Unbiased: is Kobe a top 10 all time player?

[moiso]

Nah.  He was never the best player on any of his championship teams.

You can pick and choose whatever stats you want to suggest Pau was more impactful during their back-to-back championship run, but it's flat-out wrong to suggest Kobe wasn't the best player on the Lakers in 2010 and 2011. He was one of the league leaders in scoring, he was the guy teams game-planned to stop every night, etc. Not sure about top ten of all time (though I think he at least deserves such consideration), but Kobe Bryant was absolutely the best player on two of his title teams.

Nah.  Pau carried those teams.

You are entitled to your opinion.  I emphatically disagree.

Gasol was always Robin to Kobe's Batman.

You are right, but a lot of that was personality.  I think Pau was at least as good of a player at that time.

[crimson_stallion]

I am no Kobe fan AT ALL, and he is definitely somewhat overrated, but to suggest that Stockton or CP3 were better is ridiculous.  Maravich?  He didn't even score half as many points as Kobe and did nothing in the playoffs.  Anyone suggesting that is taking college stats into consideration, he wasn't close to a top 10 NBA player. 

Pau more impactful?  Kobe was the #1 option and Finals MVP.  I LOVE KG, but he does not rank higher All-Time.  You can't knock Lebron for going to Miami to win rings or Kobe for needing Shaq and not give the same consideration to KG's ring.  Sure, I am still p---ed that the refs paraded Kobe to the line to win the 2010 series but it is what it is...

Kobe is definitely top 20 and borderline top 10.  I would put him around 12th All-Time.  If he had been a better teammate (yes, a big if) he would be close to Magic, Bird, Lebron and ahead of Duncan.  He is certainly a tick above Dirk, Ewing types and right there clustered with Duncan, West, Robertson, Big O, Olajuwon, maybe Dr J.  You could argue him as high as 9th and I wouldn't have a serious problem with it (Jordan, Russell, Wilt, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Lebron, Shaq are the top 8 to me in approximate order).

Why is it ridiculous to say CP3 is better? Statistically he's like 100x better. .249WS/48 for his career to Kobe's .170. 7.5BPM. Kobe's *best* season he got .224WS/48, and that's the only season he was above .210. Kobe's career BPM is 3.9, and again he didn't have a *single season* that matched CP3's career 7.5BPM. At his peak, CP3 put up .292WS/48, 11.2BPM, and a 10.0 VORP, which absolutely smashes Kobe's best year: .210WS/48, 6.4BPM, 7.1VORP.

If anything these stats *underrate* CP3's defense. CP3 was the best defensive PG in the league for almost a decade, while also being the best offensive guard for a few years in there. I think this one is no contest: CP3 is the most underrated player of the generation, and I'm very glad he didn't play for the lakers.

Sure, but aren't stats ultimately just means to an end?

As opposed to what?

This is about how good a PLAYER was.  Outside of intangibles (which Paul and Stockton had in spades), what more do you have to measure the greatness / dominance of a player?

Please don't say championships, because i don't want tp go and bring the Robert Horry's, Derek Fisher's and Steve Kerr's into the discussion.

[crimson_stallion]

Nah.  He was never the best player on any of his championship teams.

You can pick and choose whatever stats you want to suggest Pau was more impactful during their back-to-back championship run, but it's flat-out wrong to suggest Kobe wasn't the best player on the Lakers in 2010 and 2011. He was one of the league leaders in scoring, he was the guy teams game-planned to stop every night, etc. Not sure about top ten of all time (though I think he at least deserves such consideration), but Kobe Bryant was absolutely the best player on two of his title teams.

Nah.  Pau carried those teams.

You are entitled to your opinion.  I emphatically disagree.

Gasol was always Robin to Kobe's Batman.

You are right, but a lot of that was personality.  I think Pau was at least as good of a player at that time.

I don't wish to start an argument on the matter, but IMHO Pau was never even close to dreaming of holding Kobe's jockstrap.

