Author Topic: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston  (Read 33151 times)

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Re: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston
« Reply #165 on: April 28, 2016, 09:27:45 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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You can't claim Butler is a superstar above criticism while at the same time arguing his price should be cheap. 


WHO IS CLAIMING THAT?

Mike

To get back to seriousness. I do think Butler can be a superstar.

...

Maybe they really do pick Hoiberg over Butler...

Yeah it totally makes sense to choose a coach over a budding superstar.

You neatly edited out the rest of my post where I said it was possible because their front office is so incredibly dysfunctional. If you don't get how the front office is dysfunctional and has made a ton of stupid moves in the last decade I don't really know where to start.

Also dude, editing my quotes around from a post to remove the meaning is pretty crappy. It is one thing to misunderstand what someone was says, but intentionally manipulating their posts to make them say something else is kind of crappy, even for you.
i didn't edit your post.  I highlighted the only relevant bits. That you think butler can be a superstar and you think the Bulls might pick a coach over him.   Dysfunctional or not, that's a comical premise.

Butler likely isn't going to be a superstar.  If you believe the Bulls will trade him for picks, it must mean the Bulls don't think he will be a superstar either.

He's still a nice player who could help.  I'd be fine with adding him at the right price.

Everyone on this thread that has posted has agreed you edited my
Comments In a stupid/unfair way. Be an adult and admit it was stupid. Or dig deeper and be you.
Dunno what you are talking about honestly.  I pulled two pieces from your lengthy post that I thought were interesting.  The top part and the bottom part.  Did I edit those ?

Re: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston
« Reply #166 on: April 28, 2016, 09:35:21 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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To get back to seriousness. I do think Butler can be a superstar. I don't think he is Lebron or Durant or Curry who probably get you get a top 5 seed each year if healthy with very little else on the roster. However, I do think if you magically added him to our roster without taking anything away we would challenge to win the East. With a few other additions (more shooting and a little better interior defender) I think we could be right where we need to be. He definitely is a good defender, however, the biggest difference for our team with him is that he can really create his own shot and draw contact. His presence would really open things up Bradley, Crowder and Thomas to get better looks on the offensive end, and more opportunity for Thomas to drive.

I think he is the ultimate buy-low candidate right now. The bulls, partly through bad injury luck, have really screwed up their team. Injuries turned Noah from an above averaging starting center to a below average bench player before ultimately sending to the IR. Rose's injuries really sapped him of the super elite athleticism that made him so good and he hasn't made adjustments to his game that he needs to be a more well rounded less athletic player (no improvement in shooting, no improvement in being a distributer off drives). Gibson is an average big man that was in and out of the lineup all year. Portis is a nice prospect, but was not ready to be a rotation player on a playoff team and Mirotic seemed to not get any better between last year and this year and has a real propensity to jack up deep 3's. Gasol seems like he is completely empty stats at this point. He grabs an amazing amount of rebounds and can certainly still score, but seemed to really struggle on defense. You look at that roster, and watch them play (which I actually did a decent amount this year) and it is really not on Butler that they did not make the playoffs. I think he will definitely continue to grow and develop as a star on whatever team he joins.

So to answer the question of why the Bulls would trade such a star? Well what we can hope is that their front office is as dysfunctional as it has appeared the last few years. Forcing Thibs out, hiring Hoiberg, seemingly holding on to a core group that has continued to erode for the last 4 years to watch Noah and Rose become complete non-assets. Maybe they really do pick Hoiberg over Butler...

Clay if it makes you feel any better, here's your full quote with the two parts I read in bold.  I'm a skimmer.  Mbung said nobody thought butler would be a superstar.  You said butler could be a superstar.   You cap off your thoughts by suggesting the Bulls would pick their coach over butler.  It's just a funny thought to me. 

For what it's worth, I agree with you in that the Bulls might trade butler.  He's not a franchise player and is unlikely to ever be a franchise player so if the Bulls can get an overpay for him, they might decide it's the best big picture move for the organization.

Alls I'm saying is that I wouldn't overpay for butler unless it guaranteed us Durant.  Butler is gettable for a reason. The price will be high ... I wouldn't do it unless it was part 1 in a multi-part plan that would immediately vault us to contention.  Adding him alone isn't going to do it and paying that price might clear out the pantry too soon for us to make the necessary follow up move.

Re: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston
« Reply #167 on: April 29, 2016, 12:34:40 AM »

Offline Future Celtics Owner

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You can't claim Butler is a superstar above criticism while at the same time arguing his price should be cheap. 


WHO IS CLAIMING THAT?

Mike

To get back to seriousness. I do think Butler can be a superstar.

...

Maybe they really do pick Hoiberg over Butler...

Yeah it totally makes sense to choose a coach over a budding superstar.

You neatly edited out the rest of my post where I said it was possible because their front office is so incredibly dysfunctional. If you don't get how the front office is dysfunctional and has made a ton of stupid moves in the last decade I don't really know where to start.

Also dude, editing my quotes around from a post to remove the meaning is pretty crappy. It is one thing to misunderstand what someone was says, but intentionally manipulating their posts to make them say something else is kind of crappy, even for you.
i didn't edit your post.  I highlighted the only relevant bits. That you think butler can be a superstar and you think the Bulls might pick a coach over him.   Dysfunctional or not, that's a comical premise.

Butler likely isn't going to be a superstar.  If you believe the Bulls will trade him for picks, it must mean the Bulls don't think he will be a superstar either.

He's still a nice player who could help.  I'd be fine with adding him at the right price.

Just like if anyone believes the Kings will trade DMC for picks, it must mean Sacramento doesn't think he is good enough to build a team around.
cousins hasn't been traded for picks. There's been no sign they are open to trading him for picks.  There are no rumors that he will be traded for picks.  And it's believed that cousins has considerable baggage.  As far as I know, butler doesn't have any major baggage and isn't demanding a trade - so it would be interesting if the Bulls dumped him.  But of course, butler is merely a borderline star - it's totally plausible he'd he traded.  They will ask for a lot despite this.   I'm not sure the price will make sense for us.

