Unbiased: is Kobe a top 10 all time player?

[Big333223]

When I think about ranking Kobe, I think about 2 things:

1. His numbers and success are undeniable. Anybody complaining (legitimately) about his being a bad teammate has to reckon with 5 championships, 7 Finals appearances, and 12 seasons winning more than 60% of his games. His teams were very successful over many years on top of all of the individual statistics. 2 scoring titles, 4 times leading the league is points scored, the 81 point game, the 33,600 points plus good defense, rebounding, and assist numbers. He's clearly a great, all time player.

2. In 2004, the Lakers were the better team in the Finals and he decided he'd rather lose as the team's #1 than win as the team's #2. I don't know that there is any other instance in the history of the league of a player so clearly choosing himself over his team. He tanked the whole team with his play because he couldn't handle being the second best player on a champion. I blame him for the '13 season being as much of a disaster as it was, too. This just has to be taken into account.

So I've got Jordan, Bird, Magic, Russell, Kareem, Wilt, Lebron, Hakeem, Duncan, and Shaq ahead of Kobe, easily. That puts him out of the top ten.

[slamtheking]

When I think about ranking Kobe, I think about 2 things:

1. His numbers and success are undeniable. Anybody complaining (legitimately) about his being a bad teammate has to reckon with 5 championships, 7 Finals appearances, and 12 seasons winning more than 60% of his games. His teams were very successful over many years on top of all of the individual statistics. 2 scoring titles, 4 times leading the league is points scored, the 81 point game, the 33,600 points plus good defense, rebounding, and assist numbers. He's clearly a great, all time player.

2. In 2004, the Lakers were the better team in the Finals and he decided he'd rather lose as the team's #1 than win as the team's #2. I don't know that there is any other instance in the history of the league of a player so clearly choosing himself over his team. He tanked the whole team with his play because he couldn't handle being the second best player on a champion. I blame him for the '13 season being as much of a disaster as it was, too. This just has to be taken into account.

So I've got Jordan, Bird, Magic, Russell, Kareem, Wilt, Lebron, Hakeem, Duncan, and Shaq ahead of Kobe, easily. That puts him out of the top ten.

pretty much spot on.

I'd offer Oscar Robertson as another easy pick ahead of Kobe.  Could make a case for Jerry West and Pete Maravich as well.  both big time scorers that were much better at functioning with their teammates.  I'd probably take John Stockton over Kobe as well. 

from my perspective, Kobe is a top scorer and has a competitive spirit that goes as far as trying like hell to win but only on his terms.  for me, that pushes him down the list of great players because NBA history is loaded with excellent scorers that functioned much better with their teammates.  one other thing, Kobe's titles came because he had a top big man with him each time -- Shaq and Pau.  without either of those guys, Kobe's missing a lot of jewelry on his fingers.

[Fafnir]

I don't think he's even close.

He wasn't the best (or second best) player of his era, hard to be top ten all time.

[Snakehead]

I don't think he's even close.

He wasn't the best (or second best) player of his era, hard to be top ten all time.

TP Faf.

I'd probably have him as the 4th or 5th best player of his era

Give me Shaq, KG, or Duncan over him for sure.  For guys in at the same time.  Then for sure LeBron after if we are counting him as part.

[loco_91]

I think Kobe is pretty overrated. He was never that efficient and he was never a good defender (at times, he was a very bad defender). For most of his career, he wasn't even the best player on his own team (Shaq and later Gasol). Just looking at close contemporaries I'm not sure he's even top 5:

Lebron
Duncan
Shaq
KG
CP3.

I take CP3 over Kobe because he had a long stretch as the best offensive guard *and* the best defensive PG in the league simultaneously.

[LarBrd33]

Nah.  He was never the best player on any of his championship teams.

[TheFlex]

Nah.  He was never the best player on any of his championship teams.

You can pick and choose whatever stats you want to suggest Pau was more impactful during their back-to-back championship run, but it's flat-out wrong to suggest Kobe wasn't the best player on the Lakers in 2010 and 2011. He was one of the league leaders in scoring, he was the guy teams game-planned to stop every night, etc. Not sure about top ten of all time (though I think he at least deserves such consideration), but Kobe Bryant was absolutely the best player on two of his title teams.

[GratefulCs]

Nah.  He was never the best player on any of his championship teams.

bingo

[D Dub]

2. In 2004, the Lakers were the better team in the Finals and he decided he'd rather lose as the team's #1 than win as the team's #2. I don't know that there is any other instance in the history of the league of a player so clearly choosing himself over his team. He tanked the whole team with his play because he couldn't handle being the second best player on a champion. I blame him for the '13 season being as much of a disaster as it was, too. This just has to be taken into account.

