Author Topic: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston  (Read 33094 times)

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Re: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston
« Reply #180 on: April 29, 2016, 04:15:26 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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You can't claim Butler is a superstar above criticism while at the same time arguing his price should be cheap. 


WHO IS CLAIMING THAT?

Mike

To get back to seriousness. I do think Butler can be a superstar.

...

Maybe they really do pick Hoiberg over Butler...

Yeah it totally makes sense to choose a coach over a budding superstar.

You neatly edited out the rest of my post where I said it was possible because their front office is so incredibly dysfunctional. If you don't get how the front office is dysfunctional and has made a ton of stupid moves in the last decade I don't really know where to start.

Also dude, editing my quotes around from a post to remove the meaning is pretty crappy. It is one thing to misunderstand what someone was says, but intentionally manipulating their posts to make them say something else is kind of crappy, even for you.
i didn't edit your post.  I highlighted the only relevant bits. That you think butler can be a superstar and you think the Bulls might pick a coach over him.   Dysfunctional or not, that's a comical premise.

Butler likely isn't going to be a superstar.  If you believe the Bulls will trade him for picks, it must mean the Bulls don't think he will be a superstar either.

He's still a nice player who could help.  I'd be fine with adding him at the right price.

Just like if anyone believes the Kings will trade DMC for picks, it must mean Sacramento doesn't think he is good enough to build a team around.
cousins hasn't been traded for picks. There's been no sign they are open to trading him for picks.  There are no rumors that he will be traded for picks.  And it's believed that cousins has considerable baggage.  As far as I know, butler doesn't have any major baggage and isn't demanding a trade - so it would be interesting if the Bulls dumped him.  But of course, butler is merely a borderline star - it's totally plausible he'd he traded.  They will ask for a lot despite this.   I'm not sure the price will make sense for us.

Butler is a bordeline star?

Are you honestly serious?  You talk about Jahlil Okafor like he's the second coming of god, and you refer to Jimmy Butler as a 'borderline star'??? 

Come on man - I generally respect the comments you make, but this is simply insane. 

Butler is a 21 / 5 / 5 guy and an elite defender.  He his game has no real glaring weaknesses, and his personality is a coach's dream.  He is arguably the best shooting guard in the entire NBA, and at 26 years of age he still has potential to get better.

I must admit, I am completely bewildered as to how you could refer to Butler as a 'borderline star'.
When did I talk about Okafor as the second coming of God?  Lol.   If you hate Okafor, take that up with Danny ainge - who per several reports came close to landing Okafor at the deadline for a package built around the pick.  Presumably butler had cost and will cost significantly more than that.  It sounds like we made inquires and the price was too high.

And yeah, butler is a borderline star.  He's maybe a notch above Thomas.  Take those two guys and pair them with a big man DPOY candidate like Noah in his prime and you'll probably make the second round.

Here's the thing with butler -  at minimum he's costing you all our picks, right?  Do you think he'd also cost crowder or Bradley ?

Someone made the comment earlier that butler can become a superstar.  Eh. I doubt it.  Someone made the comment that if you add butler without impacting our core, the team would threaten for the finals.  I don't buy it, but let's talk about it.

Let's pretend that the Bulls are so convinced in Butler's inability to be a franchise player that they actually decide to trade butler for our picks.  Add butler to our starting lineup. Whose minutes is he taking?  Who gets the short straw on minutes now?  Does he start next to crowder and Thomas with Bradley on the bench taking smarts minutes ?   Is he starting over Crowder?   Are we just replacing turners minutes ?   Someone is getting minutes eaten.  It will be an upgrade for sure, but if we are talking about just swapping our crowder or Bradley for butler is it really going to be a big enough upgrade to take this mediocre team to a championship?  Nah.   So if we are paying big time prices to bring in butler we better be certain of our free agency potential.  We'd need to have follow up moves to make it worthwhile.   

Hence why I say I'm not comfortable going all-in for butler unless is guarantees us Durant.  Id prefer the alternative of using the pick to take another big time prospect, keeping Bradley and crowder, and hoping a better option presents itself.
This is a fairly reasonable position, unlike your nonsense from earlier comparing Butler to Ricky Davis.  That was total hogwash.
That only upset people because butler is overrated and Davis was underrated.  It's the same reason people get all salty when Zach Lowe and Bill Simmons say Marcus smart might someday be as good as tony Allen... Or when someone in the media suggests Crowder is the modern James Posey. Nobody wants a ceiling placed on their future - especially by using underrated ghosts from their past.

And anyways, the fact that Davis has almost identical career stats to butler and had a similar statistical peak doesn't mean that butler can't continue to play at a high level.  We don't know how butler would play on a brad Stevens Celtic team.  We don't know how Ricky Davis would have played on a tom thib elite defensive team.  We don't know what butlers advanced stats would have looked like on a bottom feeder early 00s Celtics squad.  It doesn't matter.  Mostly, it's just funny how similar the stats are.  I think people reacted hostile to the comments because butler is a binkie.  I thought only Celtic players could be binkies around here but apparently butler is so desirable he gets the same defense mechanism.  So when someone points out butler has the same stats as Davis, it's the equivalent of your granny telling you you're starting to look so much like you dad as you get older - which really makes you angry, because you think your dad is a fat deadbeat and granny is losing her marbles.  But mostly it just upsets you because when you look in the mirror, you realize granny might be right.  In this example, I'm granny losing her marbles.
No people called you out for it, because Ricky Davis was not nearly as good as Jimmy Butler was.  It was a garbage comparison.  And the stats are skewed because Butler was slow to develop.  Davis averaged 20 ppg one time (the seasons on either side of that 20 were under 12 and under 14.5 ppg) and his eFG% in that one season was 43.5%.  Butler has gone back to back seasons at 20 or more ppg and his eFG% was respectively 50.2% and 48.5%.  Butler has shown a consistent trend of improvement.  Butler is a significantly better defender than Davis ever was.  This is borne out statistically, via honors, and via anyone that watches either of them play basketball. (For example, Davis career best PER was 16.1, Butler's last two seasons are each 21.3 - Davis ORTG 102, DRTG 109 - Butler ORTG 116, DRTG 104 - VORP Davis 6.5, Butler 13 - BPM Davis -0.8, Butler 3.1 - and on and on and on). 

It was and always will be a stupid comparison and it is why you lost people from your underlying argument that you don't want to overpay for Butler because he isn't a franchise player (I firmly agree with that part - Butler is not a franchise player).  That is a fair conclusion to make, but basing it off of a nonsense comparison is hogwash and is quite frankly stupid.
Bold comments.  You say he was slow to develop.  That might be partially true.  It also might have to do with surrounding talent and system.  Who was getting the attention of defenses on that team.  How that defense was structured.  Who was coaching that team, etc.  Like I said above, stick prime Ricky Davis with a 20/10 big man like Pau Gasol under a Tom Thib lead defense and maybe his stats (which were about even with Butler) aren't as empty. 

Also, when people quote advanced stats, do they actually understand what those advanced stats are showing?  If Butler's on a team loaded with talent that wins, isn't it obvious he'd have favorable advance stats that factor in win percentage?   If Butler's backup is weak while Ricky Davis' backup is 3-time first team all-defense Tony Allen, isn't it a given that his +/- stats would be impacted?