Kobe has always been a leader.  When his team needed him, he would put them on his shoulders and lane everything out there to try to carry them to a win. Nobody is perfect and so even Kobe failed and had bad games from time to time, but he lived for the big moments.

Gasol was always built to be a number two.  He was a quiet guy ego often shrunk to nothing On the big stage, and he just want an endlessly dominant player.  He was a really good player, but he wasn't the type of guy who could consistently single handedly carry a team to victories the way Kobe so often did with the Lakers.

If you're an opposing team, the first thing you'd talk about would always be - "what Will we do about Kobe".  When you with tgat out, then you worry about Pau.

Kobe = Jordan, Pau = Pippen.  Both great players, both critical to their team's success, but everybody knows who the real king was.

[Celtics4ever]

Kobe has always been a leader.  When his team needed him, he would put them on his shoulders and lane everything out there to try to carry them to a win. Nobody is perfect and so even Kobe failed and had bad games from time to time, but he lived for the big moments.

I call BS!

So much so, that quite a few players could stand playing with him.   He led the Lakers to get rid of Shaq, chased off Howard.   He was an elite player, but he was not a good team mate.   I like how he showed the rookies the ropes this year with the Lakers photo scam.

All to often this leadership, you spoke of, was more concerned about him than his team or teamates.

[crimson_stallion]

Kobe has always been a leader.  When his team needed him, he would put them on his shoulders and lane everything out there to try to carry them to a win. Nobody is perfect and so even Kobe failed and had bad games from time to time, but he lived for the big moments.

I call BS!

So much so, that quite a few players could stand playing with him.   He led the Lakers to get rid of Shaq, chased off Howard.   He was an elite player, but he was not a good team mate.   I like how he showed the rookies the ropes this year with the Lakers photo scam.

All to often this leadership, you spoke of, was more concerned about him than his team or teamates.

Who said he was s good teammate?

I said he was a good leader.

Different people lead in different ways.  Some guys lead with words of inspiration.  Some guys lead by example.

Kobe was the layter.  He led by being the first to show up at practice and the last to leave.  He led by playing through pain and through injuries because he refused to make excuses to give up.  He led by never being afraid to take the game winning shot, even if he just went 5-28 from the field.  He led by playing with 110% effort every single night, and by expecting the same from his teammates.

Kobe didn't push Howard away.  Howard said from the start that her never wanted to go to ther Lakers, and tgat he wouldn't re-sign of they traded for him.  After a while he warmed up a bit and changed his mind, but he clearly didn't like the idea of being there from the start. 

Shaq and Kobe separated because they were both superstars in their primes with superstar sized egos.  KG and Paul Pierce admitted themselves that they couldn't have come together the way they did of it was earlier in their career when they were in their prime, because egos would have gotten in the way.  But because they had all achieved their individual accolades, they didn't care about that stuff anymore and were ready to sacrifice for a title.

Kobe is the type of guy who pretty much every all- time great you'll ever hear from will have nothing but respect for, and that tells you all you need to know about him.

[Moranis]

Between Shaq and Pau, the Lakers had 3 seasons.  They missed the playoffs the first year and were eliminated in the first round the next two.  Pau joins the team and they are playing Boston in the NBA Finals.

Lebron first made the playoffs in his third season.  He has been in the playoffs every single season since then and has NEVER lost in the first round.  He has reached the Finals 5 consecutive years and it would likely take an injury to him for him not to be there 6 in a row this year.  No player since Russell has lead his team to 5 straight Finals (Bird and Magic each had 4 and each only won 2 during that stretch). 

[crimson_stallion]

Between Shaq and Pau, the Lakers had 3 seasons.  They missed the playoffs the first year and were eliminated in the first round the next two.  Pau joins the team and they are playing Boston in the NBA Finals.

Lebron first made the playoffs in his third season.  He has been in the playoffs every single season since then and has NEVER lost in the first round.  He has reached the Finals 5 consecutive years and it would likely take an injury to him for him not to be there 6 in a row this year.  No player since Russell has lead his team to 5 straight Finals (Bird and Magic each had 4 and each only won 2 during that stretch).