Can you pop in and say this every time someone starts yet another Cousins thread?
Right before the draft GM's, Owner's, and all of basketball will most likely be in a draft hysteria/fever. Ingram and Simmons alone will have months to work on their bodies and game. Both players will have had ample time and training to work on the very few weaknesses that scouts and many of us have evaluated. for example, IMO Simmons jumpshot should be dropping , including 3's.
Ingram will have gotten even more explosive, quicker, and probably starting to get his "grown-man" strength. I also believe that Ingram's all around game will show very well at the combine and at workouts. Both Simmons and Ingram are going to wow people at the combine( Ingram touched the top of the backboard last summer at 17 yo, I think he will be getting even higher)

Also, it is super important for the Celts that at least 1 or 2 players(besides Ingram and Simmons) make a jump/impress scouts....in-case we get the 3-5th selection.

If we get the 1st or 2nd pick IMO that should be more than enough to get Cousins wearing GREEN, and without giving up anything more worth any significant value. Especially since Cousins is under contract for 2 years and even though I do not believe he will pull a Howard and act up to the coach.....that will all be discussed during a trade for him, believe that.

Hope this does happen. Then we are basically getting Cousins for a pick(throw in Rozier or etc.) and we can sell Durant on signing here. Then we still have the Nets pick for 2017, which is a deep draft, and we can possibly select a stud to grow with the team. Then we can sign Ibaka/Westbrook.

This team could be a dynasty. I was only around for 2001-present, so I never saw any of the dynasties.



Re: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston
« Reply #168 on: April 29, 2016, 10:53:21 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I mentioned it in other posts, I think DH is a real possibility for us. With Stevens as his coach he can go back to perform at a very high level. he is an upgrade over Amir. 

Don't get me wrong, i don't love DH, too much mister nice guy, but i think the team culture will rub on him.

Not bad consolation prize.

I agree.

I've never liked Dwight's personality, and even back in his prime I never felt he was a guy who could be the #1 guy on a championship team - always felt he was more of a #2 man.

But there are a couple of very obvious glaring weaknesses on this team right now:

1) Rebounding
2) Efficient inside scoring
3) Interior defence
4) A legit #2 scorer to take pressure off Isaiah
5) Outside shooting

Dwight Howard (when healthy) addresses four out of those 5 problems.  He averaged 14 points (on only 9 attempts), 12 rebounds and 1.5 blocks this year while shooting a career high 62% from the field.  He also had a free throw rate of 79% which is out of this world.

In the playoffs he averaged 13 points (again, on only 10 attempts), 14 rebounds and 1.4 blocks on 54% shooting.

The Rockets are making horrible use of Dwight's talent by underutilising him on offence and trying to use him like he is an Omer Asik or Nerlens Noel - telling him to just defend and rebound and don't worry about anything else.  Dwight is far too good offensively for such a limited role - it's like building a stripped out race car, and then using it to drive to the store and pick up the groceries.

If you look at how Atlanta was trapping Isaiah these last two days by throwing multiple bigs at him - you can't even dream of doing that if you have Dwight Howard in the middle.

Also I can just imagine the P&R dominance of Thomas and Howard - wow.  He would immediately become (by far) the best PG Dwight has ever played with, and Dwight was an elite P&R scorer even back in the Orlando days when they didn't really have a great PG.

Dwight would force the opponents to respect our inside presence on offence, which in turn makes it harder for teams to load up on Isaiah - hence it creates space for him to do his thing.

Thomas, Bradley, Crowder, Jerebko and Dwight could be a really spectacular starting 5.  You have Dwight surrounded by four guys who can shoot the there, and everybody on that team bar Thomas is an excellent defensive player as well.

Throw Butler or Durant into that mix, and you have an instant contender.

Of course there is a gamble - Dwight's health.  I think that's something you just need to take a chance on.  We need a consistently productive big like Dwight who can dominate the paint and help carry the team while Isaiah is out and/or struggling.  There aren't many big men of Dwight's caliber in the NBA.  Even today.



Re: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston
« Reply #169 on: April 29, 2016, 10:56:48 AM »

Offline Chris22

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Whatever it takes to get Durant.
Durant and Ingram is my hope.

Re: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston
« Reply #170 on: April 29, 2016, 11:03:23 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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You can't claim Butler is a superstar above criticism while at the same time arguing his price should be cheap. 


WHO IS CLAIMING THAT?

Mike

To get back to seriousness. I do think Butler can be a superstar.

...

Maybe they really do pick Hoiberg over Butler...

Yeah it totally makes sense to choose a coach over a budding superstar.

You neatly edited out the rest of my post where I said it was possible because their front office is so incredibly dysfunctional. If you don't get how the front office is dysfunctional and has made a ton of stupid moves in the last decade I don't really know where to start.

Also dude, editing my quotes around from a post to remove the meaning is pretty crappy. It is one thing to misunderstand what someone was says, but intentionally manipulating their posts to make them say something else is kind of crappy, even for you.
i didn't edit your post.  I highlighted the only relevant bits. That you think butler can be a superstar and you think the Bulls might pick a coach over him.   Dysfunctional or not, that's a comical premise.

Butler likely isn't going to be a superstar.  If you believe the Bulls will trade him for picks, it must mean the Bulls don't think he will be a superstar either.

He's still a nice player who could help.  I'd be fine with adding him at the right price.

Just like if anyone believes the Kings will trade DMC for picks, it must mean Sacramento doesn't think he is good enough to build a team around.
cousins hasn't been traded for picks. There's been no sign they are open to trading him for picks.  There are no rumors that he will be traded for picks.  And it's believed that cousins has considerable baggage.  As far as I know, butler doesn't have any major baggage and isn't demanding a trade - so it would be interesting if the Bulls dumped him.  But of course, butler is merely a borderline star - it's totally plausible he'd he traded.  They will ask for a lot despite this.   I'm not sure the price will make sense for us.

Butler is a bordeline star?

Are you honestly serious?  You talk about Jahlil Okafor like he's the second coming of god, and you refer to Jimmy Butler as a 'borderline star'??? 

Come on man - I generally respect the comments you make, but this is simply insane. 