Too often people gloss over system and surrounding talent when considering players.   We saw BUtler's FG% jump from 39%/26% with the arrival of beast-mode Pau Gasol.  You can call it development and I'm sure in a lot of ways it is.  But having watched the game of basketball for a long time and seen how a guy like Paul Pierce could go from shooting 40%/29% in the down years like 2004 to 49%/38% alongside Kevin Garnett, I take these things into consideration when looking at a borderline star like Jimmy Butler - especially when he's coming off a season where his field goal percentages dropped across the board, his team failed to make the playoffs, his defense supposedly slipped, and the team is actually considering trading him away in a year where shaving cap space is as low-priority as it's ever been. 

Also, part of the reason people hate RIcky Davis is because he was a bit of a headcase.  Jimmy Butler speaks in the third person.  There's been several articles written about his colossal ego. Who knows how he'd be seen if he was playing on a lotto squad.  I mean... he IS playing on a lotto squad and the team IS supposedly interested in trading him.  So, there's that.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 04:41:04 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston
« Reply #181 on: April 29, 2016, 04:28:21 PM »

Offline Moranis

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You can't claim Butler is a superstar above criticism while at the same time arguing his price should be cheap. 


WHO IS CLAIMING THAT?

Mike

To get back to seriousness. I do think Butler can be a superstar.

...

Maybe they really do pick Hoiberg over Butler...

Yeah it totally makes sense to choose a coach over a budding superstar.

You neatly edited out the rest of my post where I said it was possible because their front office is so incredibly dysfunctional. If you don't get how the front office is dysfunctional and has made a ton of stupid moves in the last decade I don't really know where to start.

Also dude, editing my quotes around from a post to remove the meaning is pretty crappy. It is one thing to misunderstand what someone was says, but intentionally manipulating their posts to make them say something else is kind of crappy, even for you.
i didn't edit your post.  I highlighted the only relevant bits. That you think butler can be a superstar and you think the Bulls might pick a coach over him.   Dysfunctional or not, that's a comical premise.

Butler likely isn't going to be a superstar.  If you believe the Bulls will trade him for picks, it must mean the Bulls don't think he will be a superstar either.

He's still a nice player who could help.  I'd be fine with adding him at the right price.

Just like if anyone believes the Kings will trade DMC for picks, it must mean Sacramento doesn't think he is good enough to build a team around.
cousins hasn't been traded for picks. There's been no sign they are open to trading him for picks.  There are no rumors that he will be traded for picks.  And it's believed that cousins has considerable baggage.  As far as I know, butler doesn't have any major baggage and isn't demanding a trade - so it would be interesting if the Bulls dumped him.  But of course, butler is merely a borderline star - it's totally plausible he'd he traded.  They will ask for a lot despite this.   I'm not sure the price will make sense for us.

Butler is a bordeline star?

Are you honestly serious?  You talk about Jahlil Okafor like he's the second coming of god, and you refer to Jimmy Butler as a 'borderline star'??? 

Come on man - I generally respect the comments you make, but this is simply insane. 

Butler is a 21 / 5 / 5 guy and an elite defender.  He his game has no real glaring weaknesses, and his personality is a coach's dream.  He is arguably the best shooting guard in the entire NBA, and at 26 years of age he still has potential to get better.

I must admit, I am completely bewildered as to how you could refer to Butler as a 'borderline star'.
When did I talk about Okafor as the second coming of God?  Lol.   If you hate Okafor, take that up with Danny ainge - who per several reports came close to landing Okafor at the deadline for a package built around the pick.  Presumably butler had cost and will cost significantly more than that.  It sounds like we made inquires and the price was too high.

And yeah, butler is a borderline star.  He's maybe a notch above Thomas.  Take those two guys and pair them with a big man DPOY candidate like Noah in his prime and you'll probably make the second round.

Here's the thing with butler -  at minimum he's costing you all our picks, right?  Do you think he'd also cost crowder or Bradley ?

Someone made the comment earlier that butler can become a superstar.  Eh. I doubt it.  Someone made the comment that if you add butler without impacting our core, the team would threaten for the finals.  I don't buy it, but let's talk about it.

Let's pretend that the Bulls are so convinced in Butler's inability to be a franchise player that they actually decide to trade butler for our picks.  Add butler to our starting lineup. Whose minutes is he taking?  Who gets the short straw on minutes now?  Does he start next to crowder and Thomas with Bradley on the bench taking smarts minutes ?   Is he starting over Crowder?   Are we just replacing turners minutes ?   Someone is getting minutes eaten.  It will be an upgrade for sure, but if we are talking about just swapping our crowder or Bradley for butler is it really going to be a big enough upgrade to take this mediocre team to a championship?  Nah.   So if we are paying big time prices to bring in butler we better be certain of our free agency potential.  We'd need to have follow up moves to make it worthwhile.   

Hence why I say I'm not comfortable going all-in for butler unless is guarantees us Durant.  Id prefer the alternative of using the pick to take another big time prospect, keeping Bradley and crowder, and hoping a better option presents itself.
This is a fairly reasonable position, unlike your nonsense from earlier comparing Butler to Ricky Davis.  That was total hogwash.
That only upset people because butler is overrated and Davis was underrated.  It's the same reason people get all salty when Zach Lowe and Bill Simmons say Marcus smart might someday be as good as tony Allen... Or when someone in the media suggests Crowder is the modern James Posey. Nobody wants a ceiling placed on their future - especially by using underrated ghosts from their past.

And anyways, the fact that Davis has almost identical career stats to butler and had a similar statistical peak doesn't mean that butler can't continue to play at a high level.  We don't know how butler would play on a brad Stevens Celtic team.  We don't know how Ricky Davis would have played on a tom thib elite defensive team.  We don't know what butlers advanced stats would have looked like on a bottom feeder early 00s Celtics squad.  It doesn't matter.  Mostly, it's just funny how similar the stats are.  I think people reacted hostile to the comments because butler is a binkie.  I thought only Celtic players could be binkies around here but apparently butler is so desirable he gets the same defense mechanism.  So when someone points out butler has the same stats as Davis, it's the equivalent of your granny telling you you're starting to look so much like you dad as you get older - which really makes you angry, because you think your dad is a fat deadbeat and granny is losing her marbles.  But mostly it just upsets you because when you look in the mirror, you realize granny might be right.  In this example, I'm granny losing her marbles.
No people called you out for it, because Ricky Davis was not nearly as good as Jimmy Butler was.  It was a garbage comparison.  And the stats are skewed because Butler was slow to develop.  Davis averaged 20 ppg one time (the seasons on either side of that 20 were under 12 and under 14.5 ppg) and his eFG% in that one season was 43.5%.  Butler has gone back to back seasons at 20 or more ppg and his eFG% was respectively 50.2% and 48.5%.  Butler has shown a consistent trend of improvement.  Butler is a significantly better defender than Davis ever was.  This is borne out statistically, via honors, and via anyone that watches either of them play basketball. (For example, Davis career best PER was 16.1, Butler's last two seasons are each 21.3 - Davis ORTG 102, DRTG 109 - Butler ORTG 116, DRTG 104 - VORP Davis 6.5, Butler 13 - BPM Davis -0.8, Butler 3.1 - and on and on and on). 

