Poll

If you are Danny Ainge, which team has better trade assets?

2006-07 Celtics: Tony Allen, Ryan Gomes, Gerald Green, Al Jefferson, Kendrick Perkins, Leon Powe, Rajon Rondo, Sebastian Telfair, Delonte West
11 (61.1%)
2015-16 Celtics: Jared Sullinger, Tyler Zeller, Kelly Olynyk, Marcus Smart, James Young, Terry Rozier, RJ Hunter, Jae Crowder, Jordan Mickey
7 (38.9%)

Total Members Voted: 18

Author Topic: Stacking up the Celtics current LIVE assets against 2006-07  (Read 2326 times)

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Offline Surferdad

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The current Celtics roster has remarkable parallels to the 2006-2007 team: Lots of young players, and some of them have good upside potential.  Each team has one all-star to build around.

What I've done here is to list all players on each team with 3 years or less of experience.  (Please note I limited it to 9 players from each team, leaving out Kevin Pinkney and Allan Ray from the 06-07 team and John Holland from the 15-16 team.)  Other than draft picks, this is what Danny has/had to work with in making trades.  We all know about what he did in the summer of 2007.  Most Celtics fans would be very happy if he could do that again in the summer of 2016.

I know some folks will be critical of me leaving out draft picks as assets.  Selecting Jeff Green was a key step in acquiring Ray Allen.  Likewise, the NJ pick this year is going to be key, no doubt.  However, I just thought this would be a good starting point to discuss the young talent now and then, in a comparative way.

Another angle worth discussing here is head-to-head starting fives.  Here are my choices:

Rondo, West, Gomes, Jefferson, Perkins.  6th man=TAllen
vs.
Rozier, Smart, Crowder, Sullinger, Olynyk.  6th man= Zeller

As much as I LOVED Al Jefferson especially at the time, I give the edge to the current roster in a pickup game.  Better defense and better shooting.

Have at it, campers.

Re: Stacking up the Celtics current LIVE assets against 2006-07
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2016, 07:11:43 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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The current Celtics roster has remarkable parallels to the 2006-2007 team: Lots of young players, and some of them have good upside potential.  Each team has one all-star to build around.

What I've done here is to list all players on each team with 3 years or less of experience.  (Please note I limited it to 9 players from each team, leaving out Kevin Pinkney and Allan Ray from the 06-07 team and John Holland from the 15-16 team.)  Other than draft picks, this is what Danny has/had to work with in making trades.  We all know about what he did in the summer of 2007.  Most Celtics fans would be very happy if he could do that again in the summer of 2016.

I know some folks will be critical of me leaving out draft picks as assets.  Selecting Jeff Green was a key step in acquiring Ray Allen.  Likewise, the NJ pick this year is going to be key, no doubt.  However, I just thought this would be a good starting point to discuss the young talent now and then, in a comparative way.

Another angle worth discussing here is head-to-head starting fives.  Here are my choices:

Rondo, West, Gomes, Jefferson, Perkins.  6th man=TAllen
vs.
Rozier, Smart, Crowder, Sullinger, Olynyk.  6th man= Zeller

As much as I LOVED Al Jefferson especially at the time, I give the edge to the current roster in a pickup game.  Better defense and better shooting.

Have at it, campers.

To be honest I can't really answer this. It is kind of impossible to remember and isolate in my mind what the value and mindset was around the players from 2006-2007 without doing tons of research. Was Powe completely irrelevant at that point? Was Telfair fully exposed as no longer having any upside? Had it become apparent Green was not going to be a rotation player any time soon? How good was Delonte West, looking at that point? I think it is cool question and debate, but so hard to seperate their careers from that point to their value at a precise moment in time.

