Whiteside = any credit?

[byennie]

With Bosh out, if the heat reach the ECF, does "net negative" Whiteside get a little more credit?

I understand he doesn't pass and he's a potential head case, but at what point does the idea that he's not valuable on the court come to a stop? He rates elite on BOTH ends of the court, and easily outperforms his own teammates on advanced stats.

Blocked shots - 1st
True shooting % - 4th
Rebounding % - 2nd
Defensive rating - 1st
Offensive rating - 16th
Win shares - 11th
Win shares/48 - 7th

I understand there are some caveats, but at what point does being the best player statistically on a 48 win team, with playoff success minus Bosh tell us something?

[celticsclay]

With Bosh out, if the heat reach the ECF, does "net negative" Whiteside get a little more credit?

I understand he doesn't pass and he's a potential head case, but at what point does the idea that he's not valuable on the court come to a stop? He rates elite on BOTH ends of the court, and easily outperforms his own teammates on advanced stats.

Blocked shots - 1st
True shooting % - 4th
Rebounding % - 2nd
Defensive rating - 1st
Offensive rating - 16th
Win shares - 11th
Win shares/48 - 7th

I understand there are some caveats, but at what point does being the best player statistically on a 48 win team, with playoff success minus Bosh tell us something?

I think most people agree he is a good player. It is just a question of how good. Some people don't think he is quite on good on defense as he made out to be. To that respect look at how easily Jefferson and Valuncias have scored on him recently.

All that aside, the much bigger questions are how will he play and act when he has a long term contract. He has motivation and attitude issues. Someone with his skills doesn't really end up in Lebanon without that. Several of the Heat players have been frustrated with him during their time their. I think the idea of him signing a long term contract is wear a lot more people get negative, rather than how he is playing right now.

[greece66]

He is a good player no doubt.

But does he deserve a 4 year max contract? This is hard to tell.

[byennie]

With Bosh out, if the heat reach the ECF, does "net negative" Whiteside get a little more credit?

I understand he doesn't pass and he's a potential head case, but at what point does the idea that he's not valuable on the court come to a stop? He rates elite on BOTH ends of the court, and easily outperforms his own teammates on advanced stats.

Blocked shots - 1st
True shooting % - 4th
Rebounding % - 2nd
Defensive rating - 1st
Offensive rating - 16th
Win shares - 11th
Win shares/48 - 7th

I understand there are some caveats, but at what point does being the best player statistically on a 48 win team, with playoff success minus Bosh tell us something?

I think most people agree he is a good player. It is just a question of how good. Some people don't think he is quite on good on defense as he made out to be. To that respect look at how easily Jefferson and Valuncias have scored on him recently.

All that aside, the much bigger questions are how will he play and act when he has a long term contract. He has motivation and attitude issues. Someone with his skills doesn't really end up in Lebanon without that. Several of the Heat players have been frustrated with him during their time their. I think the idea of him signing a long term contract is wear a lot more people get negative, rather than how he is playing right now.

I get all that, I just wonder how far this "story" has swung into the negative. You see people questioning whether he's even a net positive on the court... after 150 games of every stat saying overwhelmingly 'YES'. Certainly I'd want to due my diligence, but I have to wonder if these rumors about disgruntled teammates just make for good click bait.

Max deal? I dunno. It just seems like a lot of lip service about avoiding him at any price, lately.

[byennie]

With Bosh out, if the heat reach the ECF, does "net negative" Whiteside get a little more credit?

I understand he doesn't pass and he's a potential head case, but at what point does the idea that he's not valuable on the court come to a stop? He rates elite on BOTH ends of the court, and easily outperforms his own teammates on advanced stats.

Blocked shots - 1st
True shooting % - 4th
Rebounding % - 2nd
Defensive rating - 1st
Offensive rating - 16th
Win shares - 11th
Win shares/48 - 7th

I understand there are some caveats, but at what point does being the best player statistically on a 48 win team, with playoff success minus Bosh tell us something?

I think most people agree he is a good player. It is just a question of how good. Some people don't think he is quite on good on defense as he made out to be. To that respect look at how easily Jefferson and Valuncias have scored on him recently.

All that aside, the much bigger questions are how will he play and act when he has a long term contract. He has motivation and attitude issues. Someone with his skills doesn't really end up in Lebanon without that. Several of the Heat players have been frustrated with him during their time their. I think the idea of him signing a long term contract is wear a lot more people get negative, rather than how he is playing right now.

FWIW his DRtg in the playoffs is 85 (offensive 128). Big low post centers definitely aren't the norm, either...

I agree on the mental concerns. Just wonder at what point one has to believe what you see on the court.

[Smart457]

Whiteside is worth every penny on a max contract.

Put him out there in our lineup with Crowder at the four. It would work.

Look how good Miami has been with Whiteside and 4 perimeter guys out there. Bosh being out has actually helped Miami. Those lineups with Bosh and Whiteside was just not working.

[Evantime34]

Whiteside has been much better in the playoffs, he's playing team ball by not chasing every block attempt but focusing on staying in good position.

If you could get him to consistently play like he has in thep layoffs I think he would be worth it.

[Csfan1984]

He is a positive factor for the most part. And is truly a difference maker at times. Being a big man and being elite in a number of good stats he very much deserves the lower max rate of 25%* of the cap. Especially when he has being playing at a bargain price for two years. Heat should retain him.

