Author Topic: Unbiased: is Kobe a top 10 all time player?  (Read 7379 times)

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Re: Unbiased: is Kobe a top 10 all time player?
« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2016, 04:53:55 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Its such a tough one to call honestly, because in terms of his one-off achievements (81 points, etc) youd think he should be in that discussion, but in terms of his career averages i don't think his numbers indicate that he is top 10 worthy.

Much as i hate to admit it, LeBron has much more impressive career numbers.  As do guys like Magic, MJ, Oscar Robinson, Wilt, etc.

Then you have a guy like Malone, who always gets disrespected in these discussions but was probably the most dominant PF ever to play the game.

Then you have guys like Jerry West, Russell, Kareeem, etc.

Then there's your David Robinson's (71 points is crazy for a big man, and his career stats are nuts) and Hakeem ( only guy to record two quadrouple doubles, arguably the best all round big man ever to play).

To be honest i am probably going to lean towards no as far as top 10 goes...but if hes not top 10 he's definately not far off.

Re: Unbiased: is Kobe a top 10 all time player?
« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2016, 04:54:22 PM »

Offline max215

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Top 10: no chance
Top 15: most likely
Top 20: definitely
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Re: Unbiased: is Kobe a top 10 all time player?
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2016, 05:52:23 PM »

Offline alldaboston

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I think he is a top 5 player of all time. Hard not to pick Kobe if you place him in the generation of the player he is being compared to. Like Kobe would have been a prolific scorer if he was transplanted into the 70's. Only clear cut player that are better than him are MJ, Magic, and Bird(healthy)

So you have him above Wilt, Russell, Kareem, and LeBron?

It's tough to pick and choose between all these legends. And while Dennis says he's a top 5 player, I wouldn't go that far. But he's definitely a top 10 player in the NBA. The only guys who truly, truly are better are (in no order) MJ, Magic, Russell, Kareem, Bird, maybe Wilt. That's it.
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Re: Unbiased: is Kobe a top 10 all time player?
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2016, 06:12:03 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I think a lot of younger generation people get caught up in the fact that the game has changed, players were athletic in a different way and so today's players would have dominated the game of the past and so should be put ahead of older players.

I look at it as if the players of yesteryear got paid the money that the current players do(many players in the 50's, 60's and very early 70's needed to get other jobs because they were paid so little and so couldn't work out all year), could afford personal trainers and dietitionists, had access to modern training techniques and were played limited minutes to promote longevity, they would have dominated in today's game as well. There is zero doubt in my mind that Bill Russell, Bob Cousy and John Havlicek, given modern diets, modern training techniques, modern superstar minutes would have been Hall of Fame superstars in the modern era.

For that reason, I don't see Kobe being any more of a superstar on the All-time list of greats any more than Oscar Robinson, John Havlicek, Jerry West or Julius Erving. All superstars. All ranked somewhere between 11-20 in the All-time list of players. But not top 10.

My top 10 in no particular order

Jordan
Bird
Magic
Kareem
Russell
Wilt
Duncan
Shaq
Lebron
Hakeem
« Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 06:20:41 PM by nickagneta »

Re: Unbiased: is Kobe a top 10 all time player?
« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2016, 06:18:00 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Top 15 maybe.

Re: Unbiased: is Kobe a top 10 all time player?
« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2016, 06:46:23 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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I think a lot of younger generation people get caught up in the fact that the game has changed, players were athletic in a different way and so today's players would have dominated the game of the past and so should be put ahead of older players.

I look at it as if the players of yesteryear got paid the money that the current players do(many players in the 50's, 60's and very early 70's needed to get other jobs because they were paid so little and so couldn't work out all year), could afford personal trainers and dietitionists, had access to modern training techniques and were played limited minutes to promote longevity, they would have dominated in today's game as well. There is zero doubt in my mind that Bill Russell, Bob Cousy and John Havlicek, given modern diets, modern training techniques, modern superstar minutes would have been Hall of Fame superstars in the modern era.

For that reason, I don't see Kobe being any more of a superstar on the All-time list of greats any more than Oscar Robinson, John Havlicek, Jerry West or Julius Erving. All superstars. All ranked somewhere between 11-20 in the All-time list of players. But not top 10.

