Dragen Bender not (yet) invited to NBA Combine

[Evantime34]

once again:

Bender is not a scrub. But he hasn`t shown ANYTHING good enough to be top3 pick.

Bender didn`t get minutes playing for a bad team against even worse competition. how many times have you watched Macabi this season?

Bender against other players in his age didn`t make the difference.

Scouts try to avoid another Giannis pick. Nobody wants to be the guy that missed again a 7ft playmaker...

This, in a nutshell. 

I hope to god Danny doesn't waste the highest pick we have had in probably 20 years on Bender.

Just to amuse myself, I called an advance scout I've known for 20 years with a team that's still playing, and has a much more consistent draft record than Ainge's.

His take on Bender: "Some club will be stupid enough to overpay for him the draft. It won't be us."

I asked him what he'd heard about the Celtics and Bender: "Nothing."

Sounds about right.

The thing that amuses me is that nobody really has much to say about Bender that makes him sound outstanding.  Even the guys here who promote the idea of taking him at #3 don't seem to make an especially strong case for it.

1) He's seven feet tall
2) He's fairly athletic for a seven footer
3) He has decent shooting mechanics
4) He's a pretty good perimeter defender for a seven footer
5) He's an above average passer and ball handler for a seven footer
6) He has a good motor and work ethic

Every bit of writing you ever see on Bender is smothered with adjectives like "fairly", "decent", "pretty good", "above average" - and more then anything "potential". 

Pretty much everybody acknowledges that he is not even remotely close to NBA ready, and that he'd be a long work in progress.  Everybody prays that he will realise this 'potential' because right now that's pretty much all he is.

Bender appears to have the foundational skills to ensure that in time, he will eventually become an NBA calibre player.  That's all well and good, but we are talking about a #3 pick here.   

You don't gamble a #3 pick on guys who are years away from 'hopefully' becoming effective NBA players just because you think they might have some hidden upside.  You gamble on guys like when you fall back into the 14-20 range, when all the "sure things" are gone.  That's why guys like Giannis, Gobert and Whiteside were taken so late in the draft - high risk, high upside.  Nobody was wasting a top 5 pick on those guys.  Not just Ainge - nobody.

Right now Bender is firmly in Labissiere territory - very raw big man who has some nice foundational skills, solid athleticism, and who you hope (with a bit of luck) could surprise you and become really good players.  In fact I think Labissiere has a better chance of making it then Bender does, to be honest.  I wouldn't throw away a top 5 pick on either of them, but I'd take the gamble on Labissiere with the Mavs pick probably, if he's still there.

There;s just nothing at all elite about Bender's game.  His most promising talent is probably his ability to defend against quicker perimeter players, but while that is a nice trait to have it's hardly the type of trait that breeds superstars.  Not unless you can also prove you're calable of being a quality scorer, and Bender right now hasn't proven that at all.

I think the best case for Bender is a slightly taller Al Horford.  Nice player, but at #3 I want somebody who has the potential to be a bonafide All-Star.

The question is, who do you like at 3 that you think has the potential to be a bonafide all-star? With all the depth and the draft picks we have I want to see us swing for the fences with high potential guys at every pick. I like Bender's potential more than anyone after Ingram and Simmons.

In the modern NBA a big who can knock down 3's, guard switches on the perimeter and block shots is extremely valuable. This is where I see the potential, not that he has an outstanding skill but that he has the combination of very good skills that are the most coveted in the NBA right now.

I'd much rather the C's trade any pick after 2 for a star, but if that doesn't happen I want to draft the player with the highest ceiling. If someone can make a case for another player being the highest upside player at 3 I'm open to it.

[ederson]

@ Evantime34

In the modern NBA a big who can knock down 3's, guard switches on the perimeter and block shots is extremely valuable. This is where I see the potential, not that he has an outstanding skill but that he has the combination of very good skills that are the most coveted in the NBA right now.

The thing is.... nobody has actually seen him doing that.... You think that they are stupid in Maccabi and they don`t take advantage of such a player

[Eddie20]

In a mock draft scenario where the Kings land the #2 pick, Ford had a couple of thoughts on Bender...