Lebron did this his first year with Miami against Dallas in the Finals. 
Sulked around knowing that Wade would get the MVP if they had won. 

[Big333223]

Nah.  He was never the best player on any of his championship teams.

You can pick and choose whatever stats you want to suggest Pau was more impactful during their back-to-back championship run, but it's flat-out wrong to suggest Kobe wasn't the best player on the Lakers in 2010 and 2011. He was one of the league leaders in scoring, he was the guy teams game-planned to stop every night, etc. Not sure about top ten of all time (though I think he at least deserves such consideration), but Kobe Bryant was absolutely the best player on two of his title teams.

I'm a big enough fan of Gasol to think that he deserved the Finals MVP in '10 but I think Kobe was clearly the best player on those teams.

[Big333223]

2. In 2004, the Lakers were the better team in the Finals and he decided he'd rather lose as the team's #1 than win as the team's #2. I don't know that there is any other instance in the history of the league of a player so clearly choosing himself over his team. He tanked the whole team with his play because he couldn't handle being the second best player on a champion. I blame him for the '13 season being as much of a disaster as it was, too. This just has to be taken into account.

Lebron did this his first year with Miami against Dallas in the Finals. 
Sulked around knowing that Wade would get the MVP if they had won.

That's interesting. I had the opposite interpretation of that series. It felt more to me like Lebron was trying too hard to allow Wade to do his thing when Lebron was actually the better player and should've taken more control. It pains me to write that, because Wade is one of  my all time favorite non-Celtics but Lebron was always the better player and I think they lost that first year because he was being too conciliatory.

[D Dub]

Finals success alone should put Kobe ahead of KG, Lebron and potentially Shaq. 

But then there are guys like MJ, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Russell, Wilt who automatically take the top 6 spots. 

Is he better than Hakeem?  Perhaps.
Duncan?  No.
Oscar?  Probably not.
West?  Yes.

In my view, Kobe's combination of competitiveness and longevity makes him truly elite.  Despite it being a side show, being able to come up with a 60pt performance on your last game of a 20 year career is an absolute athletic feet unlike anything we've ever seen.  That, on top of anchoring one of the three greatest teams in NBA history, a back to back & a three-peat, the 81pt game, etc etc.  The way played was hard to watch sometimes, but you can't knock his results.

Maybe Lebron un-seats him someday, but for now I'd put Kobe ahead of him right at number 10 overall.  LBJ will need to work on that 2-4 finals record, imho, to be taken more seriously. 

[passesofftodj]

I am no Kobe fan AT ALL, and he is definitely somewhat overrated, but to suggest that Stockton or CP3 were better is ridiculous.  Maravich?  He didn't even score half as many points as Kobe and did nothing in the playoffs.  Anyone suggesting that is taking college stats into consideration, he wasn't close to a top 10 NBA player. 

Pau more impactful?  Kobe was the #1 option and Finals MVP.  I LOVE KG, but he does not rank higher All-Time.  You can't knock Lebron for going to Miami to win rings or Kobe for needing Shaq and not give the same consideration to KG's ring.  Sure, I am still p---ed that the refs paraded Kobe to the line to win the 2010 series but it is what it is...

Kobe is definitely top 20 and borderline top 10.  I would put him around 12th All-Time.  If he had been a better teammate (yes, a big if) he would be close to Magic, Bird, Lebron and ahead of Duncan.  He is certainly a tick above Dirk, Ewing types and right there clustered with Duncan, West, Robertson, Big O, Olajuwon, maybe Dr J.  You could argue him as high as 9th and I wouldn't have a serious problem with it (Jordan, Russell, Wilt, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Lebron, Shaq are the top 8 to me in approximate order).

[Denis998]

I think he is a top 5 player of all time. Hard not to pick Kobe if you place him in the generation of the player he is being compared to. Like Kobe would have been a prolific scorer if he was transplanted into the 70's. Only clear cut player that are better than him are MJ, Magic, and Bird(healthy) 

[Celtic Fan Forever]

I think he is a top 5 player of all time. Hard not to pick Kobe if you place him in the generation of the player he is being compared to. Like Kobe would have been a prolific scorer if he was transplanted into the 70's. Only clear cut player that are better than him are MJ, Magic, and Bird(healthy)

So you have him above Wilt, Russell, Kareem, and LeBron?