It was and always will be a stupid comparison and it is why you lost people from your underlying argument that you don't want to overpay for Butler because he isn't a franchise player (I firmly agree with that part - Butler is not a franchise player).  That is a fair conclusion to make, but basing it off of a nonsense comparison is hogwash and is quite frankly stupid.
Bold comments.  You say he was slow to develop.  That might be partially true.  It also might have to do with surrounding talent and system.  Who was getting the attention of defenses on that team.  How that defense was structured.  Who was coaching that team, etc.  Like I said above, stick prime Ricky Davis with a 20/10 big man like Pau Gasol under a Tom Thib lead defense and maybe his stats (which were about even with Butler) aren't as empty. 

Also, when people quote advanced stats, do they actually understand what those advanced stats are showing?  If Butler's on a team loaded with talent that wins, isn't it obvious he'd have favorable advance stats that factor in win percentage?   If Butler's backup is weak while Ricky Davis' backup is 3-time first team all-defense Tony Allen, isn't it a given that his +/- stats would be impacted?
Jimmy Butler played in 42 games and 359 total minutes his rookie year.  He averaged 2.6 ppg.  His second year he averaged 8.6 ppg in about 26 minutes a game.  Third year up to 13.1 ppg and 39 minutes a game - so finally some real minutes.  Played same amount of minutes his 4th season but jumped the scoring up to 20 a game.   You used Butler's career stats to make your point, without accounting for him barely playing his 1st season and being nothing more than a role player his 2nd season.  Thus, you choose a nonsensical position by even using career stats for a guy who has played in 5 seasons vs. someone's entire career.  You did that because it made the numbers closer, which is a stupid proposition when you are discussing career peaks not career totals. 

Jimmy Butler is a significantly better player than Ricky Davis was.  It isn't close.  You need to stop arguing that point because you are just making yourself look dumber.  There are not statistically measures that support your position.  NONE. 
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Re: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston
« Reply #182 on: April 29, 2016, 04:35:46 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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You can't claim Butler is a superstar above criticism while at the same time arguing his price should be cheap. 


WHO IS CLAIMING THAT?

Mike

To get back to seriousness. I do think Butler can be a superstar.

...

Maybe they really do pick Hoiberg over Butler...

Yeah it totally makes sense to choose a coach over a budding superstar.

You neatly edited out the rest of my post where I said it was possible because their front office is so incredibly dysfunctional. If you don't get how the front office is dysfunctional and has made a ton of stupid moves in the last decade I don't really know where to start.

Also dude, editing my quotes around from a post to remove the meaning is pretty crappy. It is one thing to misunderstand what someone was says, but intentionally manipulating their posts to make them say something else is kind of crappy, even for you.
i didn't edit your post.  I highlighted the only relevant bits. That you think butler can be a superstar and you think the Bulls might pick a coach over him.   Dysfunctional or not, that's a comical premise.

Butler likely isn't going to be a superstar.  If you believe the Bulls will trade him for picks, it must mean the Bulls don't think he will be a superstar either.

He's still a nice player who could help.  I'd be fine with adding him at the right price.

Just like if anyone believes the Kings will trade DMC for picks, it must mean Sacramento doesn't think he is good enough to build a team around.
cousins hasn't been traded for picks. There's been no sign they are open to trading him for picks.  There are no rumors that he will be traded for picks.  And it's believed that cousins has considerable baggage.  As far as I know, butler doesn't have any major baggage and isn't demanding a trade - so it would be interesting if the Bulls dumped him.  But of course, butler is merely a borderline star - it's totally plausible he'd he traded.  They will ask for a lot despite this.   I'm not sure the price will make sense for us.

Butler is a bordeline star?

Are you honestly serious?  You talk about Jahlil Okafor like he's the second coming of god, and you refer to Jimmy Butler as a 'borderline star'??? 

Come on man - I generally respect the comments you make, but this is simply insane. 

Butler is a 21 / 5 / 5 guy and an elite defender.  He his game has no real glaring weaknesses, and his personality is a coach's dream.  He is arguably the best shooting guard in the entire NBA, and at 26 years of age he still has potential to get better.

I must admit, I am completely bewildered as to how you could refer to Butler as a 'borderline star'.
When did I talk about Okafor as the second coming of God?  Lol.   If you hate Okafor, take that up with Danny ainge - who per several reports came close to landing Okafor at the deadline for a package built around the pick.  Presumably butler had cost and will cost significantly more than that.  It sounds like we made inquires and the price was too high.

And yeah, butler is a borderline star.  He's maybe a notch above Thomas.  Take those two guys and pair them with a big man DPOY candidate like Noah in his prime and you'll probably make the second round.

Here's the thing with butler -  at minimum he's costing you all our picks, right?  Do you think he'd also cost crowder or Bradley ?

Someone made the comment earlier that butler can become a superstar.  Eh. I doubt it.  Someone made the comment that if you add butler without impacting our core, the team would threaten for the finals.  I don't buy it, but let's talk about it.

Let's pretend that the Bulls are so convinced in Butler's inability to be a franchise player that they actually decide to trade butler for our picks.  Add butler to our starting lineup. Whose minutes is he taking?  Who gets the short straw on minutes now?  Does he start next to crowder and Thomas with Bradley on the bench taking smarts minutes ?   Is he starting over Crowder?   Are we just replacing turners minutes ?   Someone is getting minutes eaten.  It will be an upgrade for sure, but if we are talking about just swapping our crowder or Bradley for butler is it really going to be a big enough upgrade to take this mediocre team to a championship?  Nah.   So if we are paying big time prices to bring in butler we better be certain of our free agency potential.  We'd need to have follow up moves to make it worthwhile.   

Hence why I say I'm not comfortable going all-in for butler unless is guarantees us Durant.  Id prefer the alternative of using the pick to take another big time prospect, keeping Bradley and crowder, and hoping a better option presents itself.
This is a fairly reasonable position, unlike your nonsense from earlier comparing Butler to Ricky Davis.  That was total hogwash.
That only upset people because butler is overrated and Davis was underrated.  It's the same reason people get all salty when Zach Lowe and Bill Simmons say Marcus smart might someday be as good as tony Allen... Or when someone in the media suggests Crowder is the modern James Posey. Nobody wants a ceiling placed on their future - especially by using underrated ghosts from their past.

And anyways, the fact that Davis has almost identical career stats to butler and had a similar statistical peak doesn't mean that butler can't continue to play at a high level.  We don't know how butler would play on a brad Stevens Celtic team.  We don't know how Ricky Davis would have played on a tom thib elite defensive team.  We don't know what butlers advanced stats would have looked like on a bottom feeder early 00s Celtics squad.  It doesn't matter.  Mostly, it's just funny how similar the stats are.  I think people reacted hostile to the comments because butler is a binkie.  I thought only Celtic players could be binkies around here but apparently butler is so desirable he gets the same defense mechanism.  So when someone points out butler has the same stats as Davis, it's the equivalent of your granny telling you you're starting to look so much like you dad as you get older - which really makes you angry, because you think your dad is a fat deadbeat and granny is losing her marbles.  But mostly it just upsets you because when you look in the mirror, you realize granny might be right.  In this example, I'm granny losing her marbles.
No people called you out for it, because Ricky Davis was not nearly as good as Jimmy Butler was.  It was a garbage comparison.  And the stats are skewed because Butler was slow to develop.  Davis averaged 20 ppg one time (the seasons on either side of that 20 were under 12 and under 14.5 ppg) and his eFG% in that one season was 43.5%.  Butler has gone back to back seasons at 20 or more ppg and his eFG% was respectively 50.2% and 48.5%.  Butler has shown a consistent trend of improvement.  Butler is a significantly better defender than Davis ever was.  This is borne out statistically, via honors, and via anyone that watches either of them play basketball. (For example, Davis career best PER was 16.1, Butler's last two seasons are each 21.3 - Davis ORTG 102, DRTG 109 - Butler ORTG 116, DRTG 104 - VORP Davis 6.5, Butler 13 - BPM Davis -0.8, Butler 3.1 - and on and on and on). 