Pelton: This is the best possible draft pick for the Kings, who would have to swap with Philadelphia if they are awarded a higher pick.

I think Vlade Divac would be tempted to swing for the fences with Dragan Bender, but ultimately there's no way he can pass on Ingram given the consensus that there's a jump down after the top two prospects.

Ford: Knowing the Kings, I think they'd grab Hield here. Seriously. I hear Vlade loves him. He loves Bender, too, but with any other team, I think there's no way Ingram falls below No. 2.

Ford on Chriss...

Ford: I'm a huge fan of Chriss and personally I'd be tempted to take him ahead of both Bender and Ellenson. There's a higher risk there, but after Simmons and Ingram, I'm not sure there's a guy with a higher ceiling.

And as for us, we slip to #5 and draft Hield

Ford: The Celtics could also use more shooting in their backcourt. In the postseason, no one who saw regular minutes cracked 35 percent from 3, and the guy who got closest, Marcus Smart, isn't a great shooter.

Hield is a dynamic player. And while the backcourt may already be crowded with Smart, Isaiah Thomas and Avery Bradley, adding an elite shooter can't hurt things.

Pelton: Agreed. Bender is again in the mix if Danny Ainge wants to swing for the fences, but you're spot on about Boston's need for shooting.

[Evantime34]

@ Evantime34

In the modern NBA a big who can knock down 3's, guard switches on the perimeter and block shots is extremely valuable. This is where I see the potential, not that he has an outstanding skill but that he has the combination of very good skills that are the most coveted in the NBA right now.

The thing is.... nobody has actually seen him doing that.... You think that they are stupid in Maccabi and they don`t take advantage of such a player

No I don't think they are stupid. I don't think he can do all those things now, but has the potential to do those things in the future. IMO in foreign leagues they are less likely to develop a young player than play an older guy who is better right now, which hurt him this year and hurt Hezonja last year.

In a mock draft scenario where the Kings land the #2 pick, Ford had a couple of thoughts on Bender...

Pelton: This is the best possible draft pick for the Kings, who would have to swap with Philadelphia if they are awarded a higher pick.

I think Vlade Divac would be tempted to swing for the fences with Dragan Bender, but ultimately there's no way he can pass on Ingram given the consensus that there's a jump down after the top two prospects.

Ford: Knowing the Kings, I think they'd grab Hield here. Seriously. I hear Vlade loves him. He loves Bender, too, but with any other team, I think there's no way Ingram falls below No. 2.

Ford on Chriss...

Ford: I'm a huge fan of Chriss and personally I'd be tempted to take him ahead of both Bender and Ellenson. There's a higher risk there, but after Simmons and Ingram, I'm not sure there's a guy with a higher ceiling.

And as for us, we slip to #5 and draft Hield

Ford: The Celtics could also use more shooting in their backcourt. In the postseason, no one who saw regular minutes cracked 35 percent from 3, and the guy who got closest, Marcus Smart, isn't a great shooter.

Hield is a dynamic player. And while the backcourt may already be crowded with Smart, Isaiah Thomas and Avery Bradley, adding an elite shooter can't hurt things.

Pelton: Agreed. Bender is again in the mix if Danny Ainge wants to swing for the fences, but you're spot on about Boston's need for shooting.

This probably doesn't belong in this thread, but if Vlade liked Buddy so much, then they could decide to go full rebuild and trade us Boogie for the 5th pick and other pieces. A rebuild centered around Ingram, Buddy, WCS and whoever else we give him isn't that bad.

[Eddie20]

Continuing on the thoughts on Bender, if what Ford says is true about Vlade being in love with Bender, then perhaps it wouldn't necessarily take a top 2 pick to land Cousins, but rather a package including a top 3 pick.

[TheSundanceKid]

Continuing on the thoughts on Bender, if what Ford says is true about Vlade being in love with Bender, then perhaps it wouldn't necessarily take a top 2 pick to land Cousins, but rather a package including a top 3 pick.

Or according to some people, a 2nd round pick! Seriously though, as much as I like Bender and Brown to a certain extent if we aren't top-2 then I think we need to seriously look around at which vets are available

[ederson]

No I don't think they are stupid. I don't think he can do all those things now, but has the potential to do those things in the future. IMO in foreign leagues they are less likely to develop a young player than play an older guy who is better right now, which hurt him this year and hurt Hezonja last year.