Butler is a 21 / 5 / 5 guy and an elite defender.  He his game has no real glaring weaknesses, and his personality is a coach's dream.  He is arguably the best shooting guard in the entire NBA, and at 26 years of age he still has potential to get better.

I must admit, I am completely bewildered as to how you could refer to Butler as a 'borderline star'. 

Re: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston
« Reply #171 on: April 29, 2016, 11:48:43 AM »

Offline MBunge

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You can't claim Butler is a superstar above criticism while at the same time arguing his price should be cheap. 


WHO IS CLAIMING THAT?

Mike

To get back to seriousness. I do think Butler can be a superstar.

...

Maybe they really do pick Hoiberg over Butler...

Yeah it totally makes sense to choose a coach over a budding superstar.

Even by unfairly editing the crap out of that post, you still fail.

WHO IS CLAIMING BUTLER IS "A SUPERSTAR ABOVE CRITICISM" WHILE ALSO ARGUING HIS PRICE SHOULD BE CHEAP?

I realize I might come off a bit abrasive at times but at least I don't relentlessly mischaracterize and distort what other people post to try and make myself look smart.

Mike
Quote from: celticsclay
I think he is the ultimate buy-low candidate right now. The bulls, partly through bad injury luck, have really screwed up their team....So to answer the question of why the Bulls would trade such a star? Well what we can hope is that their front office is as dysfunctional as it has appeared the last few years. Forcing Thibs out, hiring Hoiberg, seemingly holding on to a core group that has continued to erode for the last 4 years to watch Noah and Rose become complete non-assets.
Just quoting the reasoning you alluded to.

NO ONE is saying Butler is a Durant/LeBron level star and he should come cheap.  Some people are saying he's a star and some of those people think he could be gotten relatively cheaply.  Both or either of those contentions may be wrong but neither is at all unreasonable.

Is there something medically wrong with you?  Your trolling game has really gone downhill.  You might want to get yourself checked out.

Mike


Re: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston
« Reply #172 on: April 29, 2016, 12:33:34 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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It would be reasonable to place Butler in the same tier as Paul George.
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Re: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston
« Reply #173 on: April 29, 2016, 01:21:56 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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It would be reasonable to place Butler in the same tier as Paul George.
George is definitely the superior player in my mind, but I think they are similar in that they are really good 2 way wings. George however is bigger and shoots the ball better.
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Re: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston
« Reply #174 on: April 29, 2016, 01:38:10 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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You can't claim Butler is a superstar above criticism while at the same time arguing his price should be cheap. 


WHO IS CLAIMING THAT?

Mike

To get back to seriousness. I do think Butler can be a superstar.

...

Maybe they really do pick Hoiberg over Butler...

Yeah it totally makes sense to choose a coach over a budding superstar.

You neatly edited out the rest of my post where I said it was possible because their front office is so incredibly dysfunctional. If you don't get how the front office is dysfunctional and has made a ton of stupid moves in the last decade I don't really know where to start.

Also dude, editing my quotes around from a post to remove the meaning is pretty crappy. It is one thing to misunderstand what someone was says, but intentionally manipulating their posts to make them say something else is kind of crappy, even for you.
i didn't edit your post.  I highlighted the only relevant bits. That you think butler can be a superstar and you think the Bulls might pick a coach over him.   Dysfunctional or not, that's a comical premise.

Butler likely isn't going to be a superstar.  If you believe the Bulls will trade him for picks, it must mean the Bulls don't think he will be a superstar either.

He's still a nice player who could help.  I'd be fine with adding him at the right price.

Just like if anyone believes the Kings will trade DMC for picks, it must mean Sacramento doesn't think he is good enough to build a team around.
cousins hasn't been traded for picks. There's been no sign they are open to trading him for picks.  There are no rumors that he will be traded for picks.  And it's believed that cousins has considerable baggage.  As far as I know, butler doesn't have any major baggage and isn't demanding a trade - so it would be interesting if the Bulls dumped him.  But of course, butler is merely a borderline star - it's totally plausible he'd he traded.  They will ask for a lot despite this.   I'm not sure the price will make sense for us.

Butler is a bordeline star?

Are you honestly serious?  You talk about Jahlil Okafor like he's the second coming of god, and you refer to Jimmy Butler as a 'borderline star'??? 

Come on man - I generally respect the comments you make, but this is simply insane. 

Butler is a 21 / 5 / 5 guy and an elite defender.  He his game has no real glaring weaknesses, and his personality is a coach's dream.  He is arguably the best shooting guard in the entire NBA, and at 26 years of age he still has potential to get better.

I must admit, I am completely bewildered as to how you could refer to Butler as a 'borderline star'.
When did I talk about Okafor as the second coming of God?  Lol.   If you hate Okafor, take that up with Danny ainge - who per several reports came close to landing Okafor at the deadline for a package built around the pick.  Presumably butler had cost and will cost significantly more than that.  It sounds like we made inquires and the price was too high.

And yeah, butler is a borderline star.  He's maybe a notch above Thomas.  Take those two guys and pair them with a big man DPOY candidate like Noah in his prime and you'll probably make the second round.

Here's the thing with butler -  at minimum he's costing you all our picks, right?  Do you think he'd also cost crowder or Bradley ?

Someone made the comment earlier that butler can become a superstar.  Eh. I doubt it.  Someone made the comment that if you add butler without impacting our core, the team would threaten for the finals.  I don't buy it, but let's talk about it.

Let's pretend that the Bulls are so convinced in Butler's inability to be a franchise player that they actually decide to trade butler for our picks.  Add butler to our starting lineup. Whose minutes is he taking?  Who gets the short straw on minutes now?  Does he start next to crowder and Thomas with Bradley on the bench taking smarts minutes ?   Is he starting over Crowder?   Are we just replacing turners minutes ?   Someone is getting minutes eaten.  It will be an upgrade for sure, but if we are talking about just swapping out crowder or Bradley for butler is it really going to be a big enough upgrade to take this mediocre team to a championship?  Nah.   So if we are paying big time prices to bring in butler we better be certain of our free agency potential.  We'd need to have follow up moves to make it worthwhile.  Crowder and Bradley are solid players as is.  According to several people here, Bradley is a top 2 defensive guard.  His scoring efficiency was actually better than butler this year.  Say Bradley is 70% the player butler is.  Say he's 60%... Whatever.  If Bradley needs to be included in the deal, don't you need to factor that into the equation ?  Would you give up all our picks just to upgrade Bradley and still fall short of having a franchise player ?   

