Unbiased: is Kobe a top 10 all time player?

[Celtic Fan Forever]

I am the first to admit I hate Kobe a lot less than most Celtic fans do. I respect his game and what he's accomplished even though I obviously root against him since he's a Laker. But the love for Kobe I've been witnessing from some friends and colleagues is a little absurd. I have one friend who won't accept Kobe as any less than the 2nd best player of all time.

In my opinion, he's fringe top 10. Probably 11-13. I listed 10 guys that I can't reasonably put him ahead of, and Jerry West and Hakeem could very easily be on that list. So I'm going 13, I would accept as high as 11. But in my mind there is no conceivable way to put Kobe in the top 10.

I know a lot of us hate Kobe, but I'm really looking for objective opinions here.



MJ
Russell
Magic
Kareem
LeBron
Wilt
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Big O

[greece66]

[Donoghus]

Possibly.  But if so, I'm in agreement that he's at the fringe.   

In some order, I'd put the following ahead of him.

Jordan, Russell, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Lebron, Duncan, Oscar, West. 

IMO, he's fighting it out with Oscar & West. 

EDIT:  The more I think of it, he's also fighting it out with Hakeem & Shaq.

[Clench123]

No

[Roy H.]

I agree with others: top-15 sounds more realistic than top-10 to me.

[greece66]

These lists are extremely difficult to agree upon because we do not have clear criteria.

Comparing players who played in the 70s when bball was in many respects a different sport, with modern day players is in many ways unfair. The result is that the lists are always skewed in favour of the younger generations of players.

But even if we focus mainly in the post 1980 era, I would like Hakeem, Chuck, Stockton, Malone, Nowitzki, KG and LBJ to be part of the conversation.

Especially Hakeem and LBJ.

[moiso]

Top 15 or 20 maybe.  I'd take a prime Wade over Kobe because Wade was always a team player, not looking out only for himself James Harden style.

[Eja117]

While I believe in rings I don't think they're all equal. For example, when Bron teamed up with his buddies in the salary cap era those rings aren't worth nearly as much as the Celts/Lakers/Sixers or even the Pistons rings of the 80s.

I place Duncan's rings above his. 

He also has to be knocked for not making it work with Shaq.

I might place him at 11

[Kane3387]

Top 15 to me but not top 10. I wiukd start my franchise with the following guys over him.


Jordan
Magic
Bird
Russell
Shaq
Kareem
Wilt
Olajuwon
Duncan
Lebron

[Moranis]

Nope and I don't think he is really all that close. 

[alldaboston]

Yes he is.

[greece66]

Yes he is.

No, he isn't

[bdm860]

Not many people can match his overall accolades.

5x champion.  Behind Russell, Jordan, Kareem, tied with Magic.  Will either be tied or behind Duncan.

11x 1st Team NBA.  Tied with Karl Malone, ahead of everybody else in contention for Top 10, will probably be passed by LeBron.  Duncan, Jordan, West, Kareem have 10.  LeBron, Robertson, Bird, Magic have 9.  Shaq has 8, Wilt has 7.

15x total All NBA Team selections (1st, 2nd, 3rd).  Tied with Kareem and Duncan.  Shaq has 14, West has 12. Jordan and LeBron 11. (3rd team didn't exist until 1989 though).

9x 1st Team All Defense.  Tied with Jordan.  Duncan has 8.  Well ahead of everyone else in the conversation.

12x total All Defense selections (1st and 2nd).  Duncan has 15, Kareem 11, Jordan 9.  No one else in the conversation is close.  (All Defensive teams didn't start until '69 though.)

2x Finals MVP.  Behind Jordan, Duncan, Magic, Shaq.  Tied with Kareem, Bird, LeBron, Hakeem.

1x MVP.  Behind Kareem, Jordan, Russell, Chamberlain, LeBron, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Erving (with ABA).


I think Kobe gets points for longevity, but we're also getting into an era where careers will probably be longer due to skipping college and/or one-and-dones.  He's definitely in the conversation.

But I think that one MVP and two Finals MVPs really hurts him.  As good as he was, the league never seemed to be worried about "how do we stop Kobe" like they were with Shaq or LeBron or MJ or Bird or Magic.  Sure he was constantly one of the top 5 players in the league, but he was never so far head and shoulders above everyone else like some of the other greats seemed to be.

Ahead of him: Jordan, Magic, Larry, Kareem, Shaq, LeBron, Wilt, Duncan, Russell.

Possibly ahead of, but in the conversation with: West, Robertson, Hakeem, Erving, Baylor, Pettit.

[alldaboston]

Yes he is.

No, he isn't

lol. TP. That made me burst out laughing haha (the gif, not your opinion that he's not top 10)

[Granath]

SI did this in February and had him 12th.

http://www.si.com/nba/2016/02/09/michael-jordan-lebron-james-stephen-curry-nba-greatest

While I don't think their rankings are perfect ('Bron and Kareem are too high, Russell too low), in general they look about right.