List your Top 10 Defenders in the league and explain why you chose them.

[LarBrd33]

I've been thinking about the perception of good defender vs bad defender.   I'm looking for some perspectives here. 

Who do you see as the top 10 defenders in the league?  Explain what criteria you use for selecting them.  Are there certain advanced stats you look at?  The eye test?  Impact on team-defense?  Which metrics specifically do you factor in?   Do you put weight in specific stats like defensive rating?

Also, does anyone know what criteria is used for selecting the All-Defense team?

Also, if you want to get real deep into this.  Of all the starters throughout the league, can you list the 10 worst defenders? 

[Who]

Also, if you want to get real deep into this.  Of all the starters throughout the league, can you list the 10 worst defenders?

A lot of rookies and older players. I'll keep going til I get 2 non-rooks / old guys at each spot.

In order - first is worst

PG - Calderon (old), Clarkson (2nd year), Mudiay (rookie), D-Rose, Isaiah
SG - [edit: Harden] L.Williams, E.Gordon, M.Ellis, CJ McCollum
SF - Kobe (old), Jabari Parker (2nd year), JJ (old), T-Evans
PF - Dirk (old), K-Love, Scola (old), Dieng
 C - J.Okafor (rookie), Big Al, Monroe, Sully

[MJohnnyboy]

Also, if you want to get real deep into this.  Of all the starters throughout the league, can you list the 10 worst defenders?

A lot of rookies and older players. I'll keep going til I get 2 non-rooks / old guys at each spot.

In order - first is worst

PG - Calderon (old), Clarkson (2nd year), Mudiay (rookie), D-Rose, Isaiah
SG - L.Williams, E.Gordon, M.Ellis, CJ McCollum
SF - Kobe (old), Jabari Parker (2nd year), JJ (old), T-Evans
PF - Dirk (old), K-Love, Scola (old), Dieng
 C - J.Okafor (rookie), Big Al, Monroe, Sully

Dude. Where's Harden?

[Who]

Also, if you want to get real deep into this.  Of all the starters throughout the league, can you list the 10 worst defenders?

A lot of rookies and older players. I'll keep going til I get 2 non-rooks / old guys at each spot.

In order - first is worst

PG - Calderon (old), Clarkson (2nd year), Mudiay (rookie), D-Rose, Isaiah
SG - L.Williams, E.Gordon, M.Ellis, CJ McCollum
SF - Kobe (old), Jabari Parker (2nd year), JJ (old), T-Evans
PF - Dirk (old), K-Love, Scola (old), Dieng
 C - J.Okafor (rookie), Big Al, Monroe, Sully

Dude. Where's Harden?

Forgot him. I just came back into the thread to add him in.

I do think Harden is closer to average defensively when he tries but that is so rare nowadays he is to be put in this group.

[Who]

Who do you see as the top 10 defenders in the league? 

Guards - John Wall, Marcus Smart, Avery Bradley, George Hill, Eric Bledsoe
SF - Kawhi Leonard, MKG (injured), Paul George, LeBron
PF - Draymond Green, Ibaka
 C - Rudy Gobert, DeAndre Jordan

[MJohnnyboy]

In no specific order, the best defenders in the league IMO are Kawhi Leonard, Draymond Green, Tony Allen, Avery Bradley, Paul Millsap, Jae Crowder, Chris Paul, Patrick Beverley, Paul George, Lebron James, Andre Iguodala, Marcus Smart, Justice Winslow, Jimmy Butler, Klay Thompson, Serge Ibaka, DeAndre Jordan, Anthony Davis, Iman Shumpert, Andrew Bogut, Rudy Gobert, Luol Deng, and Nerlens Noel. I'm sure there are more, but the point is it's hard to rank who the best 10 in the league are.

Oh, and James Harden would be last.

[Who]

Also, does anyone know what criteria is used for selecting the All-Defense team?

Coaches vote

I'm wrong. Used to be the coaches. Now it's the media.

Explain what criteria you use for selecting them.  Are there certain advanced stats you look at?  The eye test?  Impact on team-defense?  Which metrics specifically do you factor in?   Do you put weight in specific stats like defensive rating?

Eye test.

I like defensive stats but I don't put much weight into any of them. They all have their flaws.

I like on/off numbers. They are not perfect. They can change a lot based on what lineups you are in and who is your replacement. Still, there is often value in that one. I used to like counterpart stats on 82games.com but that site has closed. I don't know if you can get the numbers elsewhere. Some of those synergy stats were good. NBA.com has many of them now. I put no weight in defensive rating. Too much onus on teammates and defensive rebounding.

Different positions I like different things. I like mobile centers who can block shots. Team defense is much more important for me than man defense at center position. About 75-25 split.  I like PFs who can guard a variety of different types of forwards and can defend both on interior and perimeter. Again, team defense more important than man defense but not as wide a split as with the centers. Wing positions I generally like stoppers who are good on team D. Or a top team defender and solid man defender. I like guards who can deny dribble penetration, who recover quickly, who can close out their own man well or bigger wings and can switch onto bigger players. You can have something special when your guard can be a defensive coordinator on team defense like Smart is. Giving instructions with others in how and when to double team. How to position themselves.

[Rondo9]

Who do you see as the top 10 defenders in the league? 

