Dragen Bender not (yet) invited to NBA Combine

[Tr1boy]

Here are his rankings in the Israeli League

Player Ranking in Stats Categories

Ranks #69 in Effiency (5.6)
Ranks #70 in Points Per Game (5.5)
Ranks #61 in Rebounds Per Game (2.7)
Ranks #76 in Steals Per Game (0.6)
Ranks #90 in Turnovers Per Game (0.6)
Ranks #12 in Blocks Per Game (0.
Ranks #9 in 3-Pts Percentage (41.1%)

Why would we give a guy from that league, a shot at the combo invite.   I would not mind spending a second rounder on him but does he deserve a shot?

There is a reason he is hiding, he has not produced.  They better hide him the mystery and he is tall are his best  assets.

http://basket.co.il/PlayerPage.asp?PlayerNumber=03&TeamId=950&cYear=2016&cView=2&lang=en

brutal numbers. Especially rebounding

doesn't those stats (good 3 pt shot) scream Mirotic potential?

[HomerSapien]

According to DraftExpress there are 8 international players projected to go in the 1st round, and 7 more to go in the 2nd round. Only two of them (Zhou Qi, Thon Maker) are on the combine invitee list Jeff Goodman shared - neither of who play in a European professional league.

Think what you will about Bender's potential as an NBA player, but the lack of a combine invite has zero relevance to his draft stock.

[TheSundanceKid]

Here are his rankings in the Israeli League

Player Ranking in Stats Categories

Ranks #69 in Effiency (5.6)
Ranks #70 in Points Per Game (5.5)
Ranks #61 in Rebounds Per Game (2.7)
Ranks #76 in Steals Per Game (0.6)
Ranks #90 in Turnovers Per Game (0.6)
Ranks #12 in Blocks Per Game (0.
Ranks #9 in 3-Pts Percentage (41.1%)

Why would we give a guy from that league, a shot at the combo invite.   I would not mind spending a second rounder on him but does he deserve a shot?

There is a reason he is hiding, he has not produced.  They better hide him the mystery and he is tall are his best  assets.

http://basket.co.il/PlayerPage.asp?PlayerNumber=03&TeamId=950&cYear=2016&cView=2&lang=en

Obviously his per game numbers will rank low as he has a low minutes total. Where would his per 36 stats rank? Particularly as that is how certain people love to show why their binkies should be at the front of the Celtics rotation.

[TheSundanceKid]

Genuine question, last year when Mudiay had been injured the whole year, or when Irving played like 3 games for Duke, why did most people give them a pass and continue to rank them at the top of the board, yet with Bender he's a scrub who suddenly can't play? Just curious if people would be saying the same things if the guy was named Dwayne Lemarcus from Ohio...

[ederson]

once again:

Bender is not a scrub. But he hasn`t shown ANYTHING good enough to be top3 pick.

Bender didn`t get minutes playing for a bad team against even worse competition. how many times have you watched Macabi this season?

Bender against other players in his age didn`t make the difference.

Scouts try to avoid another Giannis pick. Nobody wants to be the guy that missed again a 7ft playmaker...

[LooseCannon]

Bender is not a scrub. But he hasn`t shown ANYTHING good enough to be top3 pick.

He's rated so highly due to athleticism (not leaping ability, but great mobility for his size), potential, and the defense that doesn't show up in the stats being cited.

Bender seems to really want to play in the NBA.  He went to a lesser league probably so he could negotiate a smaller NBA buy-out.  The team that signed him knows he wants to leave, so they don't have as much of an incentive to play him heavy minutes. 

Anyways, it is a Euro team (Israeli counts as Euro for basketball purposes), and young player just normally don't get heavy minutes.  Take a look at Brandon Jennings' stats in Europe.

[ederson]

So you are saying that Bender could contribute more to a struggling team but because he wants to leave they don`t use him? I find it a bit hard to believe ....

Young players do get play time if they prove they can actually help their teams. Vezenkov at 19 was MVP of the Greek league , definately better than the Israeli league.
Porzingis was a 20mpg player in ACB and 2 times All young ACB team
Galinari and Belineli were stars in Italy , so where the Gasols.

BTW B Jenkins wasn`t just some guy who played in Italy. Was considered a top prospect because of his performance and because of his body type

[Roy H.]

