The Craziest, Impossible Offseason that could happen

[Dino Pitino]

2 Brooklyn picks plus any combination of Celtics besides Isaiah, Smart, Crowder. Butler is fantastic, but he's also not that much more effective than Crowder. Crowder is probably the 5th best SF in the league.

I like Crowder and all but hes not a top 5 SF

When paul George thought he was PF he was close.

KD-Lebron-Kawhi are in a different echelon altogether, but then its probably Melo, Hayward and Gallo.

GA i guess is a point gaurd now, so if you think George is a PF and GA is a pg then you could certainly argue that Crowder is right there with Melo Hayward and Gallo for that 5th spot.

Sure you can make that argument but i would counter that with Jimmy Butler, Klay Thompson, and Harden, who are all G/F. In that case he falls down the list

Butler, Thompson, and Harden are primarily shooting guards. Crowder is a better overall player than Carmelo, Hayward, and Gallinari. I am so, so, sooooo bored by fans who don't understand that basketball has baskets at both ends.

Ya and there plenty of people bored by fans who overate players because they are on the celts. How do you figure he's better. They are all far superior offense players. Crowder is the best defensive player of the bunch but it doesn't make up for how much better they are at offensive. Just because you are a "two way player'  doesn't necessarily mean your better then far superior offensive players.

You know what kind of fans are even more boring than fans who don't appreciate the two-way nature of the sport? Fans who fancy themselves as more "sane" because they reflexively underrate the home team's players, who confuse negativity with objectivity. Yawn. If we were Knicks or Jazz or Nuggets fans, you'd be the mirror image of yourself, arguing that Crