Author Topic: Danny's draft predicament with Butler and Durant  (Read 5767 times)

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Danny's draft predicament with Butler and Durant
« on: April 30, 2016, 12:11:43 AM »

Offline chambers

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The delicate predicament that Danny is in right now is that there aren't any other major guys that are available to lure Durant here. Butler is probably the best player the Celtics can acquire for the 2016 Brooklyn pick and to make the strongest possible case to Durant, he's going to want Butler or another top 10/15 NBA player-which Butler certainly is as a top 10 scorer and top 10 defender.

The catch 22 for Danny is that if the Brooklyn pick is #1 or #2, he's far more likely to get Butler without giving up Smart or too many other assets/young guys because Chicago will be very happy with Simmons or Ingram with McDermott and Portis. I also think Danny is going to do whatever he can to hold on to Crowder in any deal for Butler.

 He'll want Crowder at the SF in case we can't get Durant here and Crowder is never going to be make or break for the Bulls because they'll be rebuilding from the ground up with McBuckets/Portis/Brooklyn pick+other picks.

However they may want Marcus Smart- especially if the pick is #3 or #4 and we'll need them to be really sold on Bender or one of the other top 5 guys and probably have to give up a bunch more picks and young players. The Bulls are going to be far more interested in Marcus Smart than Crowder in any Jimmy Butler trade simply because of his age and ceiling.

This 2016 Brooklyn pick has an expiry date and Danny Ainge has to weigh up whether he'll gamble on one of Simmons or Ingram and even the #3 and #4 picks...or if he'll trade one of those guys for Jimmy Butler thus giving us a better shot at Durantula/ future free agents. I could see us taking Simmons and sticking with him, but It will be an awfully hard decision especially if we get the #2 pick.

Ultimately I think he chooses Butler over any picks outside the top 2 because with Butler, IT and Brad Stevens here, even missing out on Durant makes us more appealing to potential free agents for the next 3-4 years.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 12:19:48 AM by chambers »
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Danny's draft predicament with Butler and Durant
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2016, 12:43:11 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

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I'm not giving up 1 or 2 for Butler. Maybe for PG, Cousins, or Blake but not Butler. And on top of all this why not just deal AB for Ibaka the number 3 or lower + 58 for Favors + 42 . Then sign DeRozan. To get KD on board

IT, DeRozan, KD, Ibaka, Favors
Rozier, Smart, Crowder, JJ, KO
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 12:50:09 AM by Csfan1984 »

Re: Danny's draft predicament with Butler and Durant
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2016, 01:10:30 AM »

Offline jpotter33

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I'm still not sold on the fact that we can't trade for Cousins, which would just give us one more potential star to trade for to attract Durant. Plus, I'm worried about giving up significant assets for Butler when our frontcourt is much more in need of an upgrade and the position that Butler plays (the swing 2-3 position) is probably our strongest position at the moment.

Of course, if only Butler is available then I still think you go for him, just as long as you don't overpay too much, i.e. Crowder + Smart + Brooklyn pick + other picks. Even if we would get Durant AND Butler, I still don't think we're a legitimate contender until we upgrade our 5 spot.

Re: Danny's draft predicament with Butler and Durant
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2016, 02:10:04 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Sounds like a lot of Bulls players didn't get along with Butler, because of his ego.  I wonder if Durant wants to play with him.

Re: Danny's draft predicament with Butler and Durant
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2016, 03:35:31 AM »

Offline chambers

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I'm not giving up 1 or 2 for Butler. Maybe for PG, Cousins, or Blake but not Butler. And on top of all this why not just deal AB for Ibaka the number 3 or lower + 58 for Favors + 42 . Then sign DeRozan. To get KD on board

IT, DeRozan, KD, Ibaka, Favors
Rozier, Smart, Crowder, JJ, KO

Yep I value PG, Blake and even Cousins higher than Butler (and I hate Cousins), but without Butler we severely diminish our shot at Durant in all likelihood.

Right now though, the market for that pick is pretty slim. If it is #1 then the Kings would probably listen to our offers for DMC. Maybe Doc would listen to a #1 or #2 offer for Griffin but I doubt it considering Blake's in his prime and is turning into a top 5 player.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Danny's draft predicament with Butler and Durant
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2016, 03:40:13 AM »

Offline chambers

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Sounds like a lot of Bulls players didn't get along with Butler, because of his ego.  I wonder if Durant wants to play with him.

The Bulls insider reporter said that there are two 'factions' in the Bulls locker room.

Noah+the veterans

vs

Butler and the young guys.