Re: Stacking up the Celtics current LIVE assets against 2006-07
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2016, 07:16:00 PM »

Offline alldaboston

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I think we have better assets now, but I don't remember how our guys in 2006-07 were valued.
I could very well see the Hawks... starting Taurean Prince at the 3, who is already better than Crowder, imo.

you vs. the guy she tells you not to worry about

Re: Stacking up the Celtics current LIVE assets against 2006-07
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2016, 07:26:42 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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I think we have better assets now, but I don't remember how our guys in 2006-07 were valued.
I appreciate the memory issues cited by the first two posters.  This is what I recall for the top-5 and how they actually turned out (IMO):

Rondo - Intriguing prospect that can't shoot.  He turned out to be a better pro than most expected.

West - Nice prospect, good defender, decent 3-pointer but not a lot of upside.  Met expectations as a pro.

Gomes - Good all round player, "glue guy", developing 3-pointer. Met expectations as a pro.

Jefferson - Huge prospect with the complete low-post offensive game.  Bit weak on defense.  Probably fell just a bit short of expectation as a pro.

Perkins - Great defender who couldn't shoot.  Classic "old school" big man. Met expectations as a pro.

Re: Stacking up the Celtics current LIVE assets against 2006-07
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2016, 07:32:39 PM »

Offline alldaboston

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I think we have better assets now, but I don't remember how our guys in 2006-07 were valued.
I appreciate the memory issues cited by the first two posters.  This is what I recall for the top-5 and how they actually turned out (IMO):

Rondo - Intriguing prospect that can't shoot.  He turned out to be a better pro than most expected.

West - Nice prospect, good defender, decent 3-pointer but not a lot of upside.  Met expectations as a pro.

Gomes - Good all round player, "glue guy", developing 3-pointer. Met expectations as a pro.

Jefferson - Huge prospect with the complete low-post offensive game.  Bit weak on defense.  Probably fell just a bit short of expectation as a pro.

Perkins - Great defender who couldn't shoot.  Classic "old school" big man. Met expectations as a pro.

Were TA, Green, and Telfair not in the top 5 over guys like Gomes or west? I was in like middle school or something during the 08 title run, so I didn't follow the Celtics as intensely as I do now. But from what I've read about that era, it seemed that Telfair and rondo were essentially competing for the main PG spot on the team, (though Danny sided with rondo in the end) which would imply that Telfair was also at least a solid prospect, no?
I could very well see the Hawks... starting Taurean Prince at the 3, who is already better than Crowder, imo.

you vs. the guy she tells you not to worry about

Re: Stacking up the Celtics current LIVE assets against 2006-07
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2016, 07:54:29 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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I think we have better assets now, but I don't remember how our guys in 2006-07 were valued.
I appreciate the memory issues cited by the first two posters.  This is what I recall for the top-5 and how they actually turned out (IMO):

Rondo - Intriguing prospect that can't shoot.  He turned out to be a better pro than most expected.

West - Nice prospect, good defender, decent 3-pointer but not a lot of upside.  Met expectations as a pro.

Gomes - Good all round player, "glue guy", developing 3-pointer. Met expectations as a pro.

Jefferson - Huge prospect with the complete low-post offensive game.  Bit weak on defense.  Probably fell just a bit short of expectation as a pro.

Perkins - Great defender who couldn't shoot.  Classic "old school" big man. Met expectations as a pro.

Were TA, Green, and Telfair not in the top 5 over guys like Gomes or west? I was in like middle school or something during the 08 title run, so I didn't follow the Celtics as intensely as I do now. But from what I've read about that era, it seemed that Telfair and rondo were essentially competing for the main PG spot on the team, (though Danny sided with rondo in the end) which would imply that Telfair was also at least a solid prospect, no?
Yeah, that's right, that is just my top-5, in retrospect.

Telfair was the starter for a while and came with all that NYC schoolyard hype.

Green was considered to have huge upside, maybe more than any other young player on that team.

TA was considered more-or-less on par with guys like Gomes and West in terms of upside.

Re: Stacking up the Celtics current LIVE assets against 2006-07
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2016, 08:11:07 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Sullinger is not an asset.

