Author Topic: NBA Playoffs 2015-2016  (Read 172685 times)

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Re: NBA Playoffs 2015-2016
« Reply #285 on: May 03, 2016, 11:03:50 PM »

Online jpotter33

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L2M report came out. Six incorrect non-calls in favor of the Spurs, two in favor of the Thunder. On the controversial inbound play, the Thunder were fouled twice (Mills grabbed Adams, Kawhi grabbed Westbrook). Ginobili was ruled to have committed a violation by touching the line.

Spurs lost that game fair and square. They petition the result of that game, the NBA's returning those fouls they got away with.

The refs let the players determine the game and I'm entirely fine with that, as long as there were consistent non-calls both ways.


http://official.nba.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2016/05/L2M-OKC-SAS-5-2-16.pdf
Awesome. Thanks for sharing.

I guess the outraged posters last night have come to their senses that while the refs missed some fouls that the Spurs still had a fair or maybe an unfair, depending on how you want to view it, attempt to win the game.

Yes, given the new evidence that there were also non-calls in favor of the Spurs in addition to the non-calls favoring the Thunder, specifically the Ginobli violation of crossing the out-of-bounds plane that happened prior to the Waiters shove, there is nothing else to do as far as protesting or playing the game over again, because they missed calls that should've necessarily been called both ways, especially the Ginobli violation that was the first missed non-call and would've stopped all of the others had it been called. I have absolutely no problem with that and totally agree with it.

But I'm sorry, this is just not a justified case of "swallowing the whistle"/"letting them play" like you guys are making it out to be. There is absolutely no subjectivity or interpretive qualities to those violations. They should be called by every single ref in every single circumstance. Otherwise, you could make arguments that out of bounds violations and double-dribble violations are subjective in nature, but they're most definitely not. You're either in violation of double-dribbling the ball or being out of bounds or not. There's no interpretation to it. Thus, this wasn't them just swallowing the whistle and letting the game play - this was an empirically verified massive failure on the part of the refs to do their job. They just screwed up enough against both teams that there's really nothing you can do about it now.

And Smart457, I'm not looking to get in another long argument with you, mostly because it's been proven to be an exercise in futility, but you're still missing the entire point. The fact that the "Spurs still had an attempt to win the game" has nothing to do with anything right now. All the league memo did was show that the refs are highly incompetent, but they were highly incompetent both ways, meaning it didn't really favor one team over the other. However, if the Waiters violation was the only missed call in the last minute, they would've almost necessarily had to play the possession over again due to the objective nature of that violation, no matter if the Spurs had an attempt to win it or not.

Thus, while I agree that nothing else should be done because the refs were incompetent both ways, this is absolutely not a justified example, or really an example at all, of the refs swallowing their whistles or letting players play. This is an example of official fallibility and incompetence. The fact that NBA fans and the announcers for the game could clearly call that violation while it occurred right in front of an NBA ref with no call should tell you something about the state of NBA officiating.

Re: NBA Playoffs 2015-2016
« Reply #286 on: May 03, 2016, 11:09:54 PM »

Offline go11celtics

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Someone needs to explain to me how that is not a blatant travel on Wade? He went to the floor with the ball, then got up and started dribbling. Have I been wrong all these years? Nobody seems to be a raising an issue with it, but I felt that players always passed the ball when they went to the floor because you can't get up. If this is in fact a travel, could it be contested? Toronto should have had a chance with 5 seconds left to tie.

Re: NBA Playoffs 2015-2016
« Reply #287 on: May 03, 2016, 11:19:04 PM »

Offline saltlover

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Someone needs to explain to me how that is not a blatant travel on Wade? He went to the floor with the ball, then got up and started dribbling. Have I been wrong all these years? Nobody seems to be a raising an issue with it, but I felt that players always passed the ball when they went to the floor because you can't get up. If this is in fact a travel, could it be contested? Toronto should have had a chance with 5 seconds left to tie.

I didn't see the play, but it is not necessarily traveling.  It depends in part on whether he had possession before he fell or gained possession on the ground.

Re: NBA Playoffs 2015-2016
« Reply #288 on: May 03, 2016, 11:26:00 PM »

Offline go11celtics

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Someone needs to explain to me how that is not a blatant travel on Wade? He went to the floor with the ball, then got up and started dribbling. Have I been wrong all these years? Nobody seems to be a raising an issue with it, but I felt that players always passed the ball when they went to the floor because you can't get up. If this is in fact a travel, could it be contested? Toronto should have had a chance with 5 seconds left to tie.

I didn't see the play, but it is not necessarily traveling.  It depends in part on whether he had possession before he fell or gained possession on the ground.

