What would the ripple effect have been if we'd beaten Miami in 2012?

[the TRUTH]

So many layers to this. Pierce hits that unbelievable dagger to clinch Game 5 in Miami, and then the Celtics just get destroyed in Game 6 at the Garden. I really think if we'd kept that game close in the 4th quarter, Miami would have wilted under the pressure. But they started off hot and were able to play as frontrunners, and we never made a game of it.

Anyway, what changes both with the Celtics and leaguewide if Boston wins Game 6 or Game 7?

Here's my take:

- That Celtics team had a ton of heart, but the bench was pretty thin/inconsistent at that point. Couple that with OKC having home court, and I'd have to favor the Thunder in that series. I'd say OKC wins in 6. They were one of the few teams in the league at that point that had a point guard that could match Rondo's toughness and athleticism on both ends of the floor. I don't think Pierce could cover Durant. Could Garnett? Possibly, but then he's probably worn out on the offensive end. Without 20+ points per game from KG, Boston would've been in trouble. Tough matchup for the C's.

- I think Ray Allen still leaves, but he doesn't go to Miami. Maybe he goes to the Clippers or another contender out West, but very few C's fans would've had a problem with that decision.

- Without Ray Allen, Miami likely doesn't beat San Antonio in the 2013 Finals, assuming they still make it that far.

- Does Miami break up the Big 3? The first year (2010-11), you could argue that they lost to Dallas because the team just hadn't meshed yet. But if, the following year, the Heat didn't even make it out of the East and had lost 4 straight games (or 4 out of 5) to an aging Celtics team, Pat Riley might have decided that something needed to change. However, what could they have done? I can't see them trading Wade or LeBron, and what would they have gotten in return for Bosh? Would it have been enough to entice Miami to make a move? Would that move have put them over the top?

- Durant likely doesn't even consider leaving OKC in 2016 because he already won his title with the Thunder back in 2012.

- What does LeBron do in 2014? If the Heat still hadn't won a title by then, does he decide to stay? Does he return to Cleveland anyway? Does he go somewhere else? I think he would've stayed in Miami.

- Pierce's shot to clinch Game 5 against the Heat becomes even more legendary, as it was pivotal in a series that Boston won.

[MJohnnyboy]

Lots and lots of what ifs when it came to the 2012 season, especially when it came to the Celtics. First there was this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blhkMWa55dM

People forget the vetoed CP3 trade also hurt the Celtics. The Celtics had a deal in place to sign David West on the condition that they get Jermaine O'Neal off the cap. The Mavericks were going to take JO off the Celtics' hands with the trade exception they got from Tyson Chandler bolting for NY but they backed out last second when they heard that Lamar Odom could have been had at the same price. After that the Celtics couldn't find another taker for O'Neal and West spurned them for the Pacers. Imagine David West at the starting 4 instead of Bass who would have come off the bench. (Also a sidenote: The Celtics had an unprotected pick from the Clippers from the Jeff Green trade that would have been better if CP3 hadn't been traded there)

There is also the Jeff Green aortic aneurysm (imagine him instead of Mickael Pietrus), the Chris Wilcox heart ailment (imagine him instead of Ryan Hollins), and the Avery Bradley shoulder injuries (Imagine him instead of Keyon Dooling). Had everything gone the Celtics way, they would have a had rotation of Rondo/Bradley/Pierce/West/Garnett/Ray/Green/Bass/Wilcox. That would have been a terrific rotation that was foiled by unfortunate circumstances and untimely injuries. I think that team beats Miami in a 7 game series and could have won the championship.

If that had happened, I think the Celtics core stays in tact for another season or two. I think Ray stays or at the very least, doesn't leave for the Heat. Lebron may have never won a ring with Miami and the Heat could have broken up their big 3. Maybe Pierce, Ray, and KG all ride into the sunset together.

However, we also have to remember that was the year Derrick Rose tore his ACL and the Bulls were the number 1 seed and that Philly also pushed the Celtics to the brink of elimination the round before that so some things did go our way in 2012. I also think the strike-shortened season aided the Celtics when it came to fatigue. If it had been the full 82, the Celtics could have been more exhausted come playoff time.

To go along with the OKC narrative, the real question is would they have traded James Harden if they had won in 2012? Pretty sure that would have been even more infuriating for the fans if they had done that after winning the title. If they hadn't, OKC could very well have a very tight rivalry with the Warriors right now.

[bdm860]

I personally like to dream that the C's would have won it all in 2012 if they got past the Heat.  OKC wasn't mentally tough enough to handle our vets.

Ray still probably goes to Miami.  If losing to the Heat didn't stop him from going to Miami, I'm not sure beating them would.  If anything it might make the decision easier, "they haven't won yet, they need me."  So they probably still beat San Antonio in '13.