That tends to happen when you jump from one star studded team to another, and then leave the instant you feel your support talent is starting to fade out.

Not saying Lebron isn't a great player because he unquestionably is, but he's playing with Love and Kyrie in Cleveland and was playing with Wade and Bosh in Miami - and any team Lebron plays on seems to attract an unlimited number of veteran role players rushing to sign for below-market-value contracts in a hope at stealing a cheap ring (Ray Allen, Rashard Lewis, Birdman, Battier, Mo Williams, etc).  His playoff performance last year was amazing though, can't take that away from him. 

[Moranis]

Between Shaq and Pau, the Lakers had 3 seasons.  They missed the playoffs the first year and were eliminated in the first round the next two.  Pau joins the team and they are playing Boston in the NBA Finals.

Lebron first made the playoffs in his third season.  He has been in the playoffs every single season since then and has NEVER lost in the first round.  He has reached the Finals 5 consecutive years and it would likely take an injury to him for him not to be there 6 in a row this year.  No player since Russell has lead his team to 5 straight Finals (Bird and Magic each had 4 and each only won 2 during that stretch).

That tends to happen when you jump from one star studded team to another, and then leave the instant you feel your support talent is starting to fade out.

Not saying Lebron isn't a great player because he unquestionably is, but he's playing with Love and Kyrie in Cleveland and was playing with Wade and Bosh in Miami - and any team Lebron plays on seems to attract an unlimited number of veteran role players rushing to sign for below-market-value contracts in a hope at stealing a cheap ring (Ray Allen, Rashard Lewis, Birdman, Battier, Mo Williams, etc).  His playoff performance last year was amazing though, can't take that away from him.

Sure that explains the recent Finals experience, but he was on some awful teams in Cleveland and yet never lost in the 1st round of the playoffs and that 06/07 team that reached the Finals is probably the worst team in league history to play in the Finals (I mean that team was significantly worse than the team Lebron had in the Finals last year).  Lebron is a winner, plain and simple.  His skill set is such that he can play on a team or dregs and he will improve them and drag them to at least the 2nd round of the playoffs.  Kobe could never do something like that.  Kobe is one of the best pure scorers in league history, but he has stretches of great inefficiency and the rest of his offensive game doesn't come close to his scoring.  Defensively he had flashes of greatness, but was never a consistent defender and even at his best wasn't a candidate for defensive player of the year. 

Kobe is an all time great player, but he isn't a guy that is going to be in the discussion for the best player at his position or a top 10 player all time.  Frankly, I think he is at best the 4th best player of his general timeframe with James, Duncan, and O'Neal all clearly ahead of him and you could make an argument for Garnett (and maybe Chris Paul depending on what happens with the rest of his career).  From the current generation I expect Curry to pass him up and Durant certainly could.  He is clearly behind Bird, Jordan, Hakeem, and Magic from the prior generation and you could make good arguments for Moses, Dr. J, and the Mailman.  Then you have Kareem and West from the 70's and Bill, Wilt, and Oscar from the 60's with a good argument for Baylor.  So at best right now Kobe is 13th, at worst 18th (again right now).  As indicated above, I expect Curry to pass him up if he stays healthy and wouldn't be surprised if Durant and Paul do depending on how the rest of their careers shake out.  My list doesn't even include some very good players who I'd probably take before Kobe if I was starting a franchise (even though Kobe had a better career), you know guys like Dirk and Hondo. 

[Fan from VT]

All championship contenders have more than 1 star.

These are the rosters of LAL missed playoffs or 1st round exits with Kobe, ranked in order of minutes played.

