Author Topic: Would you trade IT + 3-5 pick for Jimmy Butler ?  (Read 13831 times)

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Re: Would you trade IT + 3-5 pick for Jimmy Butler ?
« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2016, 11:39:54 PM »

Offline Lucky17

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Trade

To Bulls: IT, 2016 nets pick, Celtics pick, 35th pick, Amir
To Celtics: Butler, Barstow


Celtics lineup after trade (not considering draft or FA results)

C- ?
PF-  KO
SF- Crowder
SG- Butler (also primary ball handler)
PG- AB  (guards pg anyways)

C-  Jerebko
PF- Mickey/Barstow
SF- ?
SG-  Smart
PG-  Rozier
 

yay or nay?

Nay and this makes no sense.  Jimmy Butler did not make the playoffs this year.  Isaiah Thomas did.  Why oh why on earth would trade IT and a Top-3 pick for him????

By this logic, half the league's players shouldn't be targeted in trade, even if Ainge buys low on them.

Jimmy Butler and the Bulls were clearly worse than Isaiah Thomas and the Celtics this year.  By your logic, we should react to these facts by trading Isaiah for Butler, throw in Amir Johnson to make salaries match...oh and for good measure give Chicago a top-3 pick.

I like my logic better.

Your "logic" includes a strawman fallacy.

I'm on record as wanting to keep IT to pair him with Butler.

What is a "straw man fallacy" about the fact that the Bulls were worse than the Celtics this year?  What more do you want for factual accuracy (the opposite of fallacy) then that?  The original post suggested trading:  the best player from the better team + a top 3 pick + another first round pick + our starting center (and a high 2nd round pick for good measure) for the best player on the worse team.

That is not a straw man and is a direct response to his idea that Butler is worth Thomas and all that other stuff.   He is not.  Glad you are on record on that tho.

The straw man was saying that I wanted to move IT and the pick for Butler. I don't -- unless Durant is in the fold.

Glad you see what I was saying.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 11:59:04 PM by Lucky17 »
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Re: Would you trade IT + 3-5 pick for Jimmy Butler ?
« Reply #46 on: May 01, 2016, 12:27:41 AM »

Offline chambers

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Most people seem to be ignoring that triboy said the pick is #3 or worse.
Who are we getting with #3 right now that looks like an All Star? The drop off from Simmons/Ingram to the others is enormous.
To triboy, I think we're giving up too much in this trade but I understand your reasoning.

I don't know how many times I have to say this, but I will anyway.

Butler is a top 10 scorer in the NBA.
He is also a top 10 defender.
He is 26.

He is like a steroid version of Jae Crowder at the shooting guard position and he's being paid $17 million and is locked into his contract for another 3 seasons.

IT is just so cheap that I don't think we could give him up in a Butler deal. Yeah he's a defensive liability but he's an amazing scorer.

Butler is not overrated. He is underrated.
He is arguably the best 2 way shooting guard in the NBA. Can guard multiple positions, get a reasonably efficient 20 ppg 5 rebounds 4 assists whilst playing elite defense on guys like Curry, Harden and Klay Thompson.
He is not a superstar top 5 NBA player, but he's a top 10-15 NBA player and would make us a true contender with Durant here.
Even if we don't get Durant here, having Butler locked up for 3 more years would be a huge lure for other free agents.

But in summary, I'd prefer to keep IT and Crowder in a Jimmy Butler trade.
I think they'll ask for Marcus Smart because they'll be rebuilding from the ground up with that Brooklyn pick and their own picks.

You really think Butler's a top ten scorer in the league? I love Butler too, but I think that's quite a stretch.

Before his injury he was 9th in the NBA with 23 points a game. After the injury he finished 16th at the end of the season (obviously had to work back to form and played whilst still recovering to try and make playoffs).

Dude is underrated.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Would you trade IT + 3-5 pick for Jimmy Butler ?
« Reply #47 on: May 01, 2016, 12:37:38 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Butler is an amazing 2 way guard

He can shoot, dribble, pass, drive and finish (all around).  On the defensive end, I would have to say he is top 3 and some would argue the best SG defender in the league.  Also can defend many sfs

Overrated?  No way

Re: Would you trade IT + 3-5 pick for Jimmy Butler ?
« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2016, 02:02:21 AM »

Offline celticmania

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No way.