Hence why I say I'm not comfortable going all-in for butler unless is guarantees us Durant.  Id prefer the alternative of using the pick to take another big time prospect, keeping Bradley and crowder, and hoping a better option presents itself.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 01:54:07 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston
« Reply #175 on: April 29, 2016, 01:50:47 PM »

Offline Moranis

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You can't claim Butler is a superstar above criticism while at the same time arguing his price should be cheap. 


WHO IS CLAIMING THAT?

Mike

To get back to seriousness. I do think Butler can be a superstar.

...

Maybe they really do pick Hoiberg over Butler...

Yeah it totally makes sense to choose a coach over a budding superstar.

You neatly edited out the rest of my post where I said it was possible because their front office is so incredibly dysfunctional. If you don't get how the front office is dysfunctional and has made a ton of stupid moves in the last decade I don't really know where to start.

Also dude, editing my quotes around from a post to remove the meaning is pretty crappy. It is one thing to misunderstand what someone was says, but intentionally manipulating their posts to make them say something else is kind of crappy, even for you.
i didn't edit your post.  I highlighted the only relevant bits. That you think butler can be a superstar and you think the Bulls might pick a coach over him.   Dysfunctional or not, that's a comical premise.

Butler likely isn't going to be a superstar.  If you believe the Bulls will trade him for picks, it must mean the Bulls don't think he will be a superstar either.

He's still a nice player who could help.  I'd be fine with adding him at the right price.

Just like if anyone believes the Kings will trade DMC for picks, it must mean Sacramento doesn't think he is good enough to build a team around.
cousins hasn't been traded for picks. There's been no sign they are open to trading him for picks.  There are no rumors that he will be traded for picks.  And it's believed that cousins has considerable baggage.  As far as I know, butler doesn't have any major baggage and isn't demanding a trade - so it would be interesting if the Bulls dumped him.  But of course, butler is merely a borderline star - it's totally plausible he'd he traded.  They will ask for a lot despite this.   I'm not sure the price will make sense for us.

Butler is a bordeline star?

Are you honestly serious?  You talk about Jahlil Okafor like he's the second coming of god, and you refer to Jimmy Butler as a 'borderline star'??? 

Come on man - I generally respect the comments you make, but this is simply insane. 

Butler is a 21 / 5 / 5 guy and an elite defender.  He his game has no real glaring weaknesses, and his personality is a coach's dream.  He is arguably the best shooting guard in the entire NBA, and at 26 years of age he still has potential to get better.

I must admit, I am completely bewildered as to how you could refer to Butler as a 'borderline star'.
When did I talk about Okafor as the second coming of God?  Lol.   If you hate Okafor, take that up with Danny ainge - who per several reports came close to landing Okafor at the deadline for a package built around the pick.  Presumably butler had cost and will cost significantly more than that.  It sounds like we made inquires and the price was too high.

And yeah, butler is a borderline star.  He's maybe a notch above Thomas.  Take those two guys and pair them with a big man DPOY candidate like Noah in his prime and you'll probably make the second round.

Here's the thing with butler -  at minimum he's costing you all our picks, right?  Do you think he'd also cost crowder or Bradley ?

Someone made the comment earlier that butler can become a superstar.  Eh. I doubt it.  Someone made the comment that if you add butler without impacting our core, the team would threaten for the finals.  I don't buy it, but let's talk about it.

Let's pretend that the Bulls are so convinced in Butler's inability to be a franchise player that they actually decide to trade butler for our picks.  Add butler to our starting lineup. Whose minutes is he taking?  Who gets the short straw on minutes now?  Does he start next to crowder and Thomas with Bradley on the bench taking smarts minutes ?   Is he starting over Crowder?   Are we just replacing turners minutes ?   Someone is getting minutes eaten.  It will be an upgrade for sure, but if we are talking about just swapping our crowder or Bradley for butler is it really going to be a big enough upgrade to take this mediocre team to a championship?  Nah.   So if we are paying big time prices to bring in butler we better be certain of our free agency potential.  We'd need to have follow up moves to make it worthwhile.   

Hence why I say I'm not comfortable going all-in for butler unless is guarantees us Durant.  Id prefer the alternative of using the pick to take another big time prospect, keeping Bradley and crowder, and hoping a better option presents itself.
This is a fairly reasonable position, unlike your nonsense from earlier comparing Butler to Ricky Davis.  That was total hogwash.
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Re: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston
« Reply #176 on: April 29, 2016, 02:03:37 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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You can't claim Butler is a superstar above criticism while at the same time arguing his price should be cheap. 


WHO IS CLAIMING THAT?

Mike

To get back to seriousness. I do think Butler can be a superstar.

...

Maybe they really do pick Hoiberg over Butler...

Yeah it totally makes sense to choose a coach over a budding superstar.

You neatly edited out the rest of my post where I said it was possible because their front office is so incredibly dysfunctional. If you don't get how the front office is dysfunctional and has made a ton of stupid moves in the last decade I don't really know where to start.

Also dude, editing my quotes around from a post to remove the meaning is pretty crappy. It is one thing to misunderstand what someone was says, but intentionally manipulating their posts to make them say something else is kind of crappy, even for you.
i didn't edit your post.  I highlighted the only relevant bits. That you think butler can be a superstar and you think the Bulls might pick a coach over him.   Dysfunctional or not, that's a comical premise.

Butler likely isn't going to be a superstar.  If you believe the Bulls will trade him for picks, it must mean the Bulls don't think he will be a superstar either.

He's still a nice player who could help.  I'd be fine with adding him at the right price.