It was and always will be a stupid comparison and it is why you lost people from your underlying argument that you don't want to overpay for Butler because he isn't a franchise player (I firmly agree with that part - Butler is not a franchise player).  That is a fair conclusion to make, but basing it off of a nonsense comparison is hogwash and is quite frankly stupid.
Bold comments.  You say he was slow to develop.  That might be partially true.  It also might have to do with surrounding talent and system.  Who was getting the attention of defenses on that team.  How that defense was structured.  Who was coaching that team, etc.  Like I said above, stick prime Ricky Davis with a 20/10 big man like Pau Gasol under a Tom Thib lead defense and maybe his stats (which were about even with Butler) aren't as empty. 

Also, when people quote advanced stats, do they actually understand what those advanced stats are showing?  If Butler's on a team loaded with talent that wins, isn't it obvious he'd have favorable advance stats that factor in win percentage?   If Butler's backup is weak while Ricky Davis' backup is 3-time first team all-defense Tony Allen, isn't it a given that his +/- stats would be impacted?
Jimmy Butler played in 42 games and 359 total minutes his rookie year.  He averaged 2.6 ppg.  His second year he averaged 8.6 ppg in about 26 minutes a game.  Third year up to 13.1 ppg and 39 minutes a game - so finally some real minutes.  Played same amount of minutes his 4th season but jumped the scoring up to 20 a game.   You used Butler's career stats to make your point, without accounting for him barely playing his 1st season and being nothing more than a role player his 2nd season.  Thus, you choose a nonsensical position by even using career stats for a guy who has played in 5 seasons vs. someone's entire career.  You did that because it made the numbers closer, which is a stupid proposition when you are discussing career peaks not career totals. 

Jimmy Butler is a significantly better player than Ricky Davis was.  It isn't close.  You need to stop arguing that point because you are just making yourself look dumber.  There are not statistically measures that support your position.  NONE.
I've fine with making myself look stupid.  I'm at peace with it.  I think we'd all be better off if we embraced our insignificance.  Ainge and the Bulls are gonna do what they wanna do.  I'm just hopeful for the best outcome as a fan of the Celtics.

I never suggested Davis was better than Butler.  I said Butler is premium-brand Ricky Davis.  The stats speak for themselves.  Prime Ricky Davis put up similar stats.  Their career stats are just about even.   Unfortunately, we can't hop in a time machine, grab prime Ricky Davis, and stick him next to beast-mode Pau Gasol in a well-oiled defense-oriented Bulls team to see how well Davis would perform.  Would he be 80% of Butler?  70%?  Who knows.

Really, it's the general dislike of Ricky Davis that caused such a negative reaction.  Had I instead said, "Butler is overrated... I'm fine with adding him, but be careful that he doesn't end up like Rudy Gay.   Don't overpay for him unless it's the key to adding a superstar like Durant via free agency", I imagine there'd be less hostility about my obviously comical comparison. 

And if the prices are what the media seems to suggest they are (the top 6 pick, #16, #23, and probably Crowder or Bradley), we best have a follow-up plan if we're going all-in on Butler.

Re: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston
« Reply #183 on: April 29, 2016, 04:43:44 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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You can't claim Butler is a superstar above criticism while at the same time arguing his price should be cheap. 


WHO IS CLAIMING THAT?

Mike

To get back to seriousness. I do think Butler can be a superstar.

...

Maybe they really do pick Hoiberg over Butler...

Yeah it totally makes sense to choose a coach over a budding superstar.

You neatly edited out the rest of my post where I said it was possible because their front office is so incredibly dysfunctional. If you don't get how the front office is dysfunctional and has made a ton of stupid moves in the last decade I don't really know where to start.

Also dude, editing my quotes around from a post to remove the meaning is pretty crappy. It is one thing to misunderstand what someone was says, but intentionally manipulating their posts to make them say something else is kind of crappy, even for you.
i didn't edit your post.  I highlighted the only relevant bits. That you think butler can be a superstar and you think the Bulls might pick a coach over him.   Dysfunctional or not, that's a comical premise.

Butler likely isn't going to be a superstar.  If you believe the Bulls will trade him for picks, it must mean the Bulls don't think he will be a superstar either.

He's still a nice player who could help.  I'd be fine with adding him at the right price.

Just like if anyone believes the Kings will trade DMC for picks, it must mean Sacramento doesn't think he is good enough to build a team around.
cousins hasn't been traded for picks. There's been no sign they are open to trading him for picks.  There are no rumors that he will be traded for picks.  And it's believed that cousins has considerable baggage.  As far as I know, butler doesn't have any major baggage and isn't demanding a trade - so it would be interesting if the Bulls dumped him.  But of course, butler is merely a borderline star - it's totally plausible he'd he traded.  They will ask for a lot despite this.   I'm not sure the price will make sense for us.

Butler is a bordeline star?

Are you honestly serious?  You talk about Jahlil Okafor like he's the second coming of god, and you refer to Jimmy Butler as a 'borderline star'??? 

Come on man - I generally respect the comments you make, but this is simply insane. 

Butler is a 21 / 5 / 5 guy and an elite defender.  He his game has no real glaring weaknesses, and his personality is a coach's dream.  He is arguably the best shooting guard in the entire NBA, and at 26 years of age he still has potential to get better.

I must admit, I am completely bewildered as to how you could refer to Butler as a 'borderline star'.
When did I talk about Okafor as the second coming of God?  Lol.   If you hate Okafor, take that up with Danny ainge - who per several reports came close to landing Okafor at the deadline for a package built around the pick.  Presumably butler had cost and will cost significantly more than that.  It sounds like we made inquires and the price was too high.

And yeah, butler is a borderline star.  He's maybe a notch above Thomas.  Take those two guys and pair them with a big man DPOY candidate like Noah in his prime and you'll probably make the second round.

Here's the thing with butler -  at minimum he's costing you all our picks, right?  Do you think he'd also cost crowder or Bradley ?

Someone made the comment earlier that butler can become a superstar.  Eh. I doubt it.  Someone made the comment that if you add butler without impacting our core, the team would threaten for the finals.  I don't buy it, but let's talk about it.

Let's pretend that the Bulls are so convinced in Butler's inability to be a franchise player that they actually decide to trade butler for our picks.  Add butler to our starting lineup. Whose minutes is he taking?  Who gets the short straw on minutes now?  Does he start next to crowder and Thomas with Bradley on the bench taking smarts minutes ?   Is he starting over Crowder?   Are we just replacing turners minutes ?   Someone is getting minutes eaten.  It will be an upgrade for sure, but if we are talking about just swapping our crowder or Bradley for butler is it really going to be a big enough upgrade to take this mediocre team to a championship?  Nah.   So if we are paying big time prices to bring in butler we better be certain of our free agency potential.  We'd need to have follow up moves to make it worthwhile.   