Also, LeBron having won one title, still leaves Miami in the summer of '14.  Siimilar to the Ray Allen situation, only winning 1 probably makes it easier to go back to Cleveland, it's not like he's leaving a dynasty.

But say the Thunder did win in '12, unless that convinced them to keep James Harden or helped them add other vets, then Durant's decision this summer probably remains the same.  2012 was ages ago, they haven't been close to a championship again since.  The real question is, do the Thunder keep James Harden if they win in '12?  Now how would that alter things.  (edit - and I see MJohnnyboy has the same thoughts on Harden seconds earlier, TP).

[celticsclay]

I personally like to dream that the C's would have won it all in 2012 if they got past the Heat.  OKC wasn't mentally tough enough to handle our vets.

Ray still probably goes to Miami.  If losing to the Heat didn't stop him from going to Miami, I'm not sure beating them would.  If anything it might make the decision easier, "they haven't won yet, they need me."  So they probably still beat San Antonio in '13.

Also, LeBron having won one title, still leaves Miami in the summer of '14.  Siimilar to the Ray Allen situation, only winning 1 probably makes it easier to go back to Cleveland, it's not like he's leaving a dynasty.

But say the Thunder did win in '12, unless that convinced them to keep James Harden or helped them add other vets, then Durant's decision this summer probably remains the same.  2012 was ages ago, they haven't been close to a championship again since.  The real question is, do the Thunder keep James Harden if they win in '12?  Now how would that alter things.  (edit - and I see MJohnnyboy has the same thoughts on Harden seconds earlier, TP).

this whole thread is super depressing. That game 6 is probably one of the games that stands out as the most depressing in all my times following the celtics. It was rooting for aging players I loved against a gang of players I hated, specifically wade and lebron. Still remember watching it in a bar and being devastated.

[the TRUTH]

Lots and lots of what ifs when it came to the 2012 season, especially when it came to the Celtics. First there was this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blhkMWa55dM

People forget the vetoed CP3 trade also hurt the Celtics. The Celtics had a deal in place to sign David West on the condition that they get Jermaine O'Neal off the cap. The Mavericks were going to take JO off the Celtics' hands with the trade exception they got from Tyson Chandler bolting for NY but they backed out last second when they heard that Lamar Odom could have been had at the same price. After that the Celtics couldn't find another taker for O'Neal and West spurned them for the Pacers. Imagine David West at the starting 4 instead of Bass who would have come off the bench. (Also a sidenote: The Celtics had an unprotected pick from the Clippers from the Jeff Green trade that would have been better if CP3 hadn't been traded there)

There is also the Jeff Green aortic aneurysm (imagine him instead of Mickael Pietrus), the Chris Wilcox heart ailment (imagine him instead of Ryan Hollins), and the Avery Bradley shoulder injuries (Imagine him instead of Keyon Dooling). Had everything gone the Celtics way, they would have a had rotation of Rondo/Bradley/Pierce/West/Garnett/Ray/Green/Bass/Wilcox. That would have been a terrific rotation that was foiled by unfortunate circumstances and untimely injuries. I think that team beats Miami in a 7 game series and could have won the championship.

If that had happened, I think the Celtics core stays in tact for another season or two. I think Ray stays or at the very least, doesn't leave for the Heat. Lebron may have never won a ring with Miami and the Heat could have broken up their big 3. Maybe Pierce, Ray, and KG all ride into the sunset together.

However, we also have to remember that was the year Derrick Rose tore his ACL and the Bulls were the number 1 seed and that Philly also pushed the Celtics to the brink of elimination the round before that so some things did go our way in 2012. I also think the strike-shortened season aided the Celtics when it came to fatigue. If it had been the full 82, the Celtics could have been more exhausted come playoff time.

To go along with the OKC narrative, the real question is would they have traded James Harden if they had won in 2012? Pretty sure that would have been even more infuriating for the fans if they had done that after winning the title. If they hadn't, OKC could very well have a very tight rivalry with the Warriors right now.

TP for the reply. You make a lot of great points about how good that Celtics team could've been if it'd been fully healthy and possibly added David West. I think that team wins the title at full strength, and I don't know if anyone takes them to 7 games.

Good point about what happened that year to the Bulls. The 2012 C's roster as it was might have had a tough time beating the Bulls at full strength in a series. We definitely dodged a bullet by playing Philly instead.

The only counter I can think of to your statement about the shortened season helping Boston is that (IIRC) the schedule had a lot more back-to-backs and 4 games in 5 nights that year in order to fit all those games in. Maybe that wore the C's down more than a traditional 82 game schedule would? Not sure - could see it going either way.