[ssspence]

Quoting Tony Mazz, I don't care about the numbers. Watch the game.

The guy scares the living **** out of his opponents. His effect on the flow of games is tremendous. It makes me green with envy. I really hope the immaturity rap is overblown, and if Ainge can get in a time machine and assure that's true, I hope like Rhode Island the Celtics pay him the max this summer....

[Quetzalcoatl]

You see people questioning whether he's even a net positive on the court... after 150 games of every stat saying overwhelmingly 'YES'.

He has 137 turnovers and 30 assists on the season.  2 assists in the entire playoffs so far.

[hwangjini_1]

With Bosh out, if the heat reach the ECF, does "net negative" Whiteside get a little more credit?

I understand he doesn't pass and he's a potential head case, but at what point does the idea that he's not valuable on the court come to a stop? He rates elite on BOTH ends of the court, and easily outperforms his own teammates on advanced stats.

Blocked shots - 1st
True shooting % - 4th
Rebounding % - 2nd
Defensive rating - 1st
Offensive rating - 16th
Win shares - 11th
Win shares/48 - 7th

I understand there are some caveats, but at what point does being the best player statistically on a 48 win team, with playoff success minus Bosh tell us something?

I think most people agree he is a good player. It is just a question of how good. Some people don't think he is quite on good on defense as he made out to be. To that respect look at how easily Jefferson and Valuncias have scored on him recently.

All that aside, the much bigger questions are how will he play and act when he has a long term contract. He has motivation and attitude issues. Someone with his skills doesn't really end up in Lebanon without that. Several of the Heat players have been frustrated with him during their time their. I think the idea of him signing a long term contract is wear a lot more people get negative, rather than how he is playing right now.

I get all that, I just wonder how far this "story" has swung into the negative. You see people questioning whether he's even a net positive on the court... after 150 games of every stat saying overwhelmingly 'YES'. Certainly I'd want to due my diligence, but I have to wonder if these rumors about disgruntled teammates just make for good click bait.

Max deal? I dunno. It just seems like a lot of lip service about avoiding him at any price, lately.

lots of folks here have reservations or questions or doubts about whiteside, but i dont recall posters making the exact points you say they do.

most of the posters seem to be raising doubts, which is legitimate to do.

oh, and when you state that every stat shows him as positive. perhaps, but perhaps not necessarily as strongly as you seem to imply. for example, his plus/minus places him at 93rd in the league. not bad, not great.

i guess my point is that the debates here seem to be more nuanced than you posit. folks here seem to largely view him as a mixed bag and wonder if under CBS his limitations might show more than his positives.

[ssspence]

You see people questioning whether he's even a net positive on the court... after 150 games of every stat saying overwhelmingly 'YES'.

He has 137 turnovers and 30 assists on the season.  2 assists in the entire playoffs so far.

He doesn't pass. He's a pick-n-roll dunk machine. If his man switches or doubles off him, he dunks over them. If they don't, Dragic / Wade / whoever get to the rim... a lot.

In other words, he's a key part of their offense without ever having a play called for him. The less assists he has, the better.

 

[footey]

Is Miami going to offer him a max deal? If so, got to figure he stays there.

[byennie]

lots of folks here have reservations or questions or doubts about whiteside, but i dont recall posters making the exact points you say they do.

most of the posters seem to be raising doubts, which is legitimate to do.

oh, and when you state that every stat shows him as positive. perhaps, but perhaps not necessarily as strongly as you seem to imply. for example, his plus/minus places him at 93rd in the league. not bad, not great.

i guess my point is that the debates here seem to be more nuanced than you posit. folks here seem to largely view him as a mixed bag and wonder if under CBS his limitations might show more than his positives.

I agree there are some thoughtful debates on here. I would say more that the general tone may need to keep shifting with the way he's performed in the playoffs. First it was a fluke half season, then a fluke season and a half... and now he might be the best player on a team in the ECF.

I could rephrase on stats- I'd say "overwhelmingly positive". He's among the leaders in a lot of really important categories. How often does a guy top the charts in true shooting, rebounding and blocked shots, along with offensive and defensive rating (even relative to his teammates)? Doesn't mean the 93rd in +/- is wrong, of course. It's just the more I look, the more I wonder what it will take to make him consensus star. I guess performing on his next contract =).

[byennie]

You see people questioning whether he's even a net positive on the court... after 150 games of every stat saying overwhelmingly 'YES'.

He has 137 turnovers and 30 assists on the season.  2 assists in the entire playoffs so far.

He doesn't pass. He's a pick-n-roll dunk machine. If his man switches or doubles off him, he dunks over them. If they don't, Dragic / Wade / whoever get to the rim... a lot.

In other words, he's a key part of their offense without ever having a play called for him. The less assists he has, the better.

This. A good coach (we have one) is going to consider him a huge asset. Assuming he keeps his head straight, of course. But the lack of assists doesn't worry me for the reasons mentioned here. Thomas + Whiteside would be deadly paired with some outside shooting. Are you going to let IT get to the rim, defend the pick n roll, or pay attention to the shooters on the wings? Put Bradley + Smart on perimeter defense and Whiteside in the middle, where are you going to shoot from? Long 2 pointers.