Hence why I say I'm not comfortable going all-in for butler unless is guarantees us Durant.  Id prefer the alternative of using the pick to take another big time prospect, keeping Bradley and crowder, and hoping a better option presents itself.
This is a fairly reasonable position, unlike your nonsense from earlier comparing Butler to Ricky Davis.  That was total hogwash.
That only upset people because butler is overrated and Davis was underrated.  It's the same reason people get all salty when Zach Lowe and Bill Simmons say Marcus smart might someday be as good as tony Allen... Or when someone in the media suggests Crowder is the modern James Posey. Nobody wants a ceiling placed on their future - especially by using underrated ghosts from their past.

And anyways, the fact that Davis has almost identical career stats to butler and had a similar statistical peak doesn't mean that butler can't continue to play at a high level.  We don't know how butler would play on a brad Stevens Celtic team.  We don't know how Ricky Davis would have played on a tom thib elite defensive team.  We don't know what butlers advanced stats would have looked like on a bottom feeder early 00s Celtics squad.  It doesn't matter.  Mostly, it's just funny how similar the stats are.  I think people reacted hostile to the comments because butler is a binkie.  I thought only Celtic players could be binkies around here but apparently butler is so desirable he gets the same defense mechanism.  So when someone points out butler has the same stats as Davis, it's the equivalent of your granny telling you you're starting to look so much like you dad as you get older - which really makes you angry, because you think your dad is a fat deadbeat and granny is losing her marbles.  But mostly it just upsets you because when you look in the mirror, you realize granny might be right.  In this example, I'm granny losing her marbles.
No people called you out for it, because Ricky Davis was not nearly as good as Jimmy Butler was.  It was a garbage comparison.  And the stats are skewed because Butler was slow to develop.  Davis averaged 20 ppg one time (the seasons on either side of that 20 were under 12 and under 14.5 ppg) and his eFG% in that one season was 43.5%.  Butler has gone back to back seasons at 20 or more ppg and his eFG% was respectively 50.2% and 48.5%.  Butler has shown a consistent trend of improvement.  Butler is a significantly better defender than Davis ever was.  This is borne out statistically, via honors, and via anyone that watches either of them play basketball. (For example, Davis career best PER was 16.1, Butler's last two seasons are each 21.3 - Davis ORTG 102, DRTG 109 - Butler ORTG 116, DRTG 104 - VORP Davis 6.5, Butler 13 - BPM Davis -0.8, Butler 3.1 - and on and on and on). 

It was and always will be a stupid comparison and it is why you lost people from your underlying argument that you don't want to overpay for Butler because he isn't a franchise player (I firmly agree with that part - Butler is not a franchise player).  That is a fair conclusion to make, but basing it off of a nonsense comparison is hogwash and is quite frankly stupid.
Bold comments.  You say he was slow to develop.  That might be partially true.  It also might have to do with surrounding talent and system.  Who was getting the attention of defenses on that team.  How that defense was structured.  Who was coaching that team, etc.  Like I said above, stick prime Ricky Davis with a 20/10 big man like Pau Gasol under a Tom Thib lead defense and maybe his stats (which were about even with Butler) aren't as empty. 

Also, when people quote advanced stats, do they actually understand what those advanced stats are showing?  If Butler's on a team loaded with talent that wins, isn't it obvious he'd have favorable advance stats that factor in win percentage?   If Butler's backup is weak while Ricky Davis' backup is 3-time first team all-defense Tony Allen, isn't it a given that his +/- stats would be impacted?
Jimmy Butler played in 42 games and 359 total minutes his rookie year.  He averaged 2.6 ppg.  His second year he averaged 8.6 ppg in about 26 minutes a game.  Third year up to 13.1 ppg and 39 minutes a game - so finally some real minutes.  Played same amount of minutes his 4th season but jumped the scoring up to 20 a game.   You used Butler's career stats to make your point, without accounting for him barely playing his 1st season and being nothing more than a role player his 2nd season.  Thus, you choose a nonsensical position by even using career stats for a guy who has played in 5 seasons vs. someone's entire career.  You did that because it made the numbers closer, which is a stupid proposition when you are discussing career peaks not career totals. 

Jimmy Butler is a significantly better player than Ricky Davis was.  It isn't close.  You need to stop arguing that point because you are just making yourself look dumber.  There are not statistically measures that support your position.  NONE.
I've fine with making myself look stupid.  I'm at peace with it.  I think we'd all be better off if we embraced our insignificance.  Ainge and the Bulls are gonna do what they wanna do.  I'm just hopeful for the best outcome as a fan of the Celtics.

I never suggested Davis was better than Butler.  I said Butler is premium-brand Ricky Davis.  The stats speak for themselves.  Prime Ricky Davis put up similar stats.  Their career stats are just about even.   Unfortunately, we can't hop in a time machine, grab prime Ricky Davis, and stick him next to beast-mode Pau Gasol in a well-oiled defense-oriented Bulls team to see how well Davis would perform.  Would he be 80% of Butler?  70%?  Who knows.

Really, it's the general dislike of Ricky Davis that caused such a negative reaction.  Had I instead said, "Butler is overrated... I'm fine with adding him, but be careful that he doesn't end up like Rudy Gay.   Don't overpay for him unless it's the key to adding a superstar like Durant via free agency", I imagine there'd be less hostility about my obviously comical comparison. 

And if the prices are what the media seems to suggest they are (the top 6 pick, #16, #23, and probably Crowder or Bradley), we best have a follow-up plan if we're going all-in on Butler.
I disagree with Moranis on a lot of stuff, but in this case I couldn't agree with him more. You really are just bringing down the board right now and at an apex of spewing garbage. It sucks it is the offseason now and it kind of sucks. Let's reign in the efforts to jam this stuff down everyone's throats and never back down. It is painful for everyone involved and ruins the discourse of the board. 

Re: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston
« Reply #184 on: April 29, 2016, 04:44:36 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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@LarBrd
Context always matters. I think that rule makes the Ricky Davis comparison stupid.
Stop trying to be misleading. I dont get it. You say he played with a "former MVP" as if Derrick Rose is Lebron James. Derrick Rose was one of the worst starting point gaurds in the NBA this year.

You list the counting stats knowing Jimmy Butler is one of the better 2 way guys in the league and Davis was not known for his defense.

Also you say he was on a 42 win team which is fine in itself because there is a monstrous gap between 42 wins and 30. The Twolves won 29 games this season. However even this is misleading as Jimmy suffered a pretty rough injury causing him to miss 15 games. In those 15 games the Bulls lost 10. In games Jimmy played the Bulls were on pace for 47 wins.

I agree with your overall premise. Jimmy Butler is not a superstar who can carry his team to a top 4 seed year in and year out so dont sell the farm for him. However I think he is certainly a star.

As far as 2 gaurds go he is probably top 3 in the league.

Edit: Davis was on a 33 win team not 30, that was my bad. i suppose a decent comp here is Melo. He put up 22 8 and 4 on a 32 win Knick team this year. If you want to just find pretty good stat lines on bad teams, theyll always be there. Plus 26 year old Melo would look pretty good to me.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 04:50:38 PM by Ilikesports17 »
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Re: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston
« Reply #185 on: April 29, 2016, 04:47:20 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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You can't claim Butler is a superstar above criticism while at the same time arguing his price should be cheap. 


WHO IS CLAIMING THAT?

Mike

To get back to seriousness. I do think Butler can be a superstar.

...

Maybe they really do pick Hoiberg over Butler...

Yeah it totally makes sense to choose a coach over a budding superstar.