My top 10 in no particular order

Jordan
Bird
Magic
Kareem
Russell
Wilt
Duncan
Shaq
Lebron
Hakeem
That top-10 is about right, though I probably would not put Lebron in there, yet.  I would replace him with Kobe, the third leading scorer of all time.

Re: Unbiased: is Kobe a top 10 all time player?
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2016, 07:05:19 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Nope, only in his mind.

Re: Unbiased: is Kobe a top 10 all time player?
« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2016, 07:11:07 PM »

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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He's like 15th or so for me and I think Steph is about to pass him

Re: Unbiased: is Kobe a top 10 all time player?
« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2016, 07:12:56 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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I think a lot of younger generation people get caught up in the fact that the game has changed, players were athletic in a different way and so today's players would have dominated the game of the past and so should be put ahead of older players.

I look at it as if the players of yesteryear got paid the money that the current players do(many players in the 50's, 60's and very early 70's needed to get other jobs because they were paid so little and so couldn't work out all year), could afford personal trainers and dietitionists, had access to modern training techniques and were played limited minutes to promote longevity, they would have dominated in today's game as well. There is zero doubt in my mind that Bill Russell, Bob Cousy and John Havlicek, given modern diets, modern training techniques, modern superstar minutes would have been Hall of Fame superstars in the modern era.

For that reason, I don't see Kobe being any more of a superstar on the All-time list of greats any more than Oscar Robinson, John Havlicek, Jerry West or Julius Erving. All superstars. All ranked somewhere between 11-20 in the All-time list of players. But not top 10.

My top 10 in no particular order

Jordan
Bird
Magic
Kareem
Russell
Wilt
Duncan
Shaq
Lebron
Hakeem
That top-10 is about right, though I probably would not put Lebron in there, yet.  I would replace him with Kobe, the third leading scorer of all time.

In my book, as unbiased as I can be, Kobe is not top 10, but somewhere in the top 15. He is, so far, certainly at least above Lebron tough. 5 rings, including beating the celtics in game 7 of the Finals, and incredible scoring proficiency. Overall true grit and toughness and a top 10 desire to win.

Lebron only won 2 rings, and he barely won those , all with teaming up with 2 of the top 10 players in the league at the time. He disappears often in big games, and doesn't have the desire or grit of guys like Bird, Russell, Duncan, Kobe, etc.

Re: Unbiased: is Kobe a top 10 all time player?
« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2016, 10:41:51 PM »

Offline loco_91

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I am no Kobe fan AT ALL, and he is definitely somewhat overrated, but to suggest that Stockton or CP3 were better is ridiculous.  Maravich?  He didn't even score half as many points as Kobe and did nothing in the playoffs.  Anyone suggesting that is taking college stats into consideration, he wasn't close to a top 10 NBA player. 

Pau more impactful?  Kobe was the #1 option and Finals MVP.  I LOVE KG, but he does not rank higher All-Time.  You can't knock Lebron for going to Miami to win rings or Kobe for needing Shaq and not give the same consideration to KG's ring.  Sure, I am still p---ed that the refs paraded Kobe to the line to win the 2010 series but it is what it is...

Kobe is definitely top 20 and borderline top 10.  I would put him around 12th All-Time.  If he had been a better teammate (yes, a big if) he would be close to Magic, Bird, Lebron and ahead of Duncan.  He is certainly a tick above Dirk, Ewing types and right there clustered with Duncan, West, Robertson, Big O, Olajuwon, maybe Dr J.  You could argue him as high as 9th and I wouldn't have a serious problem with it (Jordan, Russell, Wilt, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Lebron, Shaq are the top 8 to me in approximate order).

Why is it ridiculous to say CP3 is better? Statistically he's like 100x better. .249WS/48 for his career to Kobe's .170. 7.5BPM. Kobe's *best* season he got .224WS/48, and that's the only season he was above .210. Kobe's career BPM is 3.9, and again he didn't have a *single season* that matched CP3's career 7.5BPM. At his peak, CP3 put up .292WS/48, 11.2BPM, and a 10.0 VORP, which absolutely smashes Kobe's best year: .210WS/48, 6.4BPM, 7.1VORP.

If anything these stats *underrate* CP3's defense. CP3 was the best defensive PG in the league for almost a decade, while also being the best offensive guard for a few years in there. I think this one is no contest: CP3 is the most underrated player of the generation, and I'm very glad he didn't play for the lakers.

