Trading for Jahlil Okafor

[max215]

What I don't understand is why people look at what he did in Philly and assume it has anything to do with what he'd look like on a decent well-coached team.

I have always thought this was a big part of the problem with him.   But this in no means, he will want to play here either.

Okafor is a career winner.  Playing in Philly must have been torture for him.  I'm sure he'd love to play on a team that actually is trying to win.

But he has money!

"WE GOT MONEY!"

Jahlil is quite the wordsmith.

[The Rondo Show]

Myth: Jahlil Okafor is putting up empty numbers with more opportunity than other rookies.

There are 12 players since 2000 to average 17 pts or more in rookie year:

- Blake Griffin (22.5 pts, 50.6% FG, 27.3% Usg)
- Carmelo Anthony (21 pts, 42.6% FG, 28.5% Usg)
- Lebron James (20.9 pts, 41.7% FG, 28.2% Usg)
- Kevin Durant (20.3 pts, 43.0% FG, 28.1% Usg)
- Tyreke Evans (20.1 pts, 45.8% FG, 26.2% Usg)
- Damian Lillard (19.0 pts, 42.9% FG, 24.2% Usg)
- Kyrie Irving (18.5 pts, 46.9% FG, 28.7% Usg)
- OJ Mayo (18.5 pts, 43.8% FG, 28.7% Usg)
- Karl-Anthony Towns (18.3 pts, 54.3% FG, 24.8% Usg)
- Pau Gasol (17.6 pts, 51.8% FG, 22.6% Usg)
- Jahlil Okafor (17.5, 50.8% FG, 27.3% Usg)
- Stephen Curry (17.5 pts, 46.2% FG, 21.8% Usg)

Notes:

- It's reasonable to assume his PPG would increase without the injury. He improved as the season went along, averaging 20.4 on 63.4% after the all star break.

- His efficiency sky-rocketed after the Sixers acquired Ish Smith (X-mas) – a competent PG. His FG% following the trade jumped to 58% for the rest of the season.

Jah's ranks on this list:

PPG: 11 (see notes above)
RPG: 4
APG: 12
FG%: 3
USG: 5
TPG: 11
MPG: 12

Myth conclusion: Yes, Jah benefitted from a high usage percentage. However, his efficiency was still remarkable, ranking third on the list in FG% and second in least turnovers. It's especially impressive when you factor in his supporting cast of offensively challenged players and frequent double-teams from opposing defenses.

It's also interesting to ponder where he'd rank on this list with more minutes, as he played the least of any of these rookies.

I think we're looking at a legitimate offensive prodigy here. The need to double-team him will do wonders to open up space for guys like Kelly, Crowder, Smart and Bradley. It's popular to cite outside shooting when evaluating spacing, but inside scoring – which the Celtics really lack outside of IT's penetration – is just as essential.

Everybody knows the defense needs work, but imagine him with the Celtics' defensive supporting cast. I've said this multiple times, but if there's any team who can hide him, it's Boston.

I really hope we do some serious negotiations with new Philly GM Brian Colangelo.

[dannyboy35]

I'd be curious what the offer would be. Smart, our pick if 3-6 and Crowder? Something like that? Steep but we have to have the best offer.

[The Rondo Show]

I'd be curious what the offer would be. Smart, our pick if 3-6 and Crowder? Something like that? Steep but we have to have the best offer.

I think they'd give him up for less, but I wouldn't be opposed.

They don't have a ton of leverage with four bigs (Jah, Noel, Embiid, Saric). One of Noel/Okafor has to go.

[alldaboston]

Myth: Jahlil Okafor is putting up empty numbers with more opportunity than other rookies.

There are 12 players since 2000 to average 17 pts or more in rookie year:

- Blake Griffin (22.5 pts, 50.6% FG, 27.3% Usg)
- Carmelo Anthony (21 pts, 42.6% FG, 28.5% Usg)
- Lebron James (20.9 pts, 41.7% FG, 28.2% Usg)
- Kevin Durant (20.3 pts, 43.0% FG, 28.1% Usg)
- Tyreke Evans (20.1 pts, 45.8% FG, 26.2% Usg)
- Damian Lillard (19.0 pts, 42.9% FG, 24.2% Usg)
- Kyrie Irving (18.5 pts, 46.9% FG, 28.7% Usg)
- OJ Mayo (18.5 pts, 43.8% FG, 28.7% Usg)
- Karl-Anthony Towns (18.3 pts, 54.3% FG, 24.8% Usg)
- Pau Gasol (17.6 pts, 51.8% FG, 22.6% Usg)
- Jahlil Okafor (17.5, 50.8% FG, 27.3% Usg)
- Stephen Curry (17.5 pts, 46.2% FG, 21.8% Usg)

Notes:

- It's reasonable to assume his PPG would increase without the injury. He improved as the season went along, averaging 20.4 on 63.4% after the all star break.