Genuine question, last year when Mudiay had been injured the whole year, or when Irving played like 3 games for Duke, why did most people give them a pass and continue to rank them at the top of the board, yet with Bender he's a scrub who suddenly can't play? Just curious if people would be saying the same things if the guy was named Dwayne Lemarcus from Ohio...

Those guys still produced when they got time.

In Bender's case, he is almost pure potential, with no foundation of production to project from.  It doesn't make him a scrub, but at the same time he hasn't proven himself.

[Celtics4ever]

He's rated so highly due to athleticism (not leaping ability, but great mobility for his size), potential, and the defense that doesn't show up in the stats being cited.

Bender seems to really want to play in the NBA.  He went to a lesser league probably so he could negotiate a smaller NBA buy-out.  The team that signed him knows he wants to leave, so they don't have as much of an incentive to play him heavy minutes. 

He may well be athletic.  Though I am certain we have different definitions of that, for me it is more than being able to chew gum and walk at the same time.  He can run, so can a lot of guys.   Let's see his lateral agility and verticals, vertical jump is a good predictor of athletic ability.
But his stats do not show that he does more than hover on the perimeter and shoot threes.  This alleged athleticism does not translate into a ton of blocks for him.   His blocks have went down over the course of his career.   They do not translate into a bunch of steals.   This shows me that he does not like playing defense.   If a guy has the ability which you claim he does, then desire is perhaps the reason that he is not a dominant defensive player?   He has played pro ball for several years, so can you use the experience factor at this point?  He also shows a big reluctance to bulk up, don't they have weights in Europe?   I know they do as Europe is famous for their strong men in the World's Strongest Men.

But he went to a lesser league because he could not play in the higher level one.   His stats bear this out.   It has nothing to do with a buyout, he did not product.  Perhaps they did not want him, guys who can't play in the NBA go overseas or to the NBA DL.   I wager this is more the case than him planning ahead for a buy out.   Were he wanting to get to the NBA, one would think that he would produce some stats that might be indicative that he can play there.

They say people are more fact resistant these days, I think Bender fans are stat resistant.  Despite the glaring lack of production, they think he is the second coming.   If he had NBA legit stats some of us would be wanting to take him but he does not.   But you point out these stats to his supporters and you get stuff like " he wants a buy out" , "he is young" let me tell you something excuses are like you know what and everyone has one.

[TheSundanceKid]

Genuine question, last year when Mudiay had been injured the whole year, or when Irving played like 3 games for Duke, why did most people give them a pass and continue to rank them at the top of the board, yet with Bender he's a scrub who suddenly can't play? Just curious if people would be saying the same things if the guy was named Dwayne Lemarcus from Ohio...

Those guys still produced when they got time.

In Bender's case, he is almost pure potential, with no foundation of production to project from.  It doesn't make him a scrub, but at the same time he hasn't proven himself.

That's the thing though. His per minute production is good, he just hasn't gotten the minutes. But he does have previous years of data, albeit at a lower level, which we can use to project forward.

So you are saying that Bender could contribute more to a struggling team but because he wants to leave they don`t use him? I find it a bit hard to believe ....

Young players do get play time if they prove they can actually help their teams. Vezenkov at 19 was MVP of the Greek league , definately better than the Israeli league.
Porzingis was a 20mpg player in ACB and 2 times All young ACB team
Galinari and Belineli were stars in Italy , so where the Gasols.

BTW B Jenkins wasn`t just some guy who played in Italy. Was considered a top prospect because of his performance and because of his body type

So some of that is misleading. Looking at basketball-reference for context;
Ginobilli was 22 in his first year recorded there so I can't compare his stats at the age of 18.
Belinelli got 16mpg at 18 averaging 5.4ppg, 1.0rpg and 0.7apg
Porzingis was a 20mpg player when he was 19, when he was 18 he was a 15mpg player 6.7ppg, 2.8rpg, 0.3apg
Vezenkov I will concede, he's a good player. He got no Euroleague play however fwiw

Bender is projected a lot higher than those guys were at 18 which is where the argument is. Not should he be drafted but are we happy using the #3 pick on him as opposed to #15-17. I think yes because he has attributes that often lead to the making of a high level player. Mental drive, very good athleticism, high motor, good work ethic, good shot mechanics, improving shooting percentages to name a few.