You neatly edited out the rest of my post where I said it was possible because their front office is so incredibly dysfunctional. If you don't get how the front office is dysfunctional and has made a ton of stupid moves in the last decade I don't really know where to start.

Also dude, editing my quotes around from a post to remove the meaning is pretty crappy. It is one thing to misunderstand what someone was says, but intentionally manipulating their posts to make them say something else is kind of crappy, even for you.
i didn't edit your post.  I highlighted the only relevant bits. That you think butler can be a superstar and you think the Bulls might pick a coach over him.   Dysfunctional or not, that's a comical premise.

Butler likely isn't going to be a superstar.  If you believe the Bulls will trade him for picks, it must mean the Bulls don't think he will be a superstar either.

He's still a nice player who could help.  I'd be fine with adding him at the right price.

Just like if anyone believes the Kings will trade DMC for picks, it must mean Sacramento doesn't think he is good enough to build a team around.
cousins hasn't been traded for picks. There's been no sign they are open to trading him for picks.  There are no rumors that he will be traded for picks.  And it's believed that cousins has considerable baggage.  As far as I know, butler doesn't have any major baggage and isn't demanding a trade - so it would be interesting if the Bulls dumped him.  But of course, butler is merely a borderline star - it's totally plausible he'd he traded.  They will ask for a lot despite this.   I'm not sure the price will make sense for us.

Butler is a bordeline star?

Are you honestly serious?  You talk about Jahlil Okafor like he's the second coming of god, and you refer to Jimmy Butler as a 'borderline star'??? 

Come on man - I generally respect the comments you make, but this is simply insane. 

Butler is a 21 / 5 / 5 guy and an elite defender.  He his game has no real glaring weaknesses, and his personality is a coach's dream.  He is arguably the best shooting guard in the entire NBA, and at 26 years of age he still has potential to get better.

I must admit, I am completely bewildered as to how you could refer to Butler as a 'borderline star'.
When did I talk about Okafor as the second coming of God?  Lol.   If you hate Okafor, take that up with Danny ainge - who per several reports came close to landing Okafor at the deadline for a package built around the pick.  Presumably butler had cost and will cost significantly more than that.  It sounds like we made inquires and the price was too high.

And yeah, butler is a borderline star.  He's maybe a notch above Thomas.  Take those two guys and pair them with a big man DPOY candidate like Noah in his prime and you'll probably make the second round.

Here's the thing with butler -  at minimum he's costing you all our picks, right?  Do you think he'd also cost crowder or Bradley ?

Someone made the comment earlier that butler can become a superstar.  Eh. I doubt it.  Someone made the comment that if you add butler without impacting our core, the team would threaten for the finals.  I don't buy it, but let's talk about it.

Let's pretend that the Bulls are so convinced in Butler's inability to be a franchise player that they actually decide to trade butler for our picks.  Add butler to our starting lineup. Whose minutes is he taking?  Who gets the short straw on minutes now?  Does he start next to crowder and Thomas with Bradley on the bench taking smarts minutes ?   Is he starting over Crowder?   Are we just replacing turners minutes ?   Someone is getting minutes eaten.  It will be an upgrade for sure, but if we are talking about just swapping our crowder or Bradley for butler is it really going to be a big enough upgrade to take this mediocre team to a championship?  Nah.   So if we are paying big time prices to bring in butler we better be certain of our free agency potential.  We'd need to have follow up moves to make it worthwhile.   

Hence why I say I'm not comfortable going all-in for butler unless is guarantees us Durant.  Id prefer the alternative of using the pick to take another big time prospect, keeping Bradley and crowder, and hoping a better option presents itself.
This is a fairly reasonable position, unlike your nonsense from earlier comparing Butler to Ricky Davis.  That was total hogwash.
That only upset people because butler is overrated and Davis was underrated.  It's the same reason people get all salty when Zach Lowe and Bill Simmons say Marcus smart might someday be as good as tony Allen... Or when someone in the media suggests Crowder is the modern James Posey. Nobody wants a ceiling placed on their future - especially by using underrated ghosts from their past.

And anyways, the fact that Davis has almost identical career stats to butler and had a similar statistical peak doesn't mean that butler can't continue to play at a high level.  We don't know how butler would play on a brad Stevens Celtic team.  We don't know how Ricky Davis would have played on a tom thib elite defensive team.  We don't know what butlers advanced stats would have looked like on a bottom feeder early 00s Celtics squad.  It doesn't matter.  Mostly, it's just funny how similar the stats are.  I think people reacted hostile to the comments because butler is a binkie.  I thought only Celtic players could be binkies around here but apparently butler is so desirable he gets the same defense mechanism.  So when someone points out butler has the same stats as Davis, it's the equivalent of your granny telling you you're starting to look so much like you dad as you get older - which really makes you angry, because you think your dad is a fat deadbeat and granny is losing her marbles.  But mostly it just upsets you because when you look in the mirror, you realize granny might be right.  In this example, I'm granny losing her marbles.
No people called you out for it, because Ricky Davis was not nearly as good as Jimmy Butler was.  It was a garbage comparison.  And the stats are skewed because Butler was slow to develop.  Davis averaged 20 ppg one time (the seasons on either side of that 20 were under 12 and under 14.5 ppg) and his eFG% in that one season was 43.5%.  Butler has gone back to back seasons at 20 or more ppg and his eFG% was respectively 50.2% and 48.5%.  Butler has shown a consistent trend of improvement.  Butler is a significantly better defender than Davis ever was.  This is borne out statistically, via honors, and via anyone that watches either of them play basketball. (For example, Davis career best PER was 16.1, Butler's last two seasons are each 21.3 - Davis ORTG 102, DRTG 109 - Butler ORTG 116, DRTG 104 - VORP Davis 6.5, Butler 13 - BPM Davis -0.8, Butler 3.1 - and on and on and on). 

It was and always will be a stupid comparison and it is why you lost people from your underlying argument that you don't want to overpay for Butler because he isn't a franchise player (I firmly agree with that part - Butler is not a franchise player).  That is a fair conclusion to make, but basing it off of a nonsense comparison is hogwash and is quite frankly stupid.
Bold comments.  You say he was slow to develop.  That might be partially true.  It also might have to do with surrounding talent and system.  Who was getting the attention of defenses on that team.  How that defense was structured.  Who was coaching that team, etc.  Like I said above, stick prime Ricky Davis with a 20/10 big man like Pau Gasol under a Tom Thib lead defense and maybe his stats (which were about even with Butler) aren't as empty. 

Also, when people quote advanced stats, do they actually understand what those advanced stats are showing?  If Butler's on a team loaded with talent that wins, isn't it obvious he'd have favorable advance stats that factor in win percentage?   If Butler's backup is weak while Ricky Davis' backup is 3-time first team all-defense Tony Allen, isn't it a given that his +/- stats would be impacted?
Jimmy Butler played in 42 games and 359 total minutes his rookie year.  He averaged 2.6 ppg.  His second year he averaged 8.6 ppg in about 26 minutes a game.  Third year up to 13.1 ppg and 39 minutes a game - so finally some real minutes.  Played same amount of minutes his 4th season but jumped the scoring up to 20 a game.   You used Butler's career stats to make your point, without accounting for him barely playing his 1st season and being nothing more than a role player his 2nd season.  Thus, you choose a nonsensical position by even using career stats for a guy who has played in 5 seasons vs. someone's entire career.  You did that because it made the numbers closer, which is a stupid proposition when you are discussing career peaks not career totals. 