- His efficiency sky-rocketed after the Sixers acquired Ish Smith (X-mas) – a competent PG. His FG% following the trade jumped to 58% for the rest of the season.

Jah's ranks on this list:

PPG: 11 (see notes above)
RPG: 4
APG: 12
FG%: 3
USG: 5
TPG: 11
MPG: 12

Myth conclusion: Yes, Jah benefitted from a high usage percentage. However, his efficiency was still remarkable, ranking third on the list in FG% and second in least turnovers. It's especially impressive when you factor in his supporting cast of offensively challenged players and frequent double-teams from opposing defenses.

It's also interesting to ponder where he'd rank on this list with more minutes, as he played the least of any of these rookies.

I think we're looking at a legitimate offensive prodigy here. The need to double-team him will do wonders to open up space for guys like Kelly, Crowder, Smart and Bradley. It's popular to cite outside shooting when evaluating spacing, but inside scoring – which the Celtics really lack outside of IT's penetration – is just as essential.

Everybody knows the defense needs work, but imagine him with the Celtics' defensive supporting cast. I've said this multiple times, but if there's any team who can hide him, it's Boston.

I really hope we do some serious negotiations with new Philly GM Brian Colangelo.

Very nice post. TP. Certainly changed my outlook a bit. I've been on the fence about acquiring a big who can't really shoot, but it's also possible that it'd be better, as you said bc of passing out of double teams.

Question: how good is his passing out of double teams? I saw he's last on assists out of those 12. Obviously a good reason is because of the position he plays, but is he known as a passing big? Or is he a whiteside in the sense that he never passes?

[The Rondo Show]

Myth: Jahlil Okafor is putting up empty numbers with more opportunity than other rookies.

There are 12 players since 2000 to average 17 pts or more in rookie year:

- Blake Griffin (22.5 pts, 50.6% FG, 27.3% Usg)
- Carmelo Anthony (21 pts, 42.6% FG, 28.5% Usg)
- Lebron James (20.9 pts, 41.7% FG, 28.2% Usg)
- Kevin Durant (20.3 pts, 43.0% FG, 28.1% Usg)
- Tyreke Evans (20.1 pts, 45.8% FG, 26.2% Usg)
- Damian Lillard (19.0 pts, 42.9% FG, 24.2% Usg)
- Kyrie Irving (18.5 pts, 46.9% FG, 28.7% Usg)
- OJ Mayo (18.5 pts, 43.8% FG, 28.7% Usg)
- Karl-Anthony Towns (18.3 pts, 54.3% FG, 24.8% Usg)
- Pau Gasol (17.6 pts, 51.8% FG, 22.6% Usg)
- Jahlil Okafor (17.5, 50.8% FG, 27.3% Usg)
- Stephen Curry (17.5 pts, 46.2% FG, 21.8% Usg)

Notes:

- It's reasonable to assume his PPG would increase without the injury. He improved as the season went along, averaging 20.4 on 63.4% after the all star break.

- His efficiency sky-rocketed after the Sixers acquired Ish Smith (X-mas) – a competent PG. His FG% following the trade jumped to 58% for the rest of the season.

Jah's ranks on this list:

PPG: 11 (see notes above)
RPG: 4
APG: 12
FG%: 3
USG: 5
TPG: 11
MPG: 12

Myth conclusion: Yes, Jah benefitted from a high usage percentage. However, his efficiency was still remarkable, ranking third on the list in FG% and second in least turnovers. It's especially impressive when you factor in his supporting cast of offensively challenged players and frequent double-teams from opposing defenses.

It's also interesting to ponder where he'd rank on this list with more minutes, as he played the least of any of these rookies.

I think we're looking at a legitimate offensive prodigy here. The need to double-team him will do wonders to open up space for guys like Kelly, Crowder, Smart and Bradley. It's popular to cite outside shooting when evaluating spacing, but inside scoring – which the Celtics really lack outside of IT's penetration – is just as essential.

Everybody knows the defense needs work, but imagine him with the Celtics' defensive supporting cast. I've said this multiple times, but if there's any team who can hide him, it's Boston.

I really hope we do some serious negotiations with new Philly GM Brian Colangelo.

Very nice post. TP. Certainly changed my outlook a bit. I've been on the fence about acquiring a big who can't really shoot, but it's also possible that it'd be better, as you said bc of passing out of double teams.

Question: how good is his passing out of double teams? I saw he's last on assists out of those 12. Obviously a good reason is because of the position he plays, but is he known as a passing big? Or is he a whiteside in the sense that he never passes?