I think the point with Jennings is that he was a good High school player in the US that would have received heavy minutes on an NCAA team. However in Europe he received fewer minutes. The comparison being that if Bender had been in the American system then he would have received a larger role on a college team and there would be fewer questions on him deserving the #3 pick

[Roy H.]

Genuine question, last year when Mudiay had been injured the whole year, or when Irving played like 3 games for Duke, why did most people give them a pass and continue to rank them at the top of the board, yet with Bender he's a scrub who suddenly can't play? Just curious if people would be saying the same things if the guy was named Dwayne Lemarcus from Ohio...

Those guys still produced when they got time.

In Bender's case, he is almost pure potential, with no foundation of production to project from.  It doesn't make him a scrub, but at the same time he hasn't proven himself.

That's the thing though. His per minute production is good, he just hasn't gotten the minutes. But he does have previous years of data, albeit at a lower level, which we can use to project forward.

Per-minute production is pretty useless for projections at lower minutes.  It's helpful if you're trying to compare a 30 minute player and a 34 minute player.  It's had no predictive effect if used for something along the lines of "Player X produces Y in 10 minutes; he'd accordingly produce 3.6Y in 36 minutes".

There's generally a reason guys play few minutes, and often the minutes they do see are in garbage time and/or against bench players. 

I see Bender as a mystery box with a lot of desirable athletic and physical traits.  I think many of us are always going to be uncomfortable taking a mystery at #3. 

[CoachBo]

I see absolutely nothing to like in this guy in the film clips, or statistical performance in Israel, and am thus adamantly opposed to spending a first round pick, let alone the sheer madness of a lottery pick, on him.

He is Yi Jianlian again, a vastly overhyped bust looking for a place to happen, and has done nothing to suggest he is anything more than a scrub.

[jambr380]

I guess one of the questions I have is, why is Bender such a dream prospect while Maker is now considered trash? What are the differences between them that make one so much more desirable than the other?

Also, I don't know how the draft combine works, but I'd imagine that if Bender really wanted to showcase his skills, he would skip his last game and come to the combine. It's not like he is an integral part of the team and he is slated as a top 3-4 pick; I am sure every team would LOVE to see him.

[TheSundanceKid]

Genuine question, last year when Mudiay had been injured the whole year, or when Irving played like 3 games for Duke, why did most people give them a pass and continue to rank them at the top of the board, yet with Bender he's a scrub who suddenly can't play? Just curious if people would be saying the same things if the guy was named Dwayne Lemarcus from Ohio...

Those guys still produced when they got time.

In Bender's case, he is almost pure potential, with no foundation of production to project from.  It doesn't make him a scrub, but at the same time he hasn't proven himself.

That's the thing though. His per minute production is good, he just hasn't gotten the minutes. But he does have previous years of data, albeit at a lower level, which we can use to project forward.

Per-minute production is pretty useless for projections at lower minutes.  It's helpful if you're trying to compare a 30 minute player and a 34 minute player.  It's had no predictive effect if used for something along the lines of "Player X produces Y in 10 minutes; he'd accordingly produce 3.6Y in 36 minutes".

There's generally a reason guys play few minutes, and often the minutes they do see are in garbage time and/or against bench players. 

I see Bender as a mystery box with a lot of desirable athletic and physical traits.  I think many of us are always going to be uncomfortable taking a mystery at #3.

No I completely agree. It's why I haven't tried to use his numbers to justify production in higher minutes. the quote was "no foundation of production to project from" which I was disagreeing with.
I think mmmmm pointed it out earlier in the thread or in another that the important stats are his shooting percentages, which have improved over previous years despite the low minutes. So there's evidence that he is improving.

There is generally a reason but that reason differs between the NBA and Europe. Lets say for example that Ingram went straight onto the Bucks (random example) instead of going to Duke, how many minutes would he have got this year? That might be a reasonable comparison. Or Jaylen Brown on the Denver Nuggets?

[jambr380]

I see absolutely nothing to like in this guy in the film clips, or statistical performance in Israel, and am thus adamantly opposed to spending a first round pick, let alone the sheer madness of a lottery pick, on him.

He is Yi Jianlian again, a vastly overhyped bust looking for a place to happen, and has done nothing to suggest he is anything more than a scrub.

What's funny is we are actually the perfect team to take him as it isn't our pick and we don't 'need' a top prospect like other teams choosing in this range - kind-of like the Pistons with Darko. Still, though, please let Danny do anything else with this selection (or just end up in the top two!).