Guards - John Wall, Marcus Smart, Avery Bradley, George Hill, Eric Bledsoe
SF - Kawhi Leonard, MKG (injured), Paul George, LeBron
PF - Draymond Green, Ibaka
 C - Rudy Gobert, DeAndre Jordan

No Jimmy Butler?

[Who]

Who do you see as the top 10 defenders in the league? 

Guards - John Wall, Marcus Smart, Avery Bradley, George Hill, Eric Bledsoe
SF - Kawhi Leonard, MKG (injured), Paul George, LeBron
PF - Draymond Green, Ibaka
 C - Rudy Gobert, DeAndre Jordan

No Jimmy Butler?

Next level down for me.

[Rondo9]

Who do you see as the top 10 defenders in the league? 

Guards - John Wall, Marcus Smart, Avery Bradley, George Hill, Eric Bledsoe
SF - Kawhi Leonard, MKG (injured), Paul George, LeBron
PF - Draymond Green, Ibaka
 C - Rudy Gobert, DeAndre Jordan

No Jimmy Butler?

Next level down for me.

May I ask why?

[Who]

Who do you see as the top 10 defenders in the league? 

Guards - John Wall, Marcus Smart, Avery Bradley, George Hill, Eric Bledsoe
SF - Kawhi Leonard, MKG (injured), Paul George, LeBron
PF - Draymond Green, Ibaka
 C - Rudy Gobert, DeAndre Jordan

No Jimmy Butler?

Next level down for me.

May I ask why?

There are some stellar defenders at SF in the league at the moment who are just a bit bigger, a bit longer, a bit quicker and do everything that bit better than Jimmy Butler does. Jimmy is very good but those guys are more physically & athletically gifted and that gives them an edge defensively over Jimmy.

[PhoSita]

Guards

Paul, Rubio, Smart

Wings

Kawhi, George, Iguodala

Bigs

Draymond, Jordan, Millsap, Whiteside


For bigs, I look at Defensive Rebound Percentage, Block Percentage, and Defensive Plus/Minus / DRPM.  Guys who dominate the boards, discourage shots inside, and have the mobility to contain pick and rolls and recover to the rim. 

Dray and Millsap are special in their ability as 4s to cover multiple positions, rebound, and force turnovers.

For wings and guards, it's a lot of eye test plus Steal Percentage and Defensive Plus Minus / DRPM.


I listed more bigs because bigs matter more defensively.  Wings matter a lot these days, as well, but there aren't a lot of really excellent all-around wing defenders.

Whiteside has some mixed reviews, but ultimately he's a top defensive rebounder and shot-blocker and that matters a lot.

I think for guards it's mostly a question of how good a job guys do at forcing turnovers and making ball-handlers work harder to get where they want to go.  I don't think guards can really consistently "stop" anyone. 

Guards that compete on the boards against bigger players also can help a team prevent offensive rebounds.


Worst defenders in starting lineups

Kobe  ---> worst and it's not even close
Rose
Gallo
Gordon
Russell / Clarkson
Deron
Kyrie
Booker
Wiggins
Okafor

[jpotter33]

Guards

Paul, Rubio, Smart

Wings

Kawhi, George, Iguodala

Bigs

Draymond, Jordan, Millsap, Whiteside


For bigs, I look at Defensive Rebound Percentage, Block Percentage, and Defensive Plus/Minus / DRPM.  Guys who dominate the boards, discourage shots inside, and have the mobility to contain pick and rolls and recover to the rim. 

Dray and Millsap are special in their ability as 4s to cover multiple positions, rebound, and force turnovers.

For wings and guards, it's a lot of eye test plus Steal Percentage and Defensive Plus Minus / DRPM.


I listed more bigs because bigs matter more defensively.  Wings matter a lot these days, as well, but there aren't a lot of really excellent all-around wing defenders.

Whiteside has some mixed reviews, but ultimately he's a top defensive rebounder and shot-blocker and that matters a lot.

I think for guards it's mostly a question of how good a job guys do at forcing turnovers and making ball-handlers work harder to get where they want to go.  I don't think guards can really consistently "stop" anyone. 

Guards that compete on the boards against bigger players also can help a team prevent offensive rebounds.


Worst defenders in starting lineups

Kobe  ---> worst and it's not even close
Rose
Gallo
Gordon
Russell / Clarkson
Deron
Kyrie
Booker
Wiggins
Okafor

That's a pretty solid list. I think AB is right there close, too, though I don't think he's quite as good of an overall team defender as those three, though he's by far the best individual guard coverage defender in the league (think Box and 1 type of defensive scheme - perfect fit for Bradley).

I also don't watch Rubio enough to make a decision on him. I really dislike Paul as a player, but he's definitely a top-notch guard defender in this league.

[PhoSita]

I also don't watch Rubio enough to make a decision on him. I really dislike Paul as a player, but he's definitely a top-notch guard defender in this league.

With Rubio I just look at the fact that he's great on the boards for a guard, and he's one of the league leaders in steals year after year.  On top of that, his advanced defensive stats are always complimentary despite the fact that the team around him is consistently terrible on that end.

Plus, I've heard people who watch the TWolves a lot more than me talk very favorably about his defense, so it makes me think it's not just an empty numbers thing.

[GreenFaith1819]

Marc Gasol should be on someone's lists......

I know he's been injured, but still..