Re: Would you trade IT + 3-5 pick for Jimmy Butler ?
« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2016, 02:52:16 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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No thanks.

IT has become the heart and soul of this team this season - along with Jae Crowder.

Smart made strides in this department too - especially with his play in the post-season.

As much as I like Butler, I'm hoping we can acquire him without making a chemistry-affecting move.

Such a wish is nearly impossible, I realize. But Danny has pulled off the impossible before.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 03:02:09 AM by GreenFaith1819 »

Re: Would you trade IT + 3-5 pick for Jimmy Butler ?
« Reply #50 on: May 01, 2016, 04:38:33 AM »

Offline BornReady

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delete

Re: Would you trade IT + 3-5 pick for Jimmy Butler ?
« Reply #51 on: May 01, 2016, 05:20:58 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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The original trade is insane. I thought it was someone who might have bumped their heads but it's just trollboy16f.

PER 36 (this is one of those times per 36 works well):

IT: 24.8 ppg, 3.3 rebounds, 6.9 assists, .562 true shooting percentage, $7m/yr contract
Butler: 20.4 ppg, 5.2 rebounds, 4.7 assists, .563 true shooting percentage, $19m/yr contract

They're basically the same age. So offensively, Butler gains you absolutely nothing. Nada. If anything, IT is the superior offensive player. Defensively, there's little doubt Butler >>>> IT. So if everything is equal, I'd rather have Butler.

But everything isn't equal. So is Butler's superiority on the defensive end worth $12m a year? Maybe, but probably not. Is it worth $12m a year AND a top 5 pick? Not just no, but 7734 (calculator humor) no.

Good post...

Not really

And Bulls are not likely taking number 3-5 as a centerpiece asset for Butler. It would need to include crowder or IT etc.

Butler overall is a better player. The other poster is confused , talking out loud. End conclusion Butler is better overall.

Plus is receiving a fair contract.

For a change I do agree with Triboy here.

It's hard to imagine Chicago trading Butler here for JUST a 3-5 range pick.  He's worth far, far more then that.

On the other hand, I do also feel that the proposed trade (Thomas + 3-5 pick + more) is a bit excessive and doesn't do much for us.

Butler is an excellent scorer - one of the best in the NBA.  But he's not as good a scorer as Thomas.  Thomas is kinda more suited to being your #1 offensive option because of his style of play - he's just REALLY good at creating his own offence.  Butler isn't too far off Thomas offensively, but he's not quite on the same level.

To me the idea of getting Butler was so appealing because I wanted to pair him with Thomas - he would give us that second go-to scorer that we desperately need, without sacrificing anything defensively.  Personally, I'd put Butler at the SF spot (rather than SG) and go with a Thomas / Bradley / Butler perimeter lineup.  That lineup would be absolutely devastating offensively and outstanding defensively (even with Thomas in there). 

Unfortunately that makes Crowder the odd man out, and so there seems to be little point in us holding on to him.  I don't think it's fair to bring him off the bench behind Butler - he is too talented for that, and deserves a bigger role.

So I think the best thing to do would be to send the Brooklyn pick (3-5) and Crowder, then add filler as needed to get the deal done.  I would do that trade without hesitation because replacing Crowder with Butler is a major upgrade offensively, without sacrificing anything on defence.  It's a move that makes us MUCH better.

Trading IT for Butler..I don't know.  It's giving up one scorer to gain another...and then replacing Thomas with Smart at PG really hurts us (we've seen this from our previous attempts at it). 

I think we really need to keep Thomas.

Re: Would you trade IT + 3-5 pick for Jimmy Butler ?
« Reply #52 on: May 01, 2016, 05:43:32 AM »

Offline LilRip

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By trading IT, the trade generally becomes one step forward-one step back. If you trade for Butler, you need to keep IT. I would propose something like this trade: #3-5pick + Amir (salary) + Crowder (mini-Butler, more cost-controlled contract, locked up multiple years) + some 2nd rounders for Jimmy Butler + 2nd rounder.

Will Butler+IT be enough to lure Durant? Maybe, considering we still have terrific role players in Smart, Bradley, etc.. The team will still need a big though. Will we have enough to sign a guy like Horford/Dwight? Or are there any other cost-controlled big men ala Biyombo available?