Re: Unbiased: is Kobe a top 10 all time player?
« Reply #40 on: May 04, 2016, 11:44:03 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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FWIW, my top 10:

Russell
Wilt
Jordan
Bird
Magic
Kareem
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq
Lebron

My next five/six:

KG
Havlicek
Malone
Kobe
Stockton/Irving

Sure, rings are important so some folks won't like that order.  Too bad.  Robert Horry is not on this list either.

The rest of the top-25 would include guys like David Robinson, Unseld, Heinsohn, Oscar Robertson, Elgin Baylor (who, now that I think about it, should probably be higher - geez this is not easy) and George Muresan and Bob Cousy belong high on this list for their transformative impact on the game.

Karl Anthony Townes will probably be on this list some day.

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Re: Unbiased: is Kobe a top 10 all time player?
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2016, 12:21:35 AM »

Offline D Dub

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I am no Kobe fan AT ALL, and he is definitely somewhat overrated, but to suggest that Stockton or CP3 were better is ridiculous.  Maravich?  He didn't even score half as many points as Kobe and did nothing in the playoffs.  Anyone suggesting that is taking college stats into consideration, he wasn't close to a top 10 NBA player. 

Pau more impactful?  Kobe was the #1 option and Finals MVP.  I LOVE KG, but he does not rank higher All-Time.  You can't knock Lebron for going to Miami to win rings or Kobe for needing Shaq and not give the same consideration to KG's ring.  Sure, I am still p---ed that the refs paraded Kobe to the line to win the 2010 series but it is what it is...

Kobe is definitely top 20 and borderline top 10.  I would put him around 12th All-Time.  If he had been a better teammate (yes, a big if) he would be close to Magic, Bird, Lebron and ahead of Duncan.  He is certainly a tick above Dirk, Ewing types and right there clustered with Duncan, West, Robertson, Big O, Olajuwon, maybe Dr J.  You could argue him as high as 9th and I wouldn't have a serious problem with it (Jordan, Russell, Wilt, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Lebron, Shaq are the top 8 to me in approximate order).

Why is it ridiculous to say CP3 is better? Statistically he's like 100x better. .249WS/48 for his career to Kobe's .170. 7.5BPM. Kobe's *best* season he got .224WS/48, and that's the only season he was above .210. Kobe's career BPM is 3.9, and again he didn't have a *single season* that matched CP3's career 7.5BPM. At his peak, CP3 put up .292WS/48, 11.2BPM, and a 10.0 VORP, which absolutely smashes Kobe's best year: .210WS/48, 6.4BPM, 7.1VORP.

If anything these stats *underrate* CP3's defense. CP3 was the best defensive PG in the league for almost a decade, while also being the best offensive guard for a few years in there. I think this one is no contest: CP3 is the most underrated player of the generation, and I'm very glad he didn't play for the lakers.

Sure, but aren't stats ultimately just means to an end?   

Re: Unbiased: is Kobe a top 10 all time player?
« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2016, 02:54:11 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Nah.  He was never the best player on any of his championship teams.

You can pick and choose whatever stats you want to suggest Pau was more impactful during their back-to-back championship run, but it's flat-out wrong to suggest Kobe wasn't the best player on the Lakers in 2010 and 2011. He was one of the league leaders in scoring, he was the guy teams game-planned to stop every night, etc. Not sure about top ten of all time (though I think he at least deserves such consideration), but Kobe Bryant was absolutely the best player on two of his title teams.
Nah.  Pau carried those teams.

Re: Unbiased: is Kobe a top 10 all time player?
« Reply #43 on: May 05, 2016, 02:55:37 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Kobe was great but top 20 great, no.

Re: Unbiased: is Kobe a top 10 all time player?
« Reply #44 on: May 05, 2016, 06:39:17 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Nah.  He was never the best player on any of his championship teams.

You can pick and choose whatever stats you want to suggest Pau was more impactful during their back-to-back championship run, but it's flat-out wrong to suggest Kobe wasn't the best player on the Lakers in 2010 and 2011. He was one of the league leaders in scoring, he was the guy teams game-planned to stop every night, etc. Not sure about top ten of all time (though I think he at least deserves such consideration), but Kobe Bryant was absolutely the best player on two of his title teams.
Nah.  Pau carried those teams.

You are entitled to your opinion.  I emphatically disagree.

Gasol was always Robin to Kobe's Batman.