'12-13
1 Kobe Bryant 
2 Dwight Howard
3 Metta World Peace
4 Jodie Meeks
5 Pau Gasol
6 Antawn Jamison
7 Steve Nash
8 Earl Clark
9 Steve Blake

'04-05
1 Chucky Atkins
2 Caron Butler
3 Kobe Bryant 
4 Lamar Odom
5 Chris Mihm
6 Jumaine Jones
7 Brian Grant
8 Brian Cook

'05-'06
1 Kobe Bryant 
2 Lamar Odom
3 Smush Parker
4 Kwame Brown
5 Devean George
6 Chris Mihm
7 Brian Cook
8 Sasha Vujacic
9 Luke Walton 
10 Andrew Bynum

'06-07
1 Kobe Bryant 
2 Smush Parker 
3 Lamar Odom
4 Luke Walton 
5 Andrew Bynum
6 Maurice Evans
7 Kwame Brown
8 Jordan Farmar
9 Ronny Turiaf
10 Brian Cook
11 Vladimir Radmanovic



Here are Lebron's pre-Miami rosters

'04-05 (2nd season, missed playoffs at 42-40)
1 LeBron James
2 Jeff McInnis
3 Zydrunas Ilgauskas
4 Drew Gooden 
5 Eric Snow 
6 Ira Newble
7 Robert Traylor
8 Lucious Harris
9 Anderson Varejao
10 Sasha Pavlovic

'05-06 (lost 2nd rnd)
1 LeBron James
2 Eric Snow
3 Zydrunas Ilgauskas
4 Drew Gooden 
5 Damon Jones
6 Donyell Marshall
7 Larry Hughes
8 Ronald Murray
9 Sasha Pavlovic
10 Anderson Varejao

'06-07 Lost finals
1 LeBron James
2 Larry Hughes 
3 Drew Gooden 
4 Zydrunas Ilgauskas
5 Anderson Varejao
6 Eric Snow
7 Sasha Pavlovic 
8 Donyell Marshall 
9 Damon Jones 
10 Daniel Gibson

'07-'08 (lost 2nd rnd, game 7, to champs)
1 LeBron James 
2 Zydrunas Ilgauskas 
3 Daniel Gibson
4 Devin Brown
5 Drew Gooden
6 Damon Jones
7 Anderson Varejao
8 Larry Hughes 
9 Sasha Pavlovic
10 Delonte West

'08-09
1 LeBron James
2 Mo Williams
3 Anderson Varejao
4 Delonte West
5 Daniel Gibson
6 Zydrunas Ilgauskas
7 Wally Szczerbiak
8 Ben Wallace
9 Sasha Pavlovic
10 J.J. Hickson

'09-10
1 LeBron James
2 Mo Williams
3 Anthony Parker
4 Anderson Varejao
5 J.J. Hickson
6 Delonte West
7 Zydrunas Ilgauskas
8 Shaquille O'Neal
9 Daniel Gibson
10 Jamario Moon




I think it's clear Lebron is significantly better than kobe, and has had obviously more team success with worse teammates.

[bdm860]

Probably not fair to judge or compare Kobe by missing the playoffs 1 year and those 3 first round exits during his prime.  Let's not forget Kobe was playing out West, the same conference in which Tim Duncan and the almighty Spurs have been knocked out 4x's  in the 1st round, yet nobody is using that as a knock on Duncan.

[Donoghus]

Personally, I think it'd be nuts to claim that Kobe is better than Lebron.  I think it was years ago that Lebron surpassed Kobe. 

Lebron probably won't catch Kobe in rings but, besides that, Lebron is the better player in almost every way.

[Moranis]

Probably not fair to judge or compare Kobe by missing the playoffs 1 year and those 3 first round exits during his prime.  Let's not forget Kobe was playing out West, the same conference in which Tim Duncan and the almighty Spurs have been knocked out 4x's  in the 1st round, yet nobody is using that as a knock on Duncan.

Because Duncan is in the playoffs not sitting at home watching.