Jimmy Butler is a significantly better player than Ricky Davis was.  It isn't close.  You need to stop arguing that point because you are just making yourself look dumber.  There are not statistically measures that support your position.  NONE.
I've fine with making myself look stupid.  I'm at peace with it.  I think we'd all be better off if we embraced our insignificance.  Ainge and the Bulls are gonna do what they wanna do.  I'm just hopeful for the best outcome as a fan of the Celtics.

I never suggested Davis was better than Butler.  I said Butler is premium-brand Ricky Davis.  The stats speak for themselves.  Prime Ricky Davis put up similar stats.  Their career stats are just about even.   Unfortunately, we can't hop in a time machine, grab prime Ricky Davis, and stick him next to beast-mode Pau Gasol in a well-oiled defense-oriented Bulls team to see how well Davis would perform.  Would he be 80% of Butler?  70%?  Who knows.

Really, it's the general dislike of Ricky Davis that caused such a negative reaction.  Had I instead said, "Butler is overrated... I'm fine with adding him, but be careful that he doesn't end up like Rudy Gay.   Don't overpay for him unless it's the key to adding a superstar like Durant via free agency", I imagine there'd be less hostility about my obviously comical comparison. 

And if the prices are what the media seems to suggest they are (the top 6 pick, #16, #23, and probably Crowder or Bradley), we best have a follow-up plan if we're going all-in on Butler.
I disagree with Moranis on a lot of stuff, but in this case I couldn't agree with him more. You really are just bringing down the board right now and at an apex of spewing garbage. It sucks it is the offseason now and it kind of sucks. Let's reign in the efforts to jam this stuff down everyone's throats and never back down. It is painful for everyone involved and ruins the discourse of the board.
Clay, pretty sure you disagree with almost everything I say on this board, but thank you for your comments regardless.   I'll take nickagneta's advice on this one and take them with a grain of salt. 

Also, we should be celebrating.  We're disagreeing about a guy who isn't on the Celtics and probably never will be on the Celtics.  Isn't it nice to see me "hating" on someone who doesn't play for the team?  It's kind of refreshing, isn't it?  Did you ever think you'd see a day where I'd advocate keeping guys on the team (like Crowder, Bradley and Smart) and embracing our draft pick - over trading them for a 2x all-star in his prime?

I'm super pumped about this offseason.  Boston is in great position.  I don't think they need to get desperate with a Jimmy Butler overpay.  We're lucky we're in that position.

Re: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston
« Reply #186 on: April 29, 2016, 05:05:03 PM »

Offline jbp126

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How concerned are people about Ricky Davis 2.0's 3-point shooting? I know that was an issue early in his career and he'd seemed to improve that part of his game last year (.378 in '14-'15) but he dropped back to a below average 3-point shooter this past season (.311).

Maybe it was that ugly shooting last night or maybe it was the poor 3-point shooting all season, but I don't see how he helps us in this area at all.

Re: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston
« Reply #187 on: April 29, 2016, 05:13:04 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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How concerned are people about Ricky Davis 2.0's 3-point shooting? I know that was an issue early in his career and he'd seemed to improve that part of his game last year (.378 in '14-'15) but he dropped back to a below average 3-point shooter this past season (.311).

Maybe it was that ugly shooting last night or maybe it was the poor 3-point shooting all season, but I don't see how he helps us in this area at all.
Spacing can impact shooting.  How much of an impact did it make for the guards when they added a beast-mode Pau Gasol down low?   Like I said in a previous post, Paul Pierce went from shooting 40%/29% in the down year without much surrounding talent in 2004 to 49%/38% alongside Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen.   Some of Butler's surrounding talent regressed this year... hence them missing the playoffs and his percentages dropping back down again. 

He's still a good player.  I'm not saying he's not a good player.  If butler was a free agent like Derozan, I could see going hard after Butler.  But Butler is a trade-candidate and he's going to come at a considerable price if you want to add him.  Luckily most people here seem SuUUuuuper confident in Butler's abilities, so I guess they wouldn't mind seeing a crazy offer of Bradley + Crowder + all the picks for Butler.  I personally only do such a trade if he acts as the Ray Allen that leads to the KG/Durant aftermath.  If Durant wants Butler, go get Butler at any cost.  If we come out on top in the big picture, maybe it's a price worth paying.  In a bubble, I HATED adding 32 year old injury-prone Ray Allen for a package built around the #5 pick.  In the context of it being the key to KG waiving his no-trade clause (which he previously was unwilling to do when Boston tried acquiring him), it worked out really well.

Note:  Jahlil Okafor is pretty despised by most on this forum.  I've expressed support of adding him if the Brooklyn pick doesn't end up #1 and Ainge is able to grab him in a package built around the pick.  Supposedly, Ainge actually almost grabbed Okafor at the deadline, but Philly backed out.  The irony is, Okafor (terrible defense aside) has the potential to develop into the kind of old school dominant low post presence that could actually open things up for the Jimmy Butler/Ricky Davis's of the world.  Our team in the playoffs this year seemed entirely reliant on contested jumpers.  Adding a guy like Okafor might actually open things up for shooters, because he'd be a dangerous weapon inside that would command attention.  Sorta like beast-mode Pau Gasol's impact on the Bulls.  I'd be kind of curious to see what Bradley, Crowder, etc were able to do with a competent offensive big drawing attention.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 05:21:37 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston
« Reply #188 on: April 29, 2016, 05:27:41 PM »

Offline jbp126

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How concerned are people about Ricky Davis 2.0's 3-point shooting? I know that was an issue early in his career and he'd seemed to improve that part of his game last year (.378 in '14-'15) but he dropped back to a below average 3-point shooter this past season (.311).

Maybe it was that ugly shooting last night or maybe it was the poor 3-point shooting all season, but I don't see how he helps us in this area at all.
Spacing can impact shooting.  How much of an impact did it make for the guards when they added a beast-mode Pau Gasol down low?   Like I said in a previous post, Paul Pierce went from shooting 40%/29% in the down year without much surrounding talent in 2004 to 49%/38% alongside Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen.   Some of Butler's surrounding talent regressed this year... hence them missing the playoffs and his percentages dropping back down again. 

He's still a good player.  I'm not saying he's not a good player.  If butler was a free agent like Derozan, I could see going hard after Butler.  But Butler is a trade-candidate and he's going to come at a considerable price if you want to add him.  Luckily most people here seem SuUUuuuper confident in Butler's abilities, so I guess they wouldn't mind seeing a crazy offer of Bradley + Crowder + all the picks for Butler.  I personally only do such a trade if he acts as the Ray Allen that leads to the KG/Durant aftermath.  If Durant wants Butler, go get Butler at any cost.  If we come out on top in the big picture, maybe it's a price worth paying.  In a bubble, I HATED adding 32 year old injury-prone Ray Allen for a package built around the #5 pick.  In the context of it being the key to KG waiving his no-trade clause (which he previously was unwilling to do when Boston tried acquiring him), it worked out really well.


I'm not totally convinced Jimmy Jeeves is a good 3-point shooter and we kind of need a great one. Could be due to spacing and carrying the load on offense and it's just one knock on his game but 3-point shooting is a huuuuge need for us.

Pierce had 2 seasons of hovering around a .300 3-pt% but was a good-great shooter before and after that and shooting was never really a question mark in his game.