- LilRip

Re: Would you trade IT + 3-5 pick for Jimmy Butler ?
« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2016, 05:45:17 AM »

Offline chambers

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The original trade is insane. I thought it was someone who might have bumped their heads but it's just trollboy16f.

PER 36 (this is one of those times per 36 works well):

IT: 24.8 ppg, 3.3 rebounds, 6.9 assists, .562 true shooting percentage, $7m/yr contract
Butler: 20.4 ppg, 5.2 rebounds, 4.7 assists, .563 true shooting percentage, $19m/yr contract

They're basically the same age. So offensively, Butler gains you absolutely nothing. Nada. If anything, IT is the superior offensive player. Defensively, there's little doubt Butler >>>> IT. So if everything is equal, I'd rather have Butler.

But everything isn't equal. So is Butler's superiority on the defensive end worth $12m a year? Maybe, but probably not. Is it worth $12m a year AND a top 5 pick? Not just no, but 7734 (calculator humor) no.

Good post...

Not really

And Bulls are not likely taking number 3-5 as a centerpiece asset for Butler. It would need to include crowder or IT etc.

Butler overall is a better player. The other poster is confused , talking out loud. End conclusion Butler is better overall.

Plus is receiving a fair contract.

For a change I do agree with Triboy here.

It's hard to imagine Chicago trading Butler here for JUST a 3-5 range pick.  He's worth far, far more then that.

On the other hand, I do also feel that the proposed trade (Thomas + 3-5 pick + more) is a bit excessive and doesn't do much for us.

Butler is an excellent scorer - one of the best in the NBA.  But he's not as good a scorer as Thomas.  Thomas is kinda more suited to being your #1 offensive option because of his style of play - he's just REALLY good at creating his own offence.  Butler isn't too far off Thomas offensively, but he's not quite on the same level.

To me the idea of getting Butler was so appealing because I wanted to pair him with Thomas - he would give us that second go-to scorer that we desperately need, without sacrificing anything defensively.  Personally, I'd put Butler at the SF spot (rather than SG) and go with a Thomas / Bradley / Butler perimeter lineup.  That lineup would be absolutely devastating offensively and outstanding defensively (even with Thomas in there). 

Unfortunately that makes Crowder the odd man out, and so there seems to be little point in us holding on to him.  I don't think it's fair to bring him off the bench behind Butler - he is too talented for that, and deserves a bigger role.

So I think the best thing to do would be to send the Brooklyn pick (3-5) and Crowder, then add filler as needed to get the deal done.  I would do that trade without hesitation because replacing Crowder with Butler is a major upgrade offensively, without sacrificing anything on defence.  It's a move that makes us MUCH better.

Trading IT for Butler..I don't know.  It's giving up one scorer to gain another...and then replacing Thomas with Smart at PG really hurts us (we've seen this from our previous attempts at it). 

I think we really need to keep Thomas.

I love Butler, but I'd prefer to keep Crowder at SF and Butler at SG simply because of the defensive versatility they'd bring.
 They can both guard pretty much anyone on the court other than traditional centers and would make us extremely hard to score on.

I just think that overall for our championship hopes, Crowder is the better answer with Butler here.
If we could somehow keep Smart AND Crowder in a Butler trade (probably only possible with the #2 or perhaps #3 pick), Smart could play Avery's role defensively off the bench and hopefully improve his 3 point shooting.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Would you trade IT + 3-5 pick for Jimmy Butler ?
« Reply #54 on: May 01, 2016, 06:02:04 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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The original trade is insane. I thought it was someone who might have bumped their heads but it's just trollboy16f.

PER 36 (this is one of those times per 36 works well):

IT: 24.8 ppg, 3.3 rebounds, 6.9 assists, .562 true shooting percentage, $7m/yr contract
Butler: 20.4 ppg, 5.2 rebounds, 4.7 assists, .563 true shooting percentage, $19m/yr contract

They're basically the same age. So offensively, Butler gains you absolutely nothing. Nada. If anything, IT is the superior offensive player. Defensively, there's little doubt Butler >>>> IT. So if everything is equal, I'd rather have Butler.

But everything isn't equal. So is Butler's superiority on the defensive end worth $12m a year? Maybe, but probably not. Is it worth $12m a year AND a top 5 pick? Not just no, but 7734 (calculator humor) no.