Just like if anyone believes the Kings will trade DMC for picks, it must mean Sacramento doesn't think he is good enough to build a team around.
cousins hasn't been traded for picks. There's been no sign they are open to trading him for picks.  There are no rumors that he will be traded for picks.  And it's believed that cousins has considerable baggage.  As far as I know, butler doesn't have any major baggage and isn't demanding a trade - so it would be interesting if the Bulls dumped him.  But of course, butler is merely a borderline star - it's totally plausible he'd he traded.  They will ask for a lot despite this.   I'm not sure the price will make sense for us.

Butler is a bordeline star?

Are you honestly serious?  You talk about Jahlil Okafor like he's the second coming of god, and you refer to Jimmy Butler as a 'borderline star'??? 

Come on man - I generally respect the comments you make, but this is simply insane. 

Butler is a 21 / 5 / 5 guy and an elite defender.  He his game has no real glaring weaknesses, and his personality is a coach's dream.  He is arguably the best shooting guard in the entire NBA, and at 26 years of age he still has potential to get better.

I must admit, I am completely bewildered as to how you could refer to Butler as a 'borderline star'.
When did I talk about Okafor as the second coming of God?  Lol.   If you hate Okafor, take that up with Danny ainge - who per several reports came close to landing Okafor at the deadline for a package built around the pick.  Presumably butler had cost and will cost significantly more than that.  It sounds like we made inquires and the price was too high.

And yeah, butler is a borderline star.  He's maybe a notch above Thomas.  Take those two guys and pair them with a big man DPOY candidate like Noah in his prime and you'll probably make the second round.

Here's the thing with butler -  at minimum he's costing you all our picks, right?  Do you think he'd also cost crowder or Bradley ?

Someone made the comment earlier that butler can become a superstar.  Eh. I doubt it.  Someone made the comment that if you add butler without impacting our core, the team would threaten for the finals.  I don't buy it, but let's talk about it.

Let's pretend that the Bulls are so convinced in Butler's inability to be a franchise player that they actually decide to trade butler for our picks.  Add butler to our starting lineup. Whose minutes is he taking?  Who gets the short straw on minutes now?  Does he start next to crowder and Thomas with Bradley on the bench taking smarts minutes ?   Is he starting over Crowder?   Are we just replacing turners minutes ?   Someone is getting minutes eaten.  It will be an upgrade for sure, but if we are talking about just swapping our crowder or Bradley for butler is it really going to be a big enough upgrade to take this mediocre team to a championship?  Nah.   So if we are paying big time prices to bring in butler we better be certain of our free agency potential.  We'd need to have follow up moves to make it worthwhile.   

Hence why I say I'm not comfortable going all-in for butler unless is guarantees us Durant.  Id prefer the alternative of using the pick to take another big time prospect, keeping Bradley and crowder, and hoping a better option presents itself.
This is a fairly reasonable position, unlike your nonsense from earlier comparing Butler to Ricky Davis.  That was total hogwash.
That only upset people because butler is overrated and Davis was underrated.  It's the same reason people get all salty when Zach Lowe and Bill Simmons say Marcus smart might someday be as good as tony Allen... Or when someone in the media suggests Crowder is the modern James Posey. Nobody wants a ceiling placed on their future - especially by using underrated ghosts from their past.

And anyways, the fact that Davis has almost identical career stats to butler and had a similar statistical peak doesn't mean that butler can't continue to play at a high level.  We don't know how butler would play on a brad Stevens Celtic team.  We don't know how Ricky Davis would have played on a tom thib elite defensive team.  We don't know what butlers advanced stats would have looked like on a bottom feeder early 00s Celtics squad.  It doesn't matter.  Mostly, it's just funny how similar the stats are.  I think people reacted hostile to the comments because butler is a binkie.  I thought only Celtic players could be binkies around here but apparently butler is so desirable he gets the same defense mechanism.  So when someone points out butler has the same stats as Davis, it's the equivalent of your granny telling you you're starting to look so much like you dad as you get older - which really makes you angry, because you think your dad is a fat deadbeat and granny is losing her marbles.  But mostly it just upsets you because when you look in the mirror, you realize granny might be right.  In this example, I'm granny losing her marbles.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 02:16:15 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston
« Reply #177 on: April 29, 2016, 02:22:10 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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You can't claim Butler is a superstar above criticism while at the same time arguing his price should be cheap. 


WHO IS CLAIMING THAT?

Mike

To get back to seriousness. I do think Butler can be a superstar.

...

Maybe they really do pick Hoiberg over Butler...

Yeah it totally makes sense to choose a coach over a budding superstar.

You neatly edited out the rest of my post where I said it was possible because their front office is so incredibly dysfunctional. If you don't get how the front office is dysfunctional and has made a ton of stupid moves in the last decade I don't really know where to start.

Also dude, editing my quotes around from a post to remove the meaning is pretty crappy. It is one thing to misunderstand what someone was says, but intentionally manipulating their posts to make them say something else is kind of crappy, even for you.
i didn't edit your post.  I highlighted the only relevant bits. That you think butler can be a superstar and you think the Bulls might pick a coach over him.   Dysfunctional or not, that's a comical premise.

Butler likely isn't going to be a superstar.  If you believe the Bulls will trade him for picks, it must mean the Bulls don't think he will be a superstar either.

He's still a nice player who could help.  I'd be fine with adding him at the right price.

Just like if anyone believes the Kings will trade DMC for picks, it must mean Sacramento doesn't think he is good enough to build a team around.
cousins hasn't been traded for picks. There's been no sign they are open to trading him for picks.  There are no rumors that he will be traded for picks.  And it's believed that cousins has considerable baggage.  As far as I know, butler doesn't have any major baggage and isn't demanding a trade - so it would be interesting if the Bulls dumped him.  But of course, butler is merely a borderline star - it's totally plausible he'd he traded.  They will ask for a lot despite this.   I'm not sure the price will make sense for us.

Butler is a bordeline star?

Are you honestly serious?  You talk about Jahlil Okafor like he's the second coming of god, and you refer to Jimmy Butler as a 'borderline star'??? 

Come on man - I generally respect the comments you make, but this is simply insane. 