[passesofftodj]

I am no Kobe fan AT ALL, and he is definitely somewhat overrated, but to suggest that Stockton or CP3 were better is ridiculous.  Maravich?  He didn't even score half as many points as Kobe and did nothing in the playoffs.  Anyone suggesting that is taking college stats into consideration, he wasn't close to a top 10 NBA player. 

Pau more impactful?  Kobe was the #1 option and Finals MVP.  I LOVE KG, but he does not rank higher All-Time.  You can't knock Lebron for going to Miami to win rings or Kobe for needing Shaq and not give the same consideration to KG's ring.  Sure, I am still p---ed that the refs paraded Kobe to the line to win the 2010 series but it is what it is...

Kobe is definitely top 20 and borderline top 10.  I would put him around 12th All-Time.  If he had been a better teammate (yes, a big if) he would be close to Magic, Bird, Lebron and ahead of Duncan.  He is certainly a tick above Dirk, Ewing types and right there clustered with Duncan, West, Robertson, Big O, Olajuwon, maybe Dr J.  You could argue him as high as 9th and I wouldn't have a serious problem with it (Jordan, Russell, Wilt, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Lebron, Shaq are the top 8 to me in approximate order).

Why is it ridiculous to say CP3 is better? Statistically he's like 100x better. .249WS/48 for his career to Kobe's .170. 7.5BPM. Kobe's *best* season he got .224WS/48, and that's the only season he was above .210. Kobe's career BPM is 3.9, and again he didn't have a *single season* that matched CP3's career 7.5BPM. At his peak, CP3 put up .292WS/48, 11.2BPM, and a 10.0 VORP, which absolutely smashes Kobe's best year: .210WS/48, 6.4BPM, 7.1VORP.

If anything these stats *underrate* CP3's defense. CP3 was the best defensive PG in the league for almost a decade, while also being the best offensive guard for a few years in there. I think this one is no contest: CP3 is the most underrated player of the generation, and I'm very glad he didn't play for the lakers.

Have you watched CP3 in big games as well as Kobe?  That should answer your question.  Statistics can indicate many things but I have yet to see one that indicates end of game performance in clutch situations and accounts for injuries, etc.  Kobe has never been afraid of the moment, while CP3 has never led his team to anything resembling a conference finals, much less a championship.

Especially as a PG, you have to win.  What has CP3  won in the NBA?  You cannot just discount all the injuries that have kept him out of key series and all the losses when he has been playing. 

I agree CP3 is tremendous defensively, underrated in general, and he is an instant HOF player.  I would not put him much  ahead of Stockton though for example, as Stockton took over many more important games, won more, and was a better passer.  CP3 clearly a better defender.  I think Stockton was better at getting teammates involved and the PNR with Malone was obviously one of the great plays in NBA history.  It is also absurd to put Stockton ahead of Kobe.

Rings are important.  The Horry argument is a strawman because guys like that are role players who make big shots, not players who win MVP's and score 81 in a game.  Even if you want to argue Kobe wasn't the best player on most of those teams there is ZERO chance they win ANY of those titles without Kobe on the team.  You cannot say the same about guys like Kerr, Fisher, and Horry.

Believe me, I love CP3 as a person more than Kobe but CP3 is more like a top 25-35 type player not top 10.  He will rise if he can somehow get a ring, but I personally don't see any scenario where he is considered better than Kobe.

[Moranis]

Kobe is much more like Pippen than Jordan in the rings department though.  The Lakers aren't winning 5 titles without Kobe, but he was by and large the 2nd most important on those title teams (certainly the first three and an argument for the last two).  That is what separates Kobe from most of the other players on the all time list even the guys with fewer titles (like Wilt, Lebron, etc.) because those guys were clearly the best player on their title teams.

[Roy H.]

Personally, I think it'd be nuts to claim that Kobe is better than Lebron.  I think it was years ago that Lebron surpassed Kobe. 

Lebron probably won't catch Kobe in rings but, besides that, Lebron is the better player in almost every way.

Yeah, if you let Lebron play with Prime Shaq for the first eight seasons of his career, I think he does better than three rings.