Appreciate it.

He was a bit of a ball-stopper in Philly. However, he was an excellent passer at Duke on his way to a national title. His ability to move the ball with two defenders guarding him was crucial for guys like Tyus Jones, Matt Jones and Justise Winslow.

He certainly has great passing instincts in his arsenal. I think it came down to a lack of shooters in Philly – he was often on the floor with guys like Ish Smith, TJ McConnell, Jerami Grant, Rob Covington, Nerlens Noel, Nik Stauskas, etc. A pretty brutal supporting cast, especially in terms of floor spacing.

[jambr380]

I'd be curious what the offer would be. Smart, our pick if 3-6 and Crowder? Something like that? Steep but we have to have the best offer.

I think they'd give him up for less, but I wouldn't be opposed.

They don't have a ton of leverage with four bigs (Jah, Noel, Embiid, Saric). One of Noel/Okafor has to go.

So we've gone for a 3 pick and change to adding Crowder, Smart, and our pick to it. Way way too much for many people around here.

[Granath]

I'd be curious what the offer would be. Smart, our pick if 3-6 and Crowder? Something like that? Steep but we have to have the best offer.

I think they'd give him up for less, but I wouldn't be opposed.

They don't have a ton of leverage with four bigs (Jah, Noel, Embiid, Saric). One of Noel/Okafor has to go.

So we've gone for a 3 pick and change to adding Crowder, Smart, and our pick to it. Way way too much for many people around here.

Way too much for anyone who is still sane.

[SHAQATTACK]

I d trade Rondo if we still had him...

[The Rondo Show]

I'd be curious what the offer would be. Smart, our pick if 3-6 and Crowder? Something like that? Steep but we have to have the best offer.

I think they'd give him up for less, but I wouldn't be opposed.

They don't have a ton of leverage with four bigs (Jah, Noel, Embiid, Saric). One of Noel/Okafor has to go.

So we've gone for a 3 pick and change to adding Crowder, Smart, and our pick to it. Way way too much for many people around here.

Many people around here value those guys more than their market value.

[The Rondo Show]

I'd be curious what the offer would be. Smart, our pick if 3-6 and Crowder? Something like that? Steep but we have to have the best offer.

I think they'd give him up for less, but I wouldn't be opposed.

They don't have a ton of leverage with four bigs (Jah, Noel, Embiid, Saric). One of Noel/Okafor has to go.

So we've gone for a 3 pick and change to adding Crowder, Smart, and our pick to it. Way way too much for many people around here.

Way too much for anyone who is still sane.

You might not be an Okafor fan, but I think you should reconsider what Smart, Crowder and a No. 5 pick in a weak draft are worth.

As I said, I think Okafor would be cheaper, but I think he's a future perennial All Star; that's chump change if he pans out.

[Granath]

I'd be curious what the offer would be. Smart, our pick if 3-6 and Crowder? Something like that? Steep but we have to have the best offer.

I think they'd give him up for less, but I wouldn't be opposed.

They don't have a ton of leverage with four bigs (Jah, Noel, Embiid, Saric). One of Noel/Okafor has to go.

So we've gone for a 3 pick and change to adding Crowder, Smart, and our pick to it. Way way too much for many people around here.

Way too much for anyone who is still sane.

You might not be an Okafor fan, but I think you should reconsider what Smart, Crowder and a No. 5 pick in a weak draft are worth.

"You might not be an Okafor fan, but I think you should reconsider what Smart, Crowder and a No. 5 pick in a weak draft are worth."

More than Okafor.

It has nothing to do with being an Okafor fan or not. Go back and search my posts - you'll find that I advocated a trade for him months ago. Search button is over there ------->

But you also have to understand relative value of players. #5 let's say is Buddy Hield. Does anyone doubt his ability to score on an NBA level? He may be limited but then again so is Okafor. Now I'd be the first to say that Okafor is better than Hield. He's a bigger man and he's already proven himself in the NBA. But in many ways they are similar players in that they are offensively oriented, limited to specific roles even within their offensive games and have massive holes in other areas (both are known for scoring first, rebounding second and little else on the offensive end of the court).

But now you want to add in one of the ten best non-rookie value contracts in the NBA in Crowder where there is no current replacement?  So this move makes you go out and grab one in FA. Someone who probably isn't as good as Crowder and who is probably going to be far, far more expensive. That's how you blow your salary cap. #5 and Crowder would be an overpay, albeit closer to real value. But this makes the team worse. There's no one to back fill Crowder. So even if you get more value from Okafor, you still hurt the hell out of your team. In fact, if you're going to have Okafor, you need a defensive, outside shooting, bigger 3 to help the spacing and to cover the deficiencies on the defensive end of the court. You NEED a guy like Crowder if you're going to acquire Okafor! 