Good post...

Not really

And Bulls are not likely taking number 3-5 as a centerpiece asset for Butler. It would need to include crowder or IT etc.

Butler overall is a better player. The other poster is confused , talking out loud. End conclusion Butler is better overall.

Plus is receiving a fair contract.

For a change I do agree with Triboy here.

It's hard to imagine Chicago trading Butler here for JUST a 3-5 range pick.  He's worth far, far more then that.

On the other hand, I do also feel that the proposed trade (Thomas + 3-5 pick + more) is a bit excessive and doesn't do much for us.

Butler is an excellent scorer - one of the best in the NBA.  But he's not as good a scorer as Thomas.  Thomas is kinda more suited to being your #1 offensive option because of his style of play - he's just REALLY good at creating his own offence.  Butler isn't too far off Thomas offensively, but he's not quite on the same level.

To me the idea of getting Butler was so appealing because I wanted to pair him with Thomas - he would give us that second go-to scorer that we desperately need, without sacrificing anything defensively.  Personally, I'd put Butler at the SF spot (rather than SG) and go with a Thomas / Bradley / Butler perimeter lineup.  That lineup would be absolutely devastating offensively and outstanding defensively (even with Thomas in there). 

Unfortunately that makes Crowder the odd man out, and so there seems to be little point in us holding on to him.  I don't think it's fair to bring him off the bench behind Butler - he is too talented for that, and deserves a bigger role.

So I think the best thing to do would be to send the Brooklyn pick (3-5) and Crowder, then add filler as needed to get the deal done.  I would do that trade without hesitation because replacing Crowder with Butler is a major upgrade offensively, without sacrificing anything on defence.  It's a move that makes us MUCH better.

Trading IT for Butler..I don't know.  It's giving up one scorer to gain another...and then replacing Thomas with Smart at PG really hurts us (we've seen this from our previous attempts at it). 

I think we really need to keep Thomas.

I love Butler, but I'd prefer to keep Crowder at SF and Butler at SG simply because of the defensive versatility they'd bring.
 They can both guard pretty much anyone on the court other than traditional centers and would make us extremely hard to score on.

I just think that overall for our championship hopes, Crowder is the better answer with Butler here.
If we could somehow keep Smart AND Crowder in a Butler trade (probably only possible with the #2 or perhaps #3 pick), Smart could play Avery's role defensively off the bench and hopefully improve his 3 point shooting.

I personally just don't see the point.

From what I'm seeing, Crowder offers pretty much nothing that we wouldn't get from Butler.  They are the same height, both strong/physical guys, but similar levels of athleticism.  Butler offers similar defensive versatility.

To me having Crowder and Butler at the same time is just completely redundant.

I would much rather have Bradley and Butler on the court, because they have different skill sets that I feel compliment each other better.

For example, Bradley is a much better outside shooter then Crowder or Butler, and he's much quicker and more athletic.  Bradley has the ability to defend really quick PG's who guys like Butler and Crowder might have trouble with, and he has the ability to pressure the ball in ways that Crowder and Butler can't do nearly as effectively.

I feel this is a big reason why Bradley and Crowder worked so well.  Crowder handled the bigger, stronger opponent on defence, while Bradley handled the smaller and more agile guy. 

For example if you look at the Warriors - Bradley is much better equipped to slow down Steph Curry then either Butler or Crowder is.  However Bradley would struggle with a guy as big as Klay Thompson, which is where Butler / Crowder would come in to play.

It's all about finding pieces that complement each other, so that the overall team can amount to more than the sum of it's parts.

Crowder improved a lot this year offensively, but he's still nowhere near dependable enough a shooter to be trusted as a legit #2 or #3 option.  Simply but, Crowder just isn't the type of guy who is able to create his own shot - he depends a lot on catch/shoot opportunities, and beyond that he tends to just put his head down and drive recklessly into traffic. 

Contrary to what many people here think, Bradley is actually quite solid at creating his own shot.  He's not good enough at it to the point where he can be your go-to scorer, but he is very good at cutting, at using screens, and at using his dribble to create space.  When he does so, he's got a very quick release and is actually very good at making contested jumpers - and he is lightning quick (and a very good finisher nowdays) in transition.