He did gain possession on the ground. However I still feel that you can't stand up and start dribbling. Maybe the play just looked weird to me. I wish I could find a clip of the play.

Re: NBA Playoffs 2015-2016
« Reply #289 on: May 03, 2016, 11:32:18 PM »

Offline go11celtics

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Not sure how to embed the video, however it is the first video on this page. If saltlover or anyone else can explain why this is not a travel, I would love to know.

http://espn.go.com/nba/game?gameId=400875890

Re: NBA Playoffs 2015-2016
« Reply #290 on: May 03, 2016, 11:33:43 PM »

Offline saltlover

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Someone needs to explain to me how that is not a blatant travel on Wade? He went to the floor with the ball, then got up and started dribbling. Have I been wrong all these years? Nobody seems to be a raising an issue with it, but I felt that players always passed the ball when they went to the floor because you can't get up. If this is in fact a travel, could it be contested? Toronto should have had a chance with 5 seconds left to tie.

I didn't see the play, but it is not necessarily traveling.  It depends in part on whether he had possession before he fell or gained possession on the ground.

He did gain possession on the ground. However I still feel that you can't stand up and start dribbling. Maybe the play just looked weird to me. I wish I could find a clip of the play.

In the NBA, I believe you can, because you won't have declared a pivot foot until your start to get up.  So you can lift a foot to stand, and then that first foot becomes the pivot foot once it's placed back down.  Then you can stand with your second food.  Once you have possession, you can't rol, but you can take some limited movement to stand and start dribbling.  You shouldn't be able to shuffle your feet multiple times in the process, but the act of standing is allowable if you gained possession on the floor.

Re: NBA Playoffs 2015-2016
« Reply #291 on: May 03, 2016, 11:35:21 PM »

Offline saltlover

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Not sure how to embed the video, however it is the first video on this page. If saltlover or anyone else can explain why this is not a travel, I would love to know.

http://espn.go.com/nba/game?gameId=400875890

He didn't even fully stand.  He dove for the ball and passed from his knees once he gained possession.  Definitely not a travel.

Re: NBA Playoffs 2015-2016
« Reply #292 on: May 03, 2016, 11:43:00 PM »

Offline go11celtics

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Not sure how to embed the video, however it is the first video on this page. If saltlover or anyone else can explain why this is not a travel, I would love to know.

http://espn.go.com/nba/game?gameId=400875890

He didn't even fully stand.  He dove for the ball and passed from his knees once he gained possession.  Definitely not a travel.

He didn't pass from his knees, he started dribbling. I get that once on the floor you can start dribbling and then stand up, but I thought you had to dribble before standing. In my opinion he is almost upright before starting the dribbling process, which is why I believed it was a travel.

Re: NBA Playoffs 2015-2016
« Reply #293 on: May 03, 2016, 11:54:48 PM »

Offline saltlover

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Not sure how to embed the video, however it is the first video on this page. If saltlover or anyone else can explain why this is not a travel, I would love to know.

http://espn.go.com/nba/game?gameId=400875890

He didn't even fully stand.  He dove for the ball and passed from his knees once he gained possession.  Definitely not a travel.

He didn't pass from his knees, he started dribbling. I get that once on the floor you can start dribbling and then stand up, but I thought you had to dribble before standing. In my opinion he is almost upright before starting the dribbling process, which is why I believed it was a travel.

Are we looking at the same video?  I'm looking at one at the link entitled "Wade capitalizes on DeRozan's turnover."  I see Wade get the ball on the ground, he braces himself with one arm as he goes to a kneel.  He hasn't dribbled.  Then he passes it, gets up, and someone passes it back to him, and he dunks.  I don't see a dribble on the ground.

Re: NBA Playoffs 2015-2016
« Reply #294 on: May 03, 2016, 11:56:58 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Not sure how to embed the video, however it is the first video on this page. If saltlover or anyone else can explain why this is not a travel, I would love to know.

http://espn.go.com/nba/game?gameId=400875890

He didn't even fully stand.  He dove for the ball and passed from his knees once he gained possession.  Definitely not a travel.

He didn't pass from his knees, he started dribbling. I get that once on the floor you can start dribbling and then stand up, but I thought you had to dribble before standing. In my opinion he is almost upright before starting the dribbling process, which is why I believed it was a travel.

Are we looking at the same video?  I'm looking at one at the link entitled "Wade capitalizes on DeRozan's turnover."  I see Wade get the ball on the ground, he braces himself with one arm as he goes to a kneel.  He hasn't dribbled.  Then he passes it, gets up, and someone passes it back to him, and he dunks.  I don't see a dribble on the ground.