You guys keep comparing the Israeli league to ACB and honestly drives me crazy.... Hezonja got to play against the best non NBA competition available. TBH i don`t think much of him either but at least he competed against real bball players and he got the time he deserved. He was scouted against pros. He had 15mpg at the age of 18. What you are also missing is that top european teams like Barcelona are 10-12 men deep and in very few cases you can see players with +30mpg. The 15min Hezonja got was not as low as you may think

[CFAN38]

@ Evantime34

In the modern NBA a big who can knock down 3's, guard switches on the perimeter and block shots is extremely valuable. This is where I see the potential, not that he has an outstanding skill but that he has the combination of very good skills that are the most coveted in the NBA right now.

The thing is.... nobody has actually seen him doing that.... You think that they are stupid in Maccabi and they don`t take advantage of such a player

I cant help but keep getting sucked into defender Bender

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vXWiiFvvmU

The above video is not great quality but its Croatia vs Lithuania in the Fiba U18

http://www.fibaeurope.com/compID_8aYeHlfuGF-mF5IqO8aFH1.season_2014.roundID_10067.gameID_10069-B-4-2.html

Above is the box score

Bender had 34pt 14rb

An important note from the video and the box score is the presence of potential Lottery pick Domantas Sabonis in the game.

It is also important to keep in mind that Bender is a year younger then his Lithuanian competition.

[mmmmm]

So you are saying that Bender could contribute more to a struggling team but because he wants to leave they don`t use him? I find it a bit hard to believe ....

Young players do get play time if they prove they can actually help their teams. Vezenkov at 19 was MVP of the Greek league , definately better than the Israeli league.
Porzingis was a 20mpg player in ACB and 2 times All young ACB team
Galinari and Belineli were stars in Italy , so where the Gasols.

BTW B Jenkins wasn`t just some guy who played in Italy. Was considered a top prospect because of his performance and because of his body type

In the year when Porzingis was Bender's age, he averaged 15.2 mpg, 6.9 points, 2.8 rebounds.   

[LooseCannon]

Just to be clear, a lot of Euro teams seem to like playing young players less than Doc Rivers, Hezonja and Porzingis are two years older than Bender so if you want to compare then you should use their 2013-2014 seasons, and Bender looks to be a better prospect than Sabonis, who some people around here are high on.

[alldaboston]

So you are saying that Bender could contribute more to a struggling team but because he wants to leave they don`t use him? I find it a bit hard to believe ....

Young players do get play time if they prove they can actually help their teams. Vezenkov at 19 was MVP of the Greek league , definately better than the Israeli league.
Porzingis was a 20mpg player in ACB and 2 times All young ACB team
Galinari and Belineli were stars in Italy , so where the Gasols.

BTW B Jenkins wasn`t just some guy who played in Italy. Was considered a top prospect because of his performance and because of his body type

In the year when Porzingis was Bender's age, he averaged 15.2 mpg, 6.9 points, 2.8 rebounds.

And what are Bender's averages right now?

[kozlodoev]

No I don't think they are stupid. I don't think he can do all those things now, but has the potential to do those things in the future. IMO in foreign leagues they are less likely to develop a young player than play an older guy who is better right now, which hurt him this year and hurt Hezonja last year.

You guys keep comparing the Israeli league to ACB and honestly drives me crazy.... Hezonja got to play against the best non NBA competition available. TBH i don`t think much of him either but at least he competed against real bball players and he got the time he deserved. He was scouted against pros. He had 15mpg at the age of 18. What you are also missing is that top european teams like Barcelona are 10-12 men deep and in very few cases you can see players with +30mpg. The 15min Hezonja got was not as low as you may think

Also, these are 15 minutes from a 40-minute long game.

[kozlodoev]

But his stats do not show that he does more than hover on the perimeter and shoot threes.  This alleged athleticism does not translate into a ton of blocks for him.   His blocks have went down over the course of his career.   They do not translate into a bunch of steals.   This shows me that he does not like playing defense.

This shows me that you don't understand defense.