I honestly completely forgot that that's when Harden was dealt. My impression was that, similar to Tony Allen in 2010, he wanted a more prominent role than being in the shadows of Durant and Westbrook, so I think he still tries to orchestrate a trade somehow. But then again, winning a title can change everything for some people.

[bdm860]

I honestly completely forgot that that's when Harden was dealt. My impression was that, similar to Tony Allen in 2010, he wanted a more prominent role than being in the shadows of Durant and Westbrook, so I think he still tries to orchestrate a trade somehow. But then again, winning a title can change everything for some people.

At least publicly Harden was saying he wanted to stay with the Thunder, he just didn't want to take a bargain deal to do it.

http://dailythunder.com/headlines/james-harden-wants-the-max/

[the TRUTH]

I personally like to dream that the C's would have won it all in 2012 if they got past the Heat.  OKC wasn't mentally tough enough to handle our vets.

Ray still probably goes to Miami.  If losing to the Heat didn't stop him from going to Miami, I'm not sure beating them would.  If anything it might make the decision easier, "they haven't won yet, they need me."  So they probably still beat San Antonio in '13.

Also, LeBron having won one title, still leaves Miami in the summer of '14.  Siimilar to the Ray Allen situation, only winning 1 probably makes it easier to go back to Cleveland, it's not like he's leaving a dynasty.

But say the Thunder did win in '12, unless that convinced them to keep James Harden or helped them add other vets, then Durant's decision this summer probably remains the same.  2012 was ages ago, they haven't been close to a championship again since.  The real question is, do the Thunder keep James Harden if they win in '12?  Now how would that alter things.  (edit - and I see MJohnnyboy has the same thoughts on Harden seconds earlier, TP).

TP for the reply. I definitely think the C's could have beaten OKC that year. You're 100% correct that that Celtics team was very mentally tough, arguably the toughest team mentally in the league. That was also OKC's first trip to the Finals, whereas that would've been the third for that core group of Celtics.

As for Ray's decision, it might have depended on what changes the Heat made that offseason. Would Ray still view himself as the missing piece that could get them over the top?

I agree that if LeBron had only won one title in Miami, he still returns to Cleveland. At that point, in his mind his legacy had been cemented and he'd gotten the monkey off his back, so he could return to Cleveland and try to become an all-time folk hero in Northeast Ohio. However, if he hadn't won a title in Miami heading into the 2014 offseason, I think he either stays in Miami or signs with another readymade contender.

I think a lot of young stars in this league realize once they hit their prime, that if they never win a title, that'll diminish their individual accomplishments. So winning at least one title is a huge priority for all of those guys. Once they've won at least one, I think they can relax in a sense and just pick/stay with the team where they're the happiest, without necessarily worrying about whether it's the best roster in the league. It would've been interesting to see if winning the title in '12 would've changed Durant's mindset this summer.

[the TRUTH]

I personally like to dream that the C's would have won it all in 2012 if they got past the Heat.  OKC wasn't mentally tough enough to handle our vets.

Ray still probably goes to Miami.  If losing to the Heat didn't stop him from going to Miami, I'm not sure beating them would.  If anything it might make the decision easier, "they haven't won yet, they need me."  So they probably still beat San Antonio in '13.

Also, LeBron having won one title, still leaves Miami in the summer of '14.  Siimilar to the Ray Allen situation, only winning 1 probably makes it easier to go back to Cleveland, it's not like he's leaving a dynasty.

But say the Thunder did win in '12, unless that convinced them to keep James Harden or helped them add other vets, then Durant's decision this summer probably remains the same.  2012 was ages ago, they haven't been close to a championship again since.  The real question is, do the Thunder keep James Harden if they win in '12?  Now how would that alter things.  (edit - and I see MJohnnyboy has the same thoughts on Harden seconds earlier, TP).

this whole thread is super depressing. That game 6 is probably one of the games that stands out as the most depressing in all my times following the celtics. It was rooting for aging players I loved against a gang of players I hated, specifically wade and lebron. Still remember watching it in a bar and being devastated.

I agree - that was an awful loss. The only thing that made me feel better is that I still felt deep down that we'd find a way to win Game 7. Losing that series hurt big time. Close to the same level of pain I felt in 2010 when we lost to the Los Angeles Referees.

[the TRUTH]

I honestly completely forgot that that's when Harden was dealt. My impression was that, similar to Tony Allen in 2010, he wanted a more prominent role than being in the shadows of Durant and Westbrook, so I think he still tries to orchestrate a trade somehow. But then again, winning a title can change everything for some people.

At least publicly Harden was saying he wanted to stay with the Thunder, he just didn't want to take a bargain deal to do it.

http://dailythunder.com/headlines/james-harden-wants-the-max/

TP for the info. It'd be interesting to know how far over the luxury tax threshold the OKC ownership would've been willing to go in order to keep all three of those guys in town.