There was a Dragic play I believe late in regulation where he lost his dribble, dove on the ball, and seemed to get up and start dribbling again.  Maybe he's confusing the Wade play with that?


EDIT:  I think it's easy to missee Wade's pass to Deng and the quick pass back as if Wade had just been dribbling it.  Maybe it's that.

Re: NBA Playoffs 2015-2016
« Reply #295 on: May 04, 2016, 12:01:01 AM »

Offline go11celtics

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Not sure how to embed the video, however it is the first video on this page. If saltlover or anyone else can explain why this is not a travel, I would love to know.

http://espn.go.com/nba/game?gameId=400875890

He didn't even fully stand.  He dove for the ball and passed from his knees once he gained possession.  Definitely not a travel.

He didn't pass from his knees, he started dribbling. I get that once on the floor you can start dribbling and then stand up, but I thought you had to dribble before standing. In my opinion he is almost upright before starting the dribbling process, which is why I believed it was a travel.

Are we looking at the same video?  I'm looking at one at the link entitled "Wade capitalizes on DeRozan's turnover."  I see Wade get the ball on the ground, he braces himself with one arm as he goes to a kneel.  He hasn't dribbled.  Then he passes it, gets up, and someone passes it back to him, and he dunks.  I don't see a dribble on the ground.

There was a Dragic play I believe late in regulation where he lost his dribble, dove on the ball, and seemed to get up and start dribbling again.  Maybe he's confusing the Wade play with that?


EDIT:  I think it's easy to missee Wade's pass to Deng and the quick pass back as if Wade had just been dribbling it.  Maybe it's that.

Watch it one more time. He fakes the pass the Deng. The ball never leaves his hand. If it does that is the fastest pass I have ever seen lol.

Re: NBA Playoffs 2015-2016
« Reply #296 on: May 04, 2016, 12:01:06 AM »

Offline Smart457

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L2M report came out. Six incorrect non-calls in favor of the Spurs, two in favor of the Thunder. On the controversial inbound play, the Thunder were fouled twice (Mills grabbed Adams, Kawhi grabbed Westbrook). Ginobili was ruled to have committed a violation by touching the line.

Spurs lost that game fair and square. They petition the result of that game, the NBA's returning those fouls they got away with.

The refs let the players determine the game and I'm entirely fine with that, as long as there were consistent non-calls both ways.


http://official.nba.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2016/05/L2M-OKC-SAS-5-2-16.pdf
Awesome. Thanks for sharing.

I guess the outraged posters last night have come to their senses that while the refs missed some fouls that the Spurs still had a fair or maybe an unfair, depending on how you want to view it, attempt to win the game.

Yes, given the new evidence that there were also non-calls in favor of the Spurs in addition to the non-calls favoring the Thunder, specifically the Ginobli violation of crossing the out-of-bounds plane that happened prior to the Waiters shove, there is nothing else to do as far as protesting or playing the game over again, because they missed calls that should've necessarily been called both ways, especially the Ginobli violation that was the first missed non-call and would've stopped all of the others had it been called. I have absolutely no problem with that and totally agree with it.

But I'm sorry, this is just not a justified case of "swallowing the whistle"/"letting them play" like you guys are making it out to be. There is absolutely no subjectivity or interpretive qualities to those violations. They should be called by every single ref in every single circumstance. Otherwise, you could make arguments that out of bounds violations and double-dribble violations are subjective in nature, but they're most definitely not. You're either in violation of double-dribbling the ball or being out of bounds or not. There's no interpretation to it. Thus, this wasn't them just swallowing the whistle and letting the game play - this was an empirically verified massive failure on the part of the refs to do their job. They just screwed up enough against both teams that there's really nothing you can do about it now.

And Smart457, I'm not looking to get in another long argument with you, mostly because it's been proven to be an exercise in futility, but you're still missing the entire point. The fact that the "Spurs still had an attempt to win the game" has nothing to do with anything right now. All the league memo did was show that the refs are highly incompetent, but they were highly incompetent both ways, meaning it didn't really favor one team over the other. However, if the Waiters violation was the only missed call in the last minute, they would've almost necessarily had to play the possession over again due to the objective nature of that violation, no matter if the Spurs had an attempt to win it or not.

Thus, while I agree that nothing else should be done because the refs were incompetent both ways, this is absolutely not a justified example, or really an example at all, of the refs swallowing their whistles or letting players play. This is an example of official fallibility and incompetence. The fact that NBA fans and the announcers for the game could clearly call that violation while it occurred right in front of an NBA ref with no call should tell you something about the state of NBA officiating.
All the new evidence that you supposedly think was unearthed today was discussed yesterday. Ginobili was all over the inbounder and the grab was discussed last night also. 