With Thomas, Bradley and Butler you have three perimeter players on the court who are all capable of creating offence.  That's critical when it comes to close games and playoff games, because it makes it harder for teams to lock you down at the end of games, in clutch moments.  If they throw their attention at Thomas and Butler, then you can get the ball to Bradley and he can get off a shot. 

I kinda feel that Bradley is absolutely perfectly suited to that type of role, and would be a brilliant fit alongside Thomas and Butler.  Like a match made in heaven.


Re: Would you trade IT + 3-5 pick for Jimmy Butler ?
« Reply #55 on: May 01, 2016, 06:35:32 AM »

Offline Eddie20

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The original trade is insane. I thought it was someone who might have bumped their heads but it's just trollboy16f.

PER 36 (this is one of those times per 36 works well):

IT: 24.8 ppg, 3.3 rebounds, 6.9 assists, .562 true shooting percentage, $7m/yr contract
Butler: 20.4 ppg, 5.2 rebounds, 4.7 assists, .563 true shooting percentage, $19m/yr contract

They're basically the same age. So offensively, Butler gains you absolutely nothing. Nada. If anything, IT is the superior offensive player. Defensively, there's little doubt Butler >>>> IT. So if everything is equal, I'd rather have Butler.

But everything isn't equal. So is Butler's superiority on the defensive end worth $12m a year? Maybe, but probably not. Is it worth $12m a year AND a top 5 pick? Not just no, but 7734 (calculator humor) no.

Good post...

Not really

And Bulls are not likely taking number 3-5 as a centerpiece asset for Butler. It would need to include crowder or IT etc.

Butler overall is a better player. The other poster is confused , talking out loud. End conclusion Butler is better overall.

Plus is receiving a fair contract.

For a change I do agree with Triboy here.

It's hard to imagine Chicago trading Butler here for JUST a 3-5 range pick.  He's worth far, far more then that.

On the other hand, I do also feel that the proposed trade (Thomas + 3-5 pick + more) is a bit excessive and doesn't do much for us.

Butler is an excellent scorer - one of the best in the NBA.  But he's not as good a scorer as Thomas.  Thomas is kinda more suited to being your #1 offensive option because of his style of play - he's just REALLY good at creating his own offence.  Butler isn't too far off Thomas offensively, but he's not quite on the same level.

To me the idea of getting Butler was so appealing because I wanted to pair him with Thomas - he would give us that second go-to scorer that we desperately need, without sacrificing anything defensively.  Personally, I'd put Butler at the SF spot (rather than SG) and go with a Thomas / Bradley / Butler perimeter lineup.  That lineup would be absolutely devastating offensively and outstanding defensively (even with Thomas in there). 

Unfortunately that makes Crowder the odd man out, and so there seems to be little point in us holding on to him.  I don't think it's fair to bring him off the bench behind Butler - he is too talented for that, and deserves a bigger role.

So I think the best thing to do would be to send the Brooklyn pick (3-5) and Crowder, then add filler as needed to get the deal done.  I would do that trade without hesitation because replacing Crowder with Butler is a major upgrade offensively, without sacrificing anything on defence.  It's a move that makes us MUCH better.

Trading IT for Butler..I don't know.  It's giving up one scorer to gain another...and then replacing Thomas with Smart at PG really hurts us (we've seen this from our previous attempts at it). 

I think we really need to keep Thomas.

I love Butler, but I'd prefer to keep Crowder at SF and Butler at SG simply because of the defensive versatility they'd bring.
 They can both guard pretty much anyone on the court other than traditional centers and would make us extremely hard to score on.

I just think that overall for our championship hopes, Crowder is the better answer with Butler here.
If we could somehow keep Smart AND Crowder in a Butler trade (probably only possible with the #2 or perhaps #3 pick), Smart could play Avery's role defensively off the bench and hopefully improve his 3 point shooting.

I personally just don't see the point.

From what I'm seeing, Crowder offers pretty much nothing that we wouldn't get from Butler.  They are the same height, both strong/physical guys, but similar levels of athleticism.  Butler offers similar defensive versatility.

To me having Crowder and Butler at the same time is just completely redundant.

I would much rather have Bradley and Butler on the court, because they have different skill sets that I feel compliment each other better.