Noah and Butler have almost been at blows because of Noah's yapping which Butler won't put up with.
I could imagine Noah being a real dick too, but don't know if the main instigator is Noah or Butler.

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20160416/sports/160418941
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Danny's draft predicament with Butler and Durant
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2016, 03:48:10 AM »

Offline chambers

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I'm still not sold on the fact that we can't trade for Cousins, which would just give us one more potential star to trade for to attract Durant. Plus, I'm worried about giving up significant assets for Butler when our frontcourt is much more in need of an upgrade and the position that Butler plays (the swing 2-3 position) is probably our strongest position at the moment.

Of course, if only Butler is available then I still think you go for him, just as long as you don't overpay too much, i.e. Crowder + Smart + Brooklyn pick + other picks. Even if we would get Durant AND Butler, I still don't think we're a legitimate contender until we upgrade our 5 spot.
Interesting article on RealGM about how Griffin and Paul just don't work together. Personally I think they're pretty much the only team that could beat GSW in a 7 game series in the West.

http://basketball.realgm.com/analysis/241720/Ordinary-Together-MVPs-Apart

 I'd much prefer Griffin over Cousins. I'm biased though because I hate Cousins. I even worry that getting Cousins here would turn Durant away from becoming a Celtic since their recent on court incident.
I would say Danny's #1 targets will be Cousins and Griffin with the BRK 16' pick, and then Butler with the remaining assets in our pool.

It would be pretty sweet if he could nab two of those guys by dumping everything we have in a colossal off-season. eg...

#1 or #2 pick for Griffin and then
2017 Nets pick swap+2018 Nets pick+ Rozier+Hunter+Smart for Butler
etc
leaves us with

IT
Butler
Crowder
Griffin
Random center

with AB, Olynyk off the bench



"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Danny's draft predicament with Butler and Durant
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2016, 04:53:06 AM »

Offline greece66

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I'm still not sold on the fact that we can't trade for Cousins, which would just give us one more potential star to trade for to attract Durant. Plus, I'm worried about giving up significant assets for Butler when our frontcourt is much more in need of an upgrade and the position that Butler plays (the swing 2-3 position) is probably our strongest position at the moment.

Of course, if only Butler is available then I still think you go for him, just as long as you don't overpay too much, i.e. Crowder + Smart + Brooklyn pick + other picks. Even if we would get Durant AND Butler, I still don't think we're a legitimate contender until we upgrade our 5 spot.
Interesting article on RealGM about how Griffin and Paul just don't work together. Personally I think they're pretty much the only team that could beat GSW in a 7 game series in the West.

http://basketball.realgm.com/analysis/241720/Ordinary-Together-MVPs-Apart

 I'd much prefer Griffin over Cousins. I'm biased though because I hate Cousins. I even worry that getting Cousins here would turn Durant away from becoming a Celtic since their recent on court incident.
I would say Danny's #1 targets will be Cousins and Griffin with the BRK 16' pick, and then Butler with the remaining assets in our pool.

It would be pretty sweet if he could nab two of those guys by dumping everything we have in a colossal off-season. eg...

#1 or #2 pick for Griffin and then
2017 Nets pick swap+2018 Nets pick+ Rozier+Hunter+Smart for Butler
etc
leaves us with

IT
Butler
Crowder
Griffin
Random center

with AB, Olynyk off the bench

TP for the article Chambers. Outside Boston, Philly, SAS and LAC are the teams I know best in the NBA.  I really agree with the following paragraph:

Quote
Jordan’s flaws are obvious: the horrendous free throw shooting, the nonexistent jumper, the fact that he has no one to guard when opponents go small. But as far as the Clips are concerned, the biggest problem with Jordan is that he doesn’t pair well with Blake Griffin and his aforementioned 20-foot range. It’s difficult, in the modern NBA, to have two big men who play heavy minutes together and can’t shoot threes. It’s even worse when one of them doesn’t shoot at all. The Clippers find ways to make this work because Jordan is quite good and Griffin is some unholy mashup of Charles Barkley and Shawn Kemp, but it’s another case of the team being less than the sum of its parts.

Which brings me back to why on Earth did Doc decide to prioritize half court offence with this crew.It's obvious that Jordan and CP3 work best at fast breaks + having Jordan and Griffin play together messes up your spacing at half court. Sometimes I wonder if professional coaches can be arrogant enough to be blind to what is obvious to the eyes of an average sports fan...

(a digression from the main topic, apologies)

Back to the main topic, Butler is the kind of versatile player that Stevens loves; and our cramped SG position won't be much of a problem if we give up AB in the trade. But this question can only be answered with precision if we know what other trades/FA deals are on the table, and this info is available only to front offices right now...