Weber over reacted and so did a ton of posters last night. I called it when I said your tune would change after sleeping it off as you were pretty emotional and you did change your tune. Good for you.

Sometimes the BS that a philosopher tries to spin gets in the way of the actual substance. I mean other then learning to BS, what else can you do with your degree in philosophy? Besides trying to use it like a badge on a forum.

Anyways the same holds true today that it did yesterday. The Spurs were never at a disadvantage due to the no call. They actually benefitted. They just couldn't capitalize on it.

Re: NBA Playoffs 2015-2016
« Reply #297 on: May 04, 2016, 12:01:11 AM »

Offline saltlover

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Not sure how to embed the video, however it is the first video on this page. If saltlover or anyone else can explain why this is not a travel, I would love to know.

http://espn.go.com/nba/game?gameId=400875890

He didn't even fully stand.  He dove for the ball and passed from his knees once he gained possession.  Definitely not a travel.

He didn't pass from his knees, he started dribbling. I get that once on the floor you can start dribbling and then stand up, but I thought you had to dribble before standing. In my opinion he is almost upright before starting the dribbling process, which is why I believed it was a travel.

Are we looking at the same video?  I'm looking at one at the link entitled "Wade capitalizes on DeRozan's turnover."  I see Wade get the ball on the ground, he braces himself with one arm as he goes to a kneel.  He hasn't dribbled.  Then he passes it, gets up, and someone passes it back to him, and he dunks.  I don't see a dribble on the ground.

I see it now.  I'm looking at it on my phone, so it's hard to see.  Wade fake passes it and then starts dribbling.  It's pretty quick, but that looked legal to me, since he didn't set back down his pivot foot until after he started dribbling.  I hate him, but that was a really good play.

Re: NBA Playoffs 2015-2016
« Reply #298 on: May 04, 2016, 12:05:36 AM »

Offline go11celtics

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Not sure how to embed the video, however it is the first video on this page. If saltlover or anyone else can explain why this is not a travel, I would love to know.

http://espn.go.com/nba/game?gameId=400875890

He didn't even fully stand.  He dove for the ball and passed from his knees once he gained possession.  Definitely not a travel.

He didn't pass from his knees, he started dribbling. I get that once on the floor you can start dribbling and then stand up, but I thought you had to dribble before standing. In my opinion he is almost upright before starting the dribbling process, which is why I believed it was a travel.

Are we looking at the same video?  I'm looking at one at the link entitled "Wade capitalizes on DeRozan's turnover."  I see Wade get the ball on the ground, he braces himself with one arm as he goes to a kneel.  He hasn't dribbled.  Then he passes it, gets up, and someone passes it back to him, and he dunks.  I don't see a dribble on the ground.

I see it now.  I'm looking at it on my phone, so it's hard to see.  Wade fake passes it and then starts dribbling.  It's pretty quick, but that looked legal to me, since he didn't set back down his pivot foot until after he started dribbling.  I hate him, but that was a really good play.

I had to watch it quite a few times to be sure haha. So I guess what we can agree on is if he placed his second foot before dribbling it would have been a travel? I honestly don't know the full rule, but first reaction just felt like a travel.

Re: NBA Playoffs 2015-2016
« Reply #299 on: May 04, 2016, 12:08:12 AM »

Offline saltlover

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Not sure how to embed the video, however it is the first video on this page. If saltlover or anyone else can explain why this is not a travel, I would love to know.

http://espn.go.com/nba/game?gameId=400875890

He didn't even fully stand.  He dove for the ball and passed from his knees once he gained possession.  Definitely not a travel.

He didn't pass from his knees, he started dribbling. I get that once on the floor you can start dribbling and then stand up, but I thought you had to dribble before standing. In my opinion he is almost upright before starting the dribbling process, which is why I believed it was a travel.

Are we looking at the same video?  I'm looking at one at the link entitled "Wade capitalizes on DeRozan's turnover."  I see Wade get the ball on the ground, he braces himself with one arm as he goes to a kneel.  He hasn't dribbled.  Then he passes it, gets up, and someone passes it back to him, and he dunks.  I don't see a dribble on the ground.

I see it now.  I'm looking at it on my phone, so it's hard to see.  Wade fake passes it and then starts dribbling.  It's pretty quick, but that looked legal to me, since he didn't set back down his pivot foot until after he started dribbling.  I hate him, but that was a really good play.

I had to watch it quite a few times to be sure haha. So I guess what we can agree on is if he placed his second foot before dribbling it would have been a travel? I honestly don't know the full rule, but first reaction just felt like a travel.

Yeah, if he picked up that right foot it would have been a travel.  But he didn't, and made a really good play.