Euro defense is not NBA defense, mostly due to the fact that you can play straight zone and not worry about defensive three seconds.

[mmmmm]

So you are saying that Bender could contribute more to a struggling team but because he wants to leave they don`t use him? I find it a bit hard to believe ....

Young players do get play time if they prove they can actually help their teams. Vezenkov at 19 was MVP of the Greek league , definately better than the Israeli league.
Porzingis was a 20mpg player in ACB and 2 times All young ACB team
Galinari and Belineli were stars in Italy , so where the Gasols.

BTW B Jenkins wasn`t just some guy who played in Italy. Was considered a top prospect because of his performance and because of his body type

In the year when Porzingis was Bender's age, he averaged 15.2 mpg, 6.9 points, 2.8 rebounds.

And what are Bender's averages right now?

In his current league, Israeli-BSL, over 25 games Bender has averaged 13.6 minutes, 5.48 points, 2.68 rebounds.  Bender is shooting 47.9% FG, 41.1% 3PT & 73.3% FT over those 25 games.

On a per-minute basis, pretty similar numbers to Porzingis at the same age, though with better 3PT & FT shooting percentages.

Bender also played in 3 EuroCup games, averaging just 4 minutes and 7 Euroleague games, averaging 10.5 minutes.  His performance in those has been pretty forgettable.

Some statements have been thrown down earlier in this thread to the extent that Bender is being criticized for not getting minutes despite playing on a crappy team in a crappy league.   Israeli-BSL is not at the same level as Spanish-ACB, but it is a fairly strong professional league.  It has a few former NBA players scattered about on rosters (Nate Robinson is playing on the Hapoel Tel Aviv team).   Bender's team, Maccabi FOX Tel Aviv is currently 22-9, so they are not a crappy team and they are playing to win games.  His team's roster is dominated by veterans mostly between ages 25-32.  So he is basically a baby teenager on that roster.

As I've said elsewhere, I don't know enough about Bender to assert that Danny should take him with the BKN pick or not.  I am just trying to cut through the noise that people who also clearly don't know much about him keep spewing about.   I'll trust Danny will do his best to properly scout and vet Bender and all the other players as well.

[loco_91]

So you are saying that Bender could contribute more to a struggling team but because he wants to leave they don`t use him? I find it a bit hard to believe ....

Young players do get play time if they prove they can actually help their teams. Vezenkov at 19 was MVP of the Greek league , definately better than the Israeli league.
Porzingis was a 20mpg player in ACB and 2 times All young ACB team
Galinari and Belineli were stars in Italy , so where the Gasols.

BTW B Jenkins wasn`t just some guy who played in Italy. Was considered a top prospect because of his performance and because of his body type

In the year when Porzingis was Bender's age, he averaged 15.2 mpg, 6.9 points, 2.8 rebounds.

And what are Bender's averages right now?

In his current league, Israeli-BSL, over 25 games Bender has averaged 13.6 minutes, 5.48 points, 2.68 rebounds.  Bender is shooting 47.9% FG, 41.1% 3PT & 73.3% FT over those 25 games.

On a per-minute basis, pretty similar numbers to Porzingis at the same age, though with better 3PT & FT shooting percentages.

Bender also played in 3 EuroCup games, averaging just 4 minutes and 7 Euroleague games, averaging 10.5 minutes.  His performance in those has been pretty forgettable.

Some statements have been thrown down earlier in this thread to the extent that Bender is being criticized for not getting minutes despite playing on a crappy team in a crappy league.   Israeli-BSL is not at the same level as Spanish-ACB, but it is a fairly strong professional league.  It has a few former NBA players scattered about on rosters (Nate Robinson is playing on the Hapoel Tel Aviv team).   Bender's team, Maccabi FOX Tel Aviv is currently 22-9, so they are not a crappy team and they are playing to win games.  His team's roster is dominated by veterans mostly between ages 25-32.  So he is basically a baby teenager on that roster.

As I've said elsewhere, I don't know enough about Bender to assert that Danny should take him with the BKN pick or not.  I am just trying to cut through the noise that people who also clearly don't know much about him keep spewing about.   I'll trust Danny will do his best to properly scout and vet Bender and all the other players as well.

TP for the levelheaded assessment.