Perk and Big Al would have their way with Sully and KO.  I think PP would abuse Crowder.   I like our guards today better than the 06 ones though.


Re: Stacking up the Celtics current LIVE assets against 2006-07
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2016, 08:15:27 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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I think fans (and GMs) at the time were completely unsure of what to expect from Delonte, TA and RR.   I think it was hoped that DW and TA would become rotation players.  RR (I think) was presumed to have a higher ceiling -- younger and uniquely skilled as compared to DW and TA.    The prize for both today's and the 2006-7 teams had to be considered Al Jefferson.  From day one, Big Al was a big man with a rare offensive gift.  I don't think any of today's tradable youth compare to Big Al in terms of value in a deal.   People were seeing 20/10 in Big Al's future during the 2006-7 season.   
But if you consider the depth of projected rotation talent, the current roster gets the nod:  Jae, Sully, KO, Smart, Rozier, I think all project as solid players (or better) and many are high on Hunter and Mikey as well.   Perk and GG were in 2006 considered a "project" and a "possible bust".  Gomes was probably in the possible rotation player category -- I wouldn't say his value then was any higher than Zeller's is now.   


Re: Stacking up the Celtics current LIVE assets against 2006-07
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2016, 08:25:55 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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Current version is better. At the time Rondo was consider a promising player, not a future all-star. Pierce only played 47 games and his value was at all all-time low while he was in prime. So the roster now might not be sexy, but it has core pieces signed to team friendly/rookie scale deals and the  presence of all our future picks, particularly Brooklyn's, can't be overstated.

Re: Stacking up the Celtics current LIVE assets against 2006-07
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2016, 08:31:33 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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Sullinger is not an asset.

Perk and Big Al would have their way with Sully and KO.  I think PP would abuse Crowder.   I like our guards today better than the 06 ones though.
No you have to leave PP out of the equation, only players with 3 years or less experience: YOUNG ASSETS.

Re: Stacking up the Celtics current LIVE assets against 2006-07
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2016, 08:36:49 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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I think fans (and GMs) at the time were completely unsure of what to expect from Delonte, TA and RR.   I think it was hoped that DW and TA would become rotation players.  RR (I think) was presumed to have a higher ceiling -- younger and uniquely skilled as compared to DW and TA.    The prize for both today's and the 2006-7 teams had to be considered Al Jefferson.  From day one, Big Al was a big man with a rare offensive gift.  I don't think any of today's tradable youth compare to Big Al in terms of value in a deal.   People were seeing 20/10 in Big Al's future during the 2006-7 season.   
But if you consider the depth of projected rotation talent, the current roster gets the nod:  Jae, Sully, KO, Smart, Rozier, I think all project as solid players (or better) and many are high on Hunter and Mikey as well.   Perk and GG were in 2006 considered a "project" and a "possible bust".  Gomes was probably in the possible rotation player category -- I wouldn't say his value then was any higher than Zeller's is now.
Bingo on all counts, so TP for you.  Al Jefferson was a far better prospect than anyone in either team.  He was a better prospect than Marcus Smart is now.  So while I agree that the current team is deeper, what really matters is the top talent.  I think the current team wins in a scrimmage, but if you are Danny Ainge you were in a better position to make a BIG trade in 2007 than now.

Re: Stacking up the Celtics current LIVE assets against 2006-07
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2016, 08:50:59 PM »

Offline incoherent

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I remember the 2006-07 season very fondly.  It was the first season of me living in my own place and I watched probably 80 full games that year. 

Rondo showed he was better then Telfair from day one,  it just took a while for the Organizatin to accept their failure of getting Telfair.

Gerald Green had some awesome stretches and looked like a very very promising player.  He had a string of games where he was getting 20 points a night to go along with some crazy athleticism.

West looked like a steal and played hard on both ends.

Big Al looked like a corner stone.

Pierce came back for a bit and showed us all why he was getting paid 20 mil.

Wally was pretty solid.

Gnomes was super efficient and looked like a steal.