Going back to our conversations last summer, these trades are fun to discuss but nearly impossible to predict in advance.

Re: Danny's draft predicament with Butler and Durant
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2016, 05:22:24 AM »

Offline chambers

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I'm still not sold on the fact that we can't trade for Cousins, which would just give us one more potential star to trade for to attract Durant. Plus, I'm worried about giving up significant assets for Butler when our frontcourt is much more in need of an upgrade and the position that Butler plays (the swing 2-3 position) is probably our strongest position at the moment.

Of course, if only Butler is available then I still think you go for him, just as long as you don't overpay too much, i.e. Crowder + Smart + Brooklyn pick + other picks. Even if we would get Durant AND Butler, I still don't think we're a legitimate contender until we upgrade our 5 spot.
Interesting article on RealGM about how Griffin and Paul just don't work together. Personally I think they're pretty much the only team that could beat GSW in a 7 game series in the West.

http://basketball.realgm.com/analysis/241720/Ordinary-Together-MVPs-Apart

 I'd much prefer Griffin over Cousins. I'm biased though because I hate Cousins. I even worry that getting Cousins here would turn Durant away from becoming a Celtic since their recent on court incident.
I would say Danny's #1 targets will be Cousins and Griffin with the BRK 16' pick, and then Butler with the remaining assets in our pool.

It would be pretty sweet if he could nab two of those guys by dumping everything we have in a colossal off-season. eg...

#1 or #2 pick for Griffin and then
2017 Nets pick swap+2018 Nets pick+ Rozier+Hunter+Smart for Butler
etc
leaves us with

IT
Butler
Crowder
Griffin
Random center

with AB, Olynyk off the bench

TP for the article Chambers. Outside Boston, Philly, SAS and LAC are the teams I know best in the NBA.  I really agree with the following paragraph:

Quote
Jordan’s flaws are obvious: the horrendous free throw shooting, the nonexistent jumper, the fact that he has no one to guard when opponents go small. But as far as the Clips are concerned, the biggest problem with Jordan is that he doesn’t pair well with Blake Griffin and his aforementioned 20-foot range. It’s difficult, in the modern NBA, to have two big men who play heavy minutes together and can’t shoot threes. It’s even worse when one of them doesn’t shoot at all. The Clippers find ways to make this work because Jordan is quite good and Griffin is some unholy mashup of Charles Barkley and Shawn Kemp, but it’s another case of the team being less than the sum of its parts.

Which brings me back to why on Earth did Doc decide to prioritize half court offence with this crew.It's obvious that Jordan and CP3 work best at fast breaks + having Jordan and Griffin play together messes up your spacing at half court. Sometimes I wonder if professional coaches can be arrogant enough to be blind to what is obvious to the eyes of an average sports fan...

(a digression from the main topic, apologies)

Back to the main topic, Butler is the kind of versatile player that Stevens loves; and our cramped SG position won't be much of a problem if we give up AB in the trade. But this question can only be answered with precision if we know what other trades/FA deals are on the table, and this info is available only to front offices right now...

Going back to our conversations last summer, these trades are fun to discuss but nearly impossible to predict in advance.

Yep the Griffin/Jordan front court is a weird one. I guess they just rely so much on the threat of the pick and roll with DJ and the pick and pop with Blake and by keeping Reddick and CP3 waiting for threes that it works when they're hitting the three.

Makes you wonder whether Griffin would be better as a center in Stevens offense with his mid range jumpshot and lack of three point shot. Like a mini Dwight Howard that can kick out to shooters but is fast enough to guard on defensive switches and gallop like a horse in transition.

This is going to be a fun and tiring summer of speculation Greece ;)
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Danny's draft predicament with Butler and Durant
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2016, 06:20:55 AM »

Offline greece66

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Yep the Griffin/Jordan front court is a weird one. I guess they just rely so much on the threat of the pick and roll with DJ and the pick and pop with Blake and by keeping Reddick and CP3 waiting for threes that it works when they're hitting the three.

Makes you wonder whether Griffin would be better as a center in Stevens offense with his mid range jumpshot and lack of three point shot. Like a mini Dwight Howard that can kick out to shooters but is fast enough to guard on defensive switches and gallop like a horse in transition.

This is going to be a fun and tiring summer of speculation Greece ;)

After watching Griffin struggling for years, I would like to at least experiment with him playing next to a stretch 4; in our case that would be Jerebko, Kelly or (why not?) Crowder. As long as Griffin can defend against the other team's 5 (and he can defend against many of them), I would be fine with some small ball. On the other hand, I'm afraid that pairing him with Amir would lead to problems similar to the ones he now has in LAC. During the regular season, the Amir-Griffin duo would be good enough to start against several teams, but you will need something better for the playoffs.