Butler is a 21 / 5 / 5 guy and an elite defender.  He his game has no real glaring weaknesses, and his personality is a coach's dream.  He is arguably the best shooting guard in the entire NBA, and at 26 years of age he still has potential to get better.

I must admit, I am completely bewildered as to how you could refer to Butler as a 'borderline star'.
When did I talk about Okafor as the second coming of God?  Lol.   If you hate Okafor, take that up with Danny ainge - who per several reports came close to landing Okafor at the deadline for a package built around the pick.  Presumably butler had cost and will cost significantly more than that.  It sounds like we made inquires and the price was too high.

And yeah, butler is a borderline star.  He's maybe a notch above Thomas.  Take those two guys and pair them with a big man DPOY candidate like Noah in his prime and you'll probably make the second round.

Here's the thing with butler -  at minimum he's costing you all our picks, right?  Do you think he'd also cost crowder or Bradley ?

Someone made the comment earlier that butler can become a superstar.  Eh. I doubt it.  Someone made the comment that if you add butler without impacting our core, the team would threaten for the finals.  I don't buy it, but let's talk about it.

Let's pretend that the Bulls are so convinced in Butler's inability to be a franchise player that they actually decide to trade butler for our picks.  Add butler to our starting lineup. Whose minutes is he taking?  Who gets the short straw on minutes now?  Does he start next to crowder and Thomas with Bradley on the bench taking smarts minutes ?   Is he starting over Crowder?   Are we just replacing turners minutes ?   Someone is getting minutes eaten.  It will be an upgrade for sure, but if we are talking about just swapping our crowder or Bradley for butler is it really going to be a big enough upgrade to take this mediocre team to a championship?  Nah.   So if we are paying big time prices to bring in butler we better be certain of our free agency potential.  We'd need to have follow up moves to make it worthwhile.   

Hence why I say I'm not comfortable going all-in for butler unless is guarantees us Durant.  Id prefer the alternative of using the pick to take another big time prospect, keeping Bradley and crowder, and hoping a better option presents itself.
This is a fairly reasonable position, unlike your nonsense from earlier comparing Butler to Ricky Davis.  That was total hogwash.
That only upset people because butler is overrated and Davis was underrated.  It's the same reason people get all salty when Zach Lowe and Bill Simmons say Marcus smart might someday be as good as tony Allen... Or when someone in the media suggests Crowder is the modern James Posey. Nobody wants a ceiling placed on their future - especially by using underrated ghosts from their past.

And anyways, the fact that Davis has almost identical career stats to butler and had a similar statistical peak doesn't mean that butler can't continue to play at a high level.  We don't know how butler would play on a brad Stevens Celtic team.  We don't know how Ricky Davis would have played on a tom thib elite defensive team.  We don't know what butlers advanced stats would have looked like on a bottom feeder early 00s Celtics squad.  It doesn't matter.  Mostly, it's just funny how similar the stats are.  I think people reacted hostile to the comments because butler is a binkie.  I thought only Celtic players could be binkies around here but apparently butler is so desirable he gets the same defense mechanism.  So when someone points out butler has the same stats as Davis, it's the equivalent of your granny telling you you're starting to look so much like you dad as you get older - which really makes you angry, because you think your dad is a fat deadbeat and granny is losing her marbles.  But mostly it just upsets you because when you look in the mirror, you realize granny might be right.  In this example, I'm granny losing her marbles.

You are just filling this thread with non-stop garbage.Please stop. Rickey Davis was not a good NBA basketball player. Butler is and is only getting better.

Re: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston
« Reply #178 on: April 29, 2016, 03:47:17 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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You can't claim Butler is a superstar above criticism while at the same time arguing his price should be cheap. 


WHO IS CLAIMING THAT?

Mike

To get back to seriousness. I do think Butler can be a superstar.

...

Maybe they really do pick Hoiberg over Butler...

Yeah it totally makes sense to choose a coach over a budding superstar.

You neatly edited out the rest of my post where I said it was possible because their front office is so incredibly dysfunctional. If you don't get how the front office is dysfunctional and has made a ton of stupid moves in the last decade I don't really know where to start.

Also dude, editing my quotes around from a post to remove the meaning is pretty crappy. It is one thing to misunderstand what someone was says, but intentionally manipulating their posts to make them say something else is kind of crappy, even for you.
i didn't edit your post.  I highlighted the only relevant bits. That you think butler can be a superstar and you think the Bulls might pick a coach over him.   Dysfunctional or not, that's a comical premise.

Butler likely isn't going to be a superstar.  If you believe the Bulls will trade him for picks, it must mean the Bulls don't think he will be a superstar either.

He's still a nice player who could help.  I'd be fine with adding him at the right price.

Just like if anyone believes the Kings will trade DMC for picks, it must mean Sacramento doesn't think he is good enough to build a team around.
cousins hasn't been traded for picks. There's been no sign they are open to trading him for picks.  There are no rumors that he will be traded for picks.  And it's believed that cousins has considerable baggage.  As far as I know, butler doesn't have any major baggage and isn't demanding a trade - so it would be interesting if the Bulls dumped him.  But of course, butler is merely a borderline star - it's totally plausible he'd he traded.  They will ask for a lot despite this.   I'm not sure the price will make sense for us.

Butler is a bordeline star?

Are you honestly serious?  You talk about Jahlil Okafor like he's the second coming of god, and you refer to Jimmy Butler as a 'borderline star'??? 

Come on man - I generally respect the comments you make, but this is simply insane. 

Butler is a 21 / 5 / 5 guy and an elite defender.  He his game has no real glaring weaknesses, and his personality is a coach's dream.  He is arguably the best shooting guard in the entire NBA, and at 26 years of age he still has potential to get better.

I must admit, I am completely bewildered as to how you could refer to Butler as a 'borderline star'.
When did I talk about Okafor as the second coming of God?  Lol.   If you hate Okafor, take that up with Danny ainge - who per several reports came close to landing Okafor at the deadline for a package built around the pick.  Presumably butler had cost and will cost significantly more than that.  It sounds like we made inquires and the price was too high.

And yeah, butler is a borderline star.  He's maybe a notch above Thomas.  Take those two guys and pair them with a big man DPOY candidate like Noah in his prime and you'll probably make the second round.