For example, Bradley is a much better outside shooter then Crowder or Butler, and he's much quicker and more athletic.  Bradley has the ability to defend really quick PG's who guys like Butler and Crowder might have trouble with, and he has the ability to pressure the ball in ways that Crowder and Butler can't do nearly as effectively.

This is just flat out wrong. Butler is one of the most athletic players in the NBA and can jump out of the gym. He jumped 39 inches at the combine (Bradley 37.5 and Crowder 34). I'll give you Bradley having quicker feet than Butler, but not by the disparity you think and certainly Crowder (who I love) does not have the quickness Butler has.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAKpm0hGtGQ

Re: Would you trade IT + 3-5 pick for Jimmy Butler ?
« Reply #56 on: May 01, 2016, 07:37:45 AM »

Offline chambers

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The original trade is insane. I thought it was someone who might have bumped their heads but it's just trollboy16f.

PER 36 (this is one of those times per 36 works well):

IT: 24.8 ppg, 3.3 rebounds, 6.9 assists, .562 true shooting percentage, $7m/yr contract
Butler: 20.4 ppg, 5.2 rebounds, 4.7 assists, .563 true shooting percentage, $19m/yr contract

They're basically the same age. So offensively, Butler gains you absolutely nothing. Nada. If anything, IT is the superior offensive player. Defensively, there's little doubt Butler >>>> IT. So if everything is equal, I'd rather have Butler.

But everything isn't equal. So is Butler's superiority on the defensive end worth $12m a year? Maybe, but probably not. Is it worth $12m a year AND a top 5 pick? Not just no, but 7734 (calculator humor) no.

Good post...

Not really

And Bulls are not likely taking number 3-5 as a centerpiece asset for Butler. It would need to include crowder or IT etc.

Butler overall is a better player. The other poster is confused , talking out loud. End conclusion Butler is better overall.

Plus is receiving a fair contract.

For a change I do agree with Triboy here.

It's hard to imagine Chicago trading Butler here for JUST a 3-5 range pick.  He's worth far, far more then that.

On the other hand, I do also feel that the proposed trade (Thomas + 3-5 pick + more) is a bit excessive and doesn't do much for us.

Butler is an excellent scorer - one of the best in the NBA.  But he's not as good a scorer as Thomas.  Thomas is kinda more suited to being your #1 offensive option because of his style of play - he's just REALLY good at creating his own offence.  Butler isn't too far off Thomas offensively, but he's not quite on the same level.

To me the idea of getting Butler was so appealing because I wanted to pair him with Thomas - he would give us that second go-to scorer that we desperately need, without sacrificing anything defensively.  Personally, I'd put Butler at the SF spot (rather than SG) and go with a Thomas / Bradley / Butler perimeter lineup.  That lineup would be absolutely devastating offensively and outstanding defensively (even with Thomas in there). 

Unfortunately that makes Crowder the odd man out, and so there seems to be little point in us holding on to him.  I don't think it's fair to bring him off the bench behind Butler - he is too talented for that, and deserves a bigger role.

So I think the best thing to do would be to send the Brooklyn pick (3-5) and Crowder, then add filler as needed to get the deal done.  I would do that trade without hesitation because replacing Crowder with Butler is a major upgrade offensively, without sacrificing anything on defence.  It's a move that makes us MUCH better.

Trading IT for Butler..I don't know.  It's giving up one scorer to gain another...and then replacing Thomas with Smart at PG really hurts us (we've seen this from our previous attempts at it). 

I think we really need to keep Thomas.

I love Butler, but I'd prefer to keep Crowder at SF and Butler at SG simply because of the defensive versatility they'd bring.
 They can both guard pretty much anyone on the court other than traditional centers and would make us extremely hard to score on.

I just think that overall for our championship hopes, Crowder is the better answer with Butler here.
If we could somehow keep Smart AND Crowder in a Butler trade (probably only possible with the #2 or perhaps #3 pick), Smart could play Avery's role defensively off the bench and hopefully improve his 3 point shooting.

I personally just don't see the point.

From what I'm seeing, Crowder offers pretty much nothing that we wouldn't get from Butler.  They are the same height, both strong/physical guys, but similar levels of athleticism.  Butler offers similar defensive versatility.