The one thing I really remember about that team is how many close games we lost.  That team battled hard every night despite losing so many games.



Re: Stacking up the Celtics current LIVE assets against 2006-07
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2016, 10:02:57 PM »

Offline loco_91

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We have way better assets now if you count draft picks. Otherwise it's pretty close, but I'll give it to the '07 team.

Re: Stacking up the Celtics current LIVE assets against 2006-07
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2016, 10:06:21 PM »

Offline Granath

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I'm discounting Crowder from the list as he's been in the league for 4 years. So has Zeller and Sullinger. In '06-'07 Perk had 4 years under his belt. So looking at the real comparison:

2006-07 Celtics: Tony Allen, Ryan Gomes, Gerald Green, Al Jefferson, Leon Powe, Rajon Rondo, Sebastian Telfair, Delonte West

2015-16 Celtics: Kelly Olynyk, Marcus Smart, James Young, Terry Rozier, RJ Hunter, Jordan Mickey

Jefferson kills Olynyk. That's not even close.
You'd have to give Allen even odds with Smart (though I like Smart more)
Young, Rozier, Hunter and Mickey have potential but then again so did Rondo, West, Green, Gomes and Powe.

So the difference is Big Al and that's a big difference. Big Al was considered perhaps the best up-and-coming young big man in the game. He was a 22 year old who had just finished putting up 16/11 in his first real heavy action. His splits continued to show growth as well as he put up 20/11 in the last month. He was anticipated to be a star (and until he blew out his knee he was). There isn't anyone on the current roster who has demonstrated that much potential on the court.

Thus '06-07 gets the nod with the 3 years and under statement and truthfully it's not all that close. What's different is the mid-level talent. The '06-'07 team had PP. This team has IT, Crowder, Bradley (Sully and Turner as well but their contracts make them less valuable); all of whom are either just entering their prime or well within it; all whom are exceptionally cheap.

When you add those in, plus Brad, plus the picks it's quite obvious that this team is in a better situation - both currently and with the potential for future growth - than that team was.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2016, 10:11:41 PM by Granath »
Jaylen Brown will be an All Star in the next 5 years.

Re: Stacking up the Celtics current LIVE assets against 2006-07
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2016, 10:45:24 PM »

Offline jambr380

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I think fans (and GMs) at the time were completely unsure of what to expect from Delonte, TA and RR.   I think it was hoped that DW and TA would become rotation players.  RR (I think) was presumed to have a higher ceiling -- younger and uniquely skilled as compared to DW and TA.    The prize for both today's and the 2006-7 teams had to be considered Al Jefferson.  From day one, Big Al was a big man with a rare offensive gift.  I don't think any of today's tradable youth compare to Big Al in terms of value in a deal.   People were seeing 20/10 in Big Al's future during the 2006-7 season.   
But if you consider the depth of projected rotation talent, the current roster gets the nod:  Jae, Sully, KO, Smart, Rozier, I think all project as solid players (or better) and many are high on Hunter and Mikey as well.   Perk and GG were in 2006 considered a "project" and a "possible bust".  Gomes was probably in the possible rotation player category -- I wouldn't say his value then was any higher than Zeller's is now.
Bingo on all counts, so TP for you.  Al Jefferson was a far better prospect than anyone in either team.  He was a better prospect than Marcus Smart is now.  So while I agree that the current team is deeper, what really matters is the top talent.  I think the current team wins in a scrimmage, but if you are Danny Ainge you were in a better position to make a BIG trade in 2007 than now.

Yeah, tp, all that matters in this discussion is Big Al. We have nothing even close to him on the current roster. Add in Green and Rondo and those player assets were pretty strong. I was actually surprised we needed to give up Gomes - thought his ceiling was pretty set and he would have fit in well with our championship team.

Our overall assets are probably better today, though - the three BKN picks, the Memphis pick, even the Dallas pick. We are swimming in draft picks and that matters for future positioning as well.