Here's the thing with butler -  at minimum he's costing you all our picks, right?  Do you think he'd also cost crowder or Bradley ?

Someone made the comment earlier that butler can become a superstar.  Eh. I doubt it.  Someone made the comment that if you add butler without impacting our core, the team would threaten for the finals.  I don't buy it, but let's talk about it.

Let's pretend that the Bulls are so convinced in Butler's inability to be a franchise player that they actually decide to trade butler for our picks.  Add butler to our starting lineup. Whose minutes is he taking?  Who gets the short straw on minutes now?  Does he start next to crowder and Thomas with Bradley on the bench taking smarts minutes ?   Is he starting over Crowder?   Are we just replacing turners minutes ?   Someone is getting minutes eaten.  It will be an upgrade for sure, but if we are talking about just swapping our crowder or Bradley for butler is it really going to be a big enough upgrade to take this mediocre team to a championship?  Nah.   So if we are paying big time prices to bring in butler we better be certain of our free agency potential.  We'd need to have follow up moves to make it worthwhile.   

Hence why I say I'm not comfortable going all-in for butler unless is guarantees us Durant.  Id prefer the alternative of using the pick to take another big time prospect, keeping Bradley and crowder, and hoping a better option presents itself.
This is a fairly reasonable position, unlike your nonsense from earlier comparing Butler to Ricky Davis.  That was total hogwash.
That only upset people because butler is overrated and Davis was underrated.  It's the same reason people get all salty when Zach Lowe and Bill Simmons say Marcus smart might someday be as good as tony Allen... Or when someone in the media suggests Crowder is the modern James Posey. Nobody wants a ceiling placed on their future - especially by using underrated ghosts from their past.

And anyways, the fact that Davis has almost identical career stats to butler and had a similar statistical peak doesn't mean that butler can't continue to play at a high level.  We don't know how butler would play on a brad Stevens Celtic team.  We don't know how Ricky Davis would have played on a tom thib elite defensive team.  We don't know what butlers advanced stats would have looked like on a bottom feeder early 00s Celtics squad.  It doesn't matter.  Mostly, it's just funny how similar the stats are.  I think people reacted hostile to the comments because butler is a binkie.  I thought only Celtic players could be binkies around here but apparently butler is so desirable he gets the same defense mechanism.  So when someone points out butler has the same stats as Davis, it's the equivalent of your granny telling you you're starting to look so much like you dad as you get older - which really makes you angry, because you think your dad is a fat deadbeat and granny is losing her marbles.  But mostly it just upsets you because when you look in the mirror, you realize granny might be right.  In this example, I'm granny losing her marbles.

You are just filling this thread with non-stop garbage.Please stop. Rickey Davis was not a good NBA basketball player. Butler is and is only getting better.
If Butler was only getting better, the Bulls wouldn't trade him.   There's a reason why the fans and team have been turning on him.   Like I said, some Bulls fans have said his defense has slipped since he took more of an offensive role**.  And this year his field goal percentages dropped across the board.  He shot 31% from three this year.   It's kind of the opposite of "getting better".

I also don't think it's any coincidence that the team's defensive slippage coincided with Joakim Noah's regression.   I also don't think it's a coincidence that Jimmy Butler went from shooting 39% and 28% from three to 46%/38% with the arrival of Pau Gasol... and then dropped this year to 45%/31% with the regression of his supporting cast.

I know people here want him with hopes of him taking us to the next level.  Just don't be shocked if he's more Rudy Gay than Kevin Durant.   And I'm also not backing down from my original comment in this thread.   I'm fine with adding him, but I'm not overpaying for him unless it guarantees us a superstar free agent signing.   Butler is overrated right now.

I will admit that Butler looked really good in 2014-15 playing with a rejuvenated Pau Gasol who played 78 games and averaged 18.5 points, 11.8 rebounds, 2.7 assists, 1.9 blocks with 49%/46%/80% shooting.   If Boston goes out and gets a 20/10 big man, maybe Butler will flourish here as well. That's assuming we don't lose too much in the process of acquiring Butler and actually have assets left over to add a 20/10 star like 2014-15 Pau Gasol.

** - Side note:  The funniest chain in this thread was nickagneta suggesting I only listen to Bulls fans, telling me that taking the word of Bulls fans is as worthless as me listening to the opinions of Celtic fans here, and then folks here reacting to nickagneta's comments like he just took me to school and dropped a bombshell on me.   It's hilarious for a number of reasons.   #1 - Just two days ago there was a 3 page discussion about ranking the best defenders in the league.  The consensus opinion was that our best measure of defensive excellence is the "eye test".  So if we aren't paying attention to the hoard of Bulls fans who watched Butler daily, who the hell are we supposed to listen to?  Does nobody see the obscene hypocrisy in fans here claiming Bradley and Smart are top 2 defenders at their position based on the "eye test", while at the same time scoffing that Bulls fans don't know what they are talking about when they say Butler's defense has slipped?   #2 - It was funny, because if anyone should have felt insulted by nickagneta's post, it should be the Celtic fans who he seemed to suggest have worthless opinions that I shouldn't pay attention to (in other words - everyone here).   He even name-dropped on my grand rivals who I had a 2 year debate with about Rondo that I came out on top about.   Regardless, I lump myself in with the rest of you.  None of us know what we're talking about.  Like nickagneta says, pur opinions are worthless.  Take them all with a grain of salt.  Nobody should take me too seriously when I suggest Jimmy Butler is the Kraft-brand mac and cheese to Ricky Davis' Kroger-brand. 
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 04:13:21 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: Tim Bontemps predicts Jimmy Butler will be traded to Boston
« Reply #179 on: April 29, 2016, 04:13:02 PM »

Offline Moranis

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You can't claim Butler is a superstar above criticism while at the same time arguing his price should be cheap. 


WHO IS CLAIMING THAT?

Mike

To get back to seriousness. I do think Butler can be a superstar.

...

Maybe they really do pick Hoiberg over Butler...

Yeah it totally makes sense to choose a coach over a budding superstar.