[Donoghus]

Celtics most likely get smoked in the Finals by OKC.  Horrible matchup for the Celtics there.

Besides that, I'm not sure how much ripple effect there would be.  I'm not sure it does anything to that MIA squad.  They would've still been the favorites to come out of the East in '12-13. 

I guess the Harden thing might be the biggest question.

[Celtic Fan Forever]

I personally like to dream that the C's would have won it all in 2012 if they got past the Heat.  OKC wasn't mentally tough enough to handle our vets.

Ray still probably goes to Miami.  If losing to the Heat didn't stop him from going to Miami, I'm not sure beating them would.  If anything it might make the decision easier, "they haven't won yet, they need me."  So they probably still beat San Antonio in '13.

Also, LeBron having won one title, still leaves Miami in the summer of '14.  Siimilar to the Ray Allen situation, only winning 1 probably makes it easier to go back to Cleveland, it's not like he's leaving a dynasty.

But say the Thunder did win in '12, unless that convinced them to keep James Harden or helped them add other vets, then Durant's decision this summer probably remains the same.  2012 was ages ago, they haven't been close to a championship again since.  The real question is, do the Thunder keep James Harden if they win in '12?  Now how would that alter things.  (edit - and I see MJohnnyboy has the same thoughts on Harden seconds earlier, TP).

this whole thread is super depressing. That game 6 is probably one of the games that stands out as the most depressing in all my times following the celtics. It was rooting for aging players I loved against a gang of players I hated, specifically wade and lebron. Still remember watching it in a bar and being devastated.

It's nothing compared to Game 7 of the 2010 Finals, which I've been unhealthily repressing for 6 years

[SparzWizard]

I personally like to dream that the C's would have won it all in 2012 if they got past the Heat.  OKC wasn't mentally tough enough to handle our vets.

Ray still probably goes to Miami.  If losing to the Heat didn't stop him from going to Miami, I'm not sure beating them would.  If anything it might make the decision easier, "they haven't won yet, they need me."  So they probably still beat San Antonio in '13.

Also, LeBron having won one title, still leaves Miami in the summer of '14.  Siimilar to the Ray Allen situation, only winning 1 probably makes it easier to go back to Cleveland, it's not like he's leaving a dynasty.

But say the Thunder did win in '12, unless that convinced them to keep James Harden or helped them add other vets, then Durant's decision this summer probably remains the same.  2012 was ages ago, they haven't been close to a championship again since.  The real question is, do the Thunder keep James Harden if they win in '12?  Now how would that alter things.  (edit - and I see MJohnnyboy has the same thoughts on Harden seconds earlier, TP).

this whole thread is super depressing. That game 6 is probably one of the games that stands out as the most depressing in all my times following the celtics. It was rooting for aging players I loved against a gang of players I hated, specifically wade and lebron. Still remember watching it in a bar and being devastated.

It's nothing compared to Game 7 of the 2010 Finals, which I've been unhealthily repressing for 6 years

Never bothered watching the recap of that miserable game. Not even on youtube, anywhere. Any time I see 2010 Finals Game 7, I immediately scroll away! 

[Donoghus]

I personally like to dream that the C's would have won it all in 2012 if they got past the Heat.  OKC wasn't mentally tough enough to handle our vets.

Ray still probably goes to Miami.  If losing to the Heat didn't stop him from going to Miami, I'm not sure beating them would.  If anything it might make the decision easier, "they haven't won yet, they need me."  So they probably still beat San Antonio in '13.

Also, LeBron having won one title, still leaves Miami in the summer of '14.  Siimilar to the Ray Allen situation, only winning 1 probably makes it easier to go back to Cleveland, it's not like he's leaving a dynasty.

But say the Thunder did win in '12, unless that convinced them to keep James Harden or helped them add other vets, then Durant's decision this summer probably remains the same.  2012 was ages ago, they haven't been close to a championship again since.  The real question is, do the Thunder keep James Harden if they win in '12?  Now how would that alter things.  (edit - and I see MJohnnyboy has the same thoughts on Harden seconds earlier, TP).

this whole thread is super depressing. That game 6 is probably one of the games that stands out as the most depressing in all my times following the celtics. It was rooting for aging players I loved against a gang of players I hated, specifically wade and lebron. Still remember watching it in a bar and being devastated.

It's nothing compared to Game 7 of the 2010 Finals, which I've been unhealthily repressing for 6 years

Have never watched a replay of it.  Refuse to.

[SHAQATTACK]

christ almighty...I need glasses .....I thought ripple was xipple when I glanced ..