In any case,  if there is one thing I trust Stevens about is that he will bring out the best in every player; he worked miracles for ET, IT and Crowder; esp. in ET's he allowed him to play again as he did in college (unlike Indy and esp. Philly; the latter inexplicably trying to fit him in a SG role).

I would be shocked if (in the unlikely event we land Griffin) Stevens turned out to be as dull (and tbh lazy) as Doc was in LAC; Stevens loves versatile players of this kind and finds good systems for them (in Griffin's case he is arguably the best ballhandler among NBA's bigs); I would expect Griffin to return to superstar mode.

Re: Danny's draft predicament with Butler and Durant
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2016, 07:03:39 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Its a better to have this predicament than the situation we have had the last few year.s

Re: Danny's draft predicament with Butler and Durant
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2016, 07:46:49 AM »

Offline CFAN38

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I look at it like this

#1 Pick: Draft Simmons, end of story the Cs are set on a path based on how good simmons can be. Mind you the Cs also own the right to swap picks with the Nets next year in a loaded draft so more high end young talent is likely on its way. Add Simmons as the starting PF and retain every one else except for Turner and Sully. Looking to add a 10-15 mpg 3-D wing to the roster and role into next season.

#2 Pick: This is where I see the predicament, if the Bulls are willing to deal Butler straight for the #2 DA really has to know if Durant can be brought in or be confident that he can reshape the front court to allow the Cs to compete with the Cavs. He and BS and need to have a clear vision of how the G/F rotation is going to look as IT, Butler, Crowder, AB and Smart are all going to be expecting at least 30mpg next season. This may mean a trade package built around Smart or AB and a bunch of picks to bring in a starting PF or C. These issues will need to be carefully mapped out.

#3-#6 Pick: Simple you trade. I am really high on Bender but plan A with a non top 2 pick has to be to make a trade presumably for Butler and including Smart or AB in the package. I have posted numerous times while I really like Smart I think he is the guy likely to be shipped out in a Butler deal as long as AB can agree to 6th man role. After the trade DA will have momentum to try to go after big name FAs including Durant but if he falls short he can settle for lesser moves and this team still will have a decently balanced roster and higher hopes then this past season. 
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Re: Danny's draft predicament with Butler and Durant
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2016, 09:38:43 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
#3-#6 Pick: Simple you trade. I am really high on Bender but plan A with a non top 2 pick has to be to make a trade presumably for Butler and including Smart or AB in the package. I have posted numerous times while I really like Smart I think he is the guy likely to be shipped out in a Butler deal as long as AB can agree to 6th man role. After the trade DA will have momentum to try to go after big name FAs including Durant but if he falls short he can settle for lesser moves and this team still will have a decently balanced roster and higher hopes then this past season

Are you saying you are high and you like Bender?  Because given his production, that is the only way Ainge would take him, if he was out of his mind high!

Re: Danny's draft predicament with Butler and Durant
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2016, 10:15:01 AM »

Offline CFAN38

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Quote
#3-#6 Pick: Simple you trade. I am really high on Bender but plan A with a non top 2 pick has to be to make a trade presumably for Butler and including Smart or AB in the package. I have posted numerous times while I really like Smart I think he is the guy likely to be shipped out in a Butler deal as long as AB can agree to 6th man role. After the trade DA will have momentum to try to go after big name FAs including Durant but if he falls short he can settle for lesser moves and this team still will have a decently balanced roster and higher hopes then this past season

Are you saying you are high and you like Bender?  Because given his production, that is the only way Ainge would take him, if he was out of his mind high!

I do not want to turn this thread into another defence of Bender post but do you know what Pau Gasol's stat line was when he was 19 and playing for Barcelona in the ACB?

13mpg 3.9pts 2.3rb 0.4ast 0.4blk

The following year at age 20 he was given a larger role and averaged the following

25mpg 12.4pts 5.8rb 0.9ast 1.3blk

I am not saying this is the path Bender will follow however many scouts he watch these players for a living seem confident that Bender is a special player. His first draftexrpress article mention is from 2013 when he was 15. Based on what the scouts say, his FIBA stats, and watching a few of his games online I would be very happy if he was a Celtic.
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Re: Danny's draft predicament with Butler and Durant
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2016, 10:29:29 AM »

Offline Hemingway

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The real question, is who does KD want to play with. Lotf of guys named here. Other names to consider(though not popular on here), Howard, Rondo and Melo.