You neatly edited out the rest of my post where I said it was possible because their front office is so incredibly dysfunctional. If you don't get how the front office is dysfunctional and has made a ton of stupid moves in the last decade I don't really know where to start.

Also dude, editing my quotes around from a post to remove the meaning is pretty crappy. It is one thing to misunderstand what someone was says, but intentionally manipulating their posts to make them say something else is kind of crappy, even for you.
i didn't edit your post.  I highlighted the only relevant bits. That you think butler can be a superstar and you think the Bulls might pick a coach over him.   Dysfunctional or not, that's a comical premise.

Butler likely isn't going to be a superstar.  If you believe the Bulls will trade him for picks, it must mean the Bulls don't think he will be a superstar either.

He's still a nice player who could help.  I'd be fine with adding him at the right price.

Just like if anyone believes the Kings will trade DMC for picks, it must mean Sacramento doesn't think he is good enough to build a team around.
cousins hasn't been traded for picks. There's been no sign they are open to trading him for picks.  There are no rumors that he will be traded for picks.  And it's believed that cousins has considerable baggage.  As far as I know, butler doesn't have any major baggage and isn't demanding a trade - so it would be interesting if the Bulls dumped him.  But of course, butler is merely a borderline star - it's totally plausible he'd he traded.  They will ask for a lot despite this.   I'm not sure the price will make sense for us.

Butler is a bordeline star?

Are you honestly serious?  You talk about Jahlil Okafor like he's the second coming of god, and you refer to Jimmy Butler as a 'borderline star'??? 

Come on man - I generally respect the comments you make, but this is simply insane. 

Butler is a 21 / 5 / 5 guy and an elite defender.  He his game has no real glaring weaknesses, and his personality is a coach's dream.  He is arguably the best shooting guard in the entire NBA, and at 26 years of age he still has potential to get better.

I must admit, I am completely bewildered as to how you could refer to Butler as a 'borderline star'.
When did I talk about Okafor as the second coming of God?  Lol.   If you hate Okafor, take that up with Danny ainge - who per several reports came close to landing Okafor at the deadline for a package built around the pick.  Presumably butler had cost and will cost significantly more than that.  It sounds like we made inquires and the price was too high.

And yeah, butler is a borderline star.  He's maybe a notch above Thomas.  Take those two guys and pair them with a big man DPOY candidate like Noah in his prime and you'll probably make the second round.

Here's the thing with butler -  at minimum he's costing you all our picks, right?  Do you think he'd also cost crowder or Bradley ?

Someone made the comment earlier that butler can become a superstar.  Eh. I doubt it.  Someone made the comment that if you add butler without impacting our core, the team would threaten for the finals.  I don't buy it, but let's talk about it.

Let's pretend that the Bulls are so convinced in Butler's inability to be a franchise player that they actually decide to trade butler for our picks.  Add butler to our starting lineup. Whose minutes is he taking?  Who gets the short straw on minutes now?  Does he start next to crowder and Thomas with Bradley on the bench taking smarts minutes ?   Is he starting over Crowder?   Are we just replacing turners minutes ?   Someone is getting minutes eaten.  It will be an upgrade for sure, but if we are talking about just swapping our crowder or Bradley for butler is it really going to be a big enough upgrade to take this mediocre team to a championship?  Nah.   So if we are paying big time prices to bring in butler we better be certain of our free agency potential.  We'd need to have follow up moves to make it worthwhile.   

Hence why I say I'm not comfortable going all-in for butler unless is guarantees us Durant.  Id prefer the alternative of using the pick to take another big time prospect, keeping Bradley and crowder, and hoping a better option presents itself.
This is a fairly reasonable position, unlike your nonsense from earlier comparing Butler to Ricky Davis.  That was total hogwash.
That only upset people because butler is overrated and Davis was underrated.  It's the same reason people get all salty when Zach Lowe and Bill Simmons say Marcus smart might someday be as good as tony Allen... Or when someone in the media suggests Crowder is the modern James Posey. Nobody wants a ceiling placed on their future - especially by using underrated ghosts from their past.

And anyways, the fact that Davis has almost identical career stats to butler and had a similar statistical peak doesn't mean that butler can't continue to play at a high level.  We don't know how butler would play on a brad Stevens Celtic team.  We don't know how Ricky Davis would have played on a tom thib elite defensive team.  We don't know what butlers advanced stats would have looked like on a bottom feeder early 00s Celtics squad.  It doesn't matter.  Mostly, it's just funny how similar the stats are.  I think people reacted hostile to the comments because butler is a binkie.  I thought only Celtic players could be binkies around here but apparently butler is so desirable he gets the same defense mechanism.  So when someone points out butler has the same stats as Davis, it's the equivalent of your granny telling you you're starting to look so much like you dad as you get older - which really makes you angry, because you think your dad is a fat deadbeat and granny is losing her marbles.  But mostly it just upsets you because when you look in the mirror, you realize granny might be right.  In this example, I'm granny losing her marbles.
No people called you out for it, because Ricky Davis was not nearly as good as Jimmy Butler was.  It was a garbage comparison.  And the stats are skewed because Butler was slow to develop.  Davis averaged 20 ppg one time (the seasons on either side of that 20 were under 12 and under 14.5 ppg) and his eFG% in that one season was 43.5%.  Butler has gone back to back seasons at 20 or more ppg and his eFG% was respectively 50.2% and 48.5%.  Butler has shown a consistent trend of improvement.  Butler is a significantly better defender than Davis ever was.  This is borne out statistically, via honors, and via anyone that watches either of them play basketball. (For example, Davis career best PER was 16.1, Butler's last two seasons are each 21.3 - Davis ORTG 102, DRTG 109 - Butler ORTG 116, DRTG 104 - VORP Davis 6.5, Butler 13 - BPM Davis -0.8, Butler 3.1 - and on and on and on). 

It was and always will be a stupid comparison and it is why you lost people from your underlying argument that you don't want to overpay for Butler because he isn't a franchise player (I firmly agree with that part - Butler is not a franchise player).  That is a fair conclusion to make, but basing it off of a nonsense comparison is hogwash and is quite frankly stupid. 
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