Re: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston
« Reply #189 on: April 29, 2016, 05:30:11 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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How concerned are people about Ricky Davis 2.0's 3-point shooting? I know that was an issue early in his career and he'd seemed to improve that part of his game last year (.378 in '14-'15) but he dropped back to a below average 3-point shooter this past season (.311).

Maybe it was that ugly shooting last night or maybe it was the poor 3-point shooting all season, but I don't see how he helps us in this area at all.
Spacing can impact shooting.  How much of an impact did it make for the guards when they added a beast-mode Pau Gasol down low?   Like I said in a previous post, Paul Pierce went from shooting 40%/29% in the down year without much surrounding talent in 2004 to 49%/38% alongside Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen.   Some of Butler's surrounding talent regressed this year... hence them missing the playoffs and his percentages dropping back down again. 

He's still a good player.  I'm not saying he's not a good player.  If butler was a free agent like Derozan, I could see going hard after Butler.  But Butler is a trade-candidate and he's going to come at a considerable price if you want to add him.  Luckily most people here seem SuUUuuuper confident in Butler's abilities, so I guess they wouldn't mind seeing a crazy offer of Bradley + Crowder + all the picks for Butler.  I personally only do such a trade if he acts as the Ray Allen that leads to the KG/Durant aftermath.  If Durant wants Butler, go get Butler at any cost.  If we come out on top in the big picture, maybe it's a price worth paying.  In a bubble, I HATED adding 32 year old injury-prone Ray Allen for a package built around the #5 pick.  In the context of it being the key to KG waiving his no-trade clause (which he previously was unwilling to do when Boston tried acquiring him), it worked out really well.

Note:  Jahlil Okafor is pretty despised by most on this forum.  I've expressed support of adding him if the Brooklyn pick doesn't end up #1 and Ainge is able to grab him in a package built around the pick.  Supposedly, Ainge actually almost grabbed Okafor at the deadline, but Philly backed out.  The irony is, Okafor (terrible defense aside) has the potential to develop into the kind of old school dominant low post presence that could actually open things up for the Jimmy Butler/Ricky Davis's of the world.  Our team in the playoffs this year seemed entirely reliant on contested jumpers.  Adding a guy like Okafor might actually open things up for shooters, because he'd be a dangerous weapon inside that would command attention.  Sorta like beast-mode Pau Gasol's impact on the Bulls.  I'd be kind of curious to see what Bradley, Crowder, etc were able to do with a competent offensive big drawing attention.

What is beast mode Gasol?

Re: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston
« Reply #190 on: April 29, 2016, 07:02:11 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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How concerned are people about Ricky Davis 2.0's 3-point shooting? I know that was an issue early in his career and he'd seemed to improve that part of his game last year (.378 in '14-'15) but he dropped back to a below average 3-point shooter this past season (.311).

Maybe it was that ugly shooting last night or maybe it was the poor 3-point shooting all season, but I don't see how he helps us in this area at all.
Spacing can impact shooting.  How much of an impact did it make for the guards when they added a beast-mode Pau Gasol down low?   Like I said in a previous post, Paul Pierce went from shooting 40%/29% in the down year without much surrounding talent in 2004 to 49%/38% alongside Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen.   Some of Butler's surrounding talent regressed this year... hence them missing the playoffs and his percentages dropping back down again. 

He's still a good player.  I'm not saying he's not a good player.  If butler was a free agent like Derozan, I could see going hard after Butler.  But Butler is a trade-candidate and he's going to come at a considerable price if you want to add him.  Luckily most people here seem SuUUuuuper confident in Butler's abilities, so I guess they wouldn't mind seeing a crazy offer of Bradley + Crowder + all the picks for Butler.  I personally only do such a trade if he acts as the Ray Allen that leads to the KG/Durant aftermath.  If Durant wants Butler, go get Butler at any cost.  If we come out on top in the big picture, maybe it's a price worth paying.  In a bubble, I HATED adding 32 year old injury-prone Ray Allen for a package built around the #5 pick.  In the context of it being the key to KG waiving his no-trade clause (which he previously was unwilling to do when Boston tried acquiring him), it worked out really well.

Note:  Jahlil Okafor is pretty despised by most on this forum.  I've expressed support of adding him if the Brooklyn pick doesn't end up #1 and Ainge is able to grab him in a package built around the pick.  Supposedly, Ainge actually almost grabbed Okafor at the deadline, but Philly backed out.  The irony is, Okafor (terrible defense aside) has the potential to develop into the kind of old school dominant low post presence that could actually open things up for the Jimmy Butler/Ricky Davis's of the world.  Our team in the playoffs this year seemed entirely reliant on contested jumpers.  Adding a guy like Okafor might actually open things up for shooters, because he'd be a dangerous weapon inside that would command attention.  Sorta like beast-mode Pau Gasol's impact on the Bulls.  I'd be kind of curious to see what Bradley, Crowder, etc were able to do with a competent offensive big drawing attention.

What is beast mode Gasol?

6x All-star.  He was the best player on back-to-back championship teams.   He's a 4x All-NBA player.

And it's no coincidence that Butler's efficiency peaked when a rejuvenated hall-of-fame Gasol showed up and lead the Bulls team to 50 wins by averaging 18.5 points, 11.8 rebounds, 2.7 assists, 1.9 blocks, 49%/46%/80% shooting last season.   Gasol was a top 15 player last year.  In fancy stats like "estimated wins added", Gasol was 7th in the league last season.  13th in the league in PER.   7th in "value added". 

Beast-mode Gasol went a long way towards taking attention away from the Bulls guards.



You saw a similar jump in efficiency when Paul Pierce went from playing next to Antoine Walker to playing next to Kevin Garnett.   You saw a similar impact when Kobe Bryant went from leading a borderline playoff team/lotto squad (like the 34 win lotto squad in 2005 that he shot 43% FG and 34% from three on) to suddenly seeing his efficiency peak out at 46%/36% on a 57-65 win back-to-back-to-back Finals team riding on the Pau Gasol's coattails. 

For all we know, Ricky Davis would have made the All-NBA team on the shoulders of Beast Mode Gasol. 
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 07:07:54 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston
« Reply #191 on: April 29, 2016, 07:08:11 PM »

Offline Vox_Populi

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You had behaved so well in the weeks leading up to the post-season and during.

Re: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston
« Reply #192 on: April 29, 2016, 07:32:10 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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You had behaved so well in the weeks leading up to the post-season and during.

I think the team broke him. We are now back to double down double down mode.

Re: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston
« Reply #193 on: April 29, 2016, 07:45:03 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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Are there people in this thread who don't understand that a 20ppg scorer can be undesirable trash?
"The worst thing that ever happened in sports was sports radio, and the internet is sports radio on steroids with lower IQs.” -- Brian Burke, former Toronto Maple Leafs senior adviser, at the 2013 MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference

Re: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston
« Reply #194 on: April 29, 2016, 08:21:24 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Are there people in this thread who don't understand that a 20ppg scorer can be undesirable trash?
Yeah I mean.  It's possible for a guy like Kemba Walker, Ricky Davis, Rudy Gay, Jimmy Butler, Ricky Davis, Jeff Green, etc to put up decent stats while not being legit stars that will carry a team to a championship.   If Butler was a franchise player, the Bulls wouldn't be considering moving him.  I wouldn't call him trash, though.  He could probably help if his ego is kept in check.  Maybe him and Thomas would develop chemistry.  It just depends on what we're giving up.  I don't see him as the answer to the superstar problem.