can't read too much into it because Pau Gasols scouting report is also eerily similar. Furthermore, that report you quoted lists work ethic and overconfidence as weaknesses and Bender seems to be the opposite. when comparing busts I would think the weaknesses are far more relevant than the strengths.

[Tr1boy]

You know who Bender reminds me of.  Even his lack of stats to go by (both players had incomplete stats to go by prior to the draft)

Nikoloz Tskitishvili - 5th overall pick - Denver Nuggets (and we all know what happened to him)

2002 Scouting Report:

Strengths: Offensively there isn’t much Tskitishvili can’t do he is a versatile scorer capable of shooting from the outside or slashing in the lane ... Has great size for his position at 6-11 there isn’t many small forwards he won’t be able to shoot over ... Prefers to set-up his offense by receiving the ball out on the perimeter where he is a threat to penetrate or shoot from 18 ft out ... Due to his long arms he has shown the ability to be a adequate shot-blocker thanks to his long arms and decent leaping ability ... Runs the floor extremely well and is blessed with great agility ... Has excellent court vision and shows some above average passing skills ... Handles the ball very well for a player his size and is decently quick when doing a move off the dribble ... Owns great touch around the basket when getting the ball down low ... Tskitishvili is a competent rebounder thanks to his solid leaping ability and positioning when under the boards ... Plays well when under pressure due to his confidence and competitiveness ... Has loads of potential something which will drive his stock come draft day ... Solid free throw shooter ... Unlike many young players his age his is blessed with a great sense of the game that simply can’t be taught .

Tskitishvili highlights  (7 ft player,  nice wingspan,  Mobile, Not quick off the ground nor can jump high like bender, mechanical jump shot, can drive in/pass)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsdUPklY5hc

I have the same concerns, but there are a few differences with this situation.

• Modern basketball wouldve been much better for Nikoloz than when he was drafted
• Dragan has been praised for his defensive agility; dont see that during Nikoloz

your 1st pt is a possibility