To me having Crowder and Butler at the same time is just completely redundant.

I would much rather have Bradley and Butler on the court, because they have different skill sets that I feel compliment each other better.

For example, Bradley is a much better outside shooter then Crowder or Butler, and he's much quicker and more athletic.  Bradley has the ability to defend really quick PG's who guys like Butler and Crowder might have trouble with, and he has the ability to pressure the ball in ways that Crowder and Butler can't do nearly as effectively.

I feel this is a big reason why Bradley and Crowder worked so well.  Crowder handled the bigger, stronger opponent on defence, while Bradley handled the smaller and more agile guy. 

For example if you look at the Warriors - Bradley is much better equipped to slow down Steph Curry then either Butler or Crowder is.  However Bradley would struggle with a guy as big as Klay Thompson, which is where Butler / Crowder would come in to play.

It's all about finding pieces that complement each other, so that the overall team can amount to more than the sum of it's parts.

Crowder improved a lot this year offensively, but he's still nowhere near dependable enough a shooter to be trusted as a legit #2 or #3 option.  Simply but, Crowder just isn't the type of guy who is able to create his own shot - he depends a lot on catch/shoot opportunities, and beyond that he tends to just put his head down and drive recklessly into traffic. 

Contrary to what many people here think, Bradley is actually quite solid at creating his own shot.  He's not good enough at it to the point where he can be your go-to scorer, but he is very good at cutting, at using screens, and at using his dribble to create space.  When he does so, he's got a very quick release and is actually very good at making contested jumpers - and he is lightning quick (and a very good finisher nowdays) in transition.

With Thomas, Bradley and Butler you have three perimeter players on the court who are all capable of creating offence.  That's critical when it comes to close games and playoff games, because it makes it harder for teams to lock you down at the end of games, in clutch moments.  If they throw their attention at Thomas and Butler, then you can get the ball to Bradley and he can get off a shot. 

I kinda feel that Bradley is absolutely perfectly suited to that type of role, and would be a brilliant fit alongside Thomas and Butler.  Like a match made in heaven.

Completely understand your reasoning for Bradley over Crowder. I just feel that Crowder is the better player and that Smart can replace Bradley's defensive value vs guys like Curry.
Having Crowder and Butler would be an unstoppable force in protecting against switches on the perimeter.
Perhaps Ainge will appease us run with something like:
IT
Bradley (or Smart)
Butler
Crowder
Howard

We'd have to hope Butler and Jae can shoot 35%+ from three but it would be a defensive nightmare for any opponent.

I'm also looking at acquiring Butler with a long term vision for Durant. And I think Butler always plays SG on a team with Durant, and that Crowder can guard either the SF or PF to give Durant the softer opponent.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Would you trade IT + 3-5 pick for Jimmy Butler ?
« Reply #57 on: May 01, 2016, 09:07:08 AM »

Offline flybono

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If Ainge would trade Isaiah, I'd love to go after Mike Conley or Jeff Teague in FA.

Both would work well here. And alongside Jimmy Butler in this proposal.


Amen

Re: Would you trade IT + 3-5 pick for Jimmy Butler ?
« Reply #58 on: May 01, 2016, 09:32:45 AM »

Online trickybilly

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The ONLY scenario where Danny trades IT is if it brings Durant.
"Gimme the ball, gimme the ball". Freddy Quimby, 1994.

Re: Would you trade IT + 3-5 pick for Jimmy Butler ?
« Reply #59 on: May 01, 2016, 09:57:57 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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A common answer to this question has been "yes, if it bring Durant".  I don't understand where this is coming from.  Our chance of getting Durant is very small.  The chance of us trading for Butler is small.  The chance of both happening, from a pure mathematical stand point is even smaller than either one happening.

Now I get the premise, we trade for Butler and that somehow gets Durant excited to come to Boston to team up with Butler in the east were he can do better in the playoffs.  But are the Celtics with Butler better than OKC with Westbrook?  It is debatable but i don't think that is going to have any impact on what Durant decides to do.

Butler is a nice player.  He would be a talent upgrade for us as SG for sure.  I think he is a more valuable player than Thomas.  Not sure if the pick plus Thomas is worth it though.  I don't know about Butler's attitude problem.  I see the stories but who really knows.  You would have to be sure about that before doing this trade.