Where you really get into the realm of the absurd is that a case can be easily made that Smart is - right now, today - a better player than Okafor.  Win shares, +/-, VORP all greatly favor Smart. If Marcus can't put the ball in the hoop he's still valuable on the court. If Okafor has a bad shooting night you might as well put him on the bus early. 22 year olds who can guard 4 positions on the court and can win without the ball in their hands are exceptionally rare treasures.

Thus a combo of Smart, Hield and Crowder for anyone who isn't a true blue superstar is a gross overpay. It makes no sense. You're giving far more than you're getting. There's no way a trade like that makes the Cs better next year or in the foreseeable future.

Moving Crowder, Smart and #5 for Okafor is the difference between playing fantasy basketball and the real NBA. You might get more fantasy points on your team by making that move but in the real world the only thing that kind of trade does is gets you fired.

[The Rondo Show]

But you also have to understand relative value of players. #5 let's say is Buddy Hield. Does anyone doubt his ability to score on an NBA level? He may be limited but then again so is Okafor. Now I'd be the first to say that Okafor is better than Hield. He's a bigger man and he's already proven himself in the NBA. But in many ways they are similar players

I think a lot of people doubt whether his game will translate – at least in terms of being a quality starter vs a role player. But that's besides the point.

Comparing Hield an Okafor in such simplistic terms is silly. One is 20 years old and the other will be 23 in his rookie season. One is putting up 17 points in his first NBA season, while the other is a fringe top-5 prospect in one of the worst draft classes in recent memory. One provides elite scoring potential at a position where scoring is rare, while the other brings a top-flight shooting stroke to a position where we already have a potential long-term starter.

I'm glad you acknowledge Okafor is better, but other than massive generalizations like "they're offensive first and don't play defense", there are very little similarities there.

But now you want to add in one of the ten best non-rookie value contracts in the NBA in Crowder where there is no current replacement?  So this move makes you go out and grab one in FA. Someone who probably isn't as good as Crowder and who is probably going to be far, far more expensive. That's how you blow your salary cap. #5 and Crowder would be an overpay, albeit closer to real value. But this makes the team worse. There's no one to back fill Crowder. So even if you get more value from Okafor, you still hurt the hell out of your team. In fact, if you're going to have Okafor, you need a defensive, outside shooting, bigger 3 to help the spacing and to cover the deficiencies on the defensive end of the court. You NEED a guy like Crowder if you're going to acquire Okafor! 

There's no doubt Crowder is on an unbelievable contract. Easily one of the best in the NBA, especially with his improvement on the offensive end this season.

But you don't build teams by assembling role players first. That's how you end up in perennial mediocrity. If you think Jahlil is a star, you don't say, "well we can't trade an excellent role player on a bargain deal." That's not how you build a championship contender.

Again, you might not think Okafor is a star. It's why I prefaced my previous answer with your personal view on the player. However, there are certainly a lot of people who think Okafor is that star. If Danny's one of them, then I'm more than willing to give up that package – even with Crowder's friendly deal.

Edit: It's also important to note that Okafor is on a rookie deal for the next three years and would locked up for the next seven if we choose to keep him.

Where you really get into the realm of the absurd is that a case can be easily made that Smart is - right now, today - a better player than Okafor.  Win shares, +/-, VORP all greatly favor Smart. If Marcus can't put the ball in the hoop he's still valuable on the court. If Okafor has a bad shooting night you might as well put him on the bus early. 22 year olds who can guard 4 positions on the court and can win without the ball in their hands are exceptionally rare treasures.

Come on now.

Marcus is one of my favorites. He's a winner. He's a guy you want on a championship team. I can certainly respect not wanting to include him the deal.

But if you're comparing the two players, I'm willing to bet that 99% of non-Celtic fans trade Marcus Smart for Jahlil Okafor. You're right that this is absurd.

I'll reiterate that it's a bigger package than we'd need for Philly to move Okafor in all likelihood. However, if Danny believes Okafor is a star, this is a no-brainer despite Crowder, Smart and the lotto pick's value. 
 

[GC003332]

If Ainge can get him for pennies on the dollar great, if not,  business as usual , the Celtics are in a great position to take another step back to legit contenders this off season.
They don't need to conduct business with the 76ers to make that happen.

[Csfan1984]

Could Murray be better than Okafor as NBA players? Murray put up some good numbers and a lot of scouts like Murray. I don't hear a lot of negatives like we heard with Okafor leading to draft. Could we be under selling what the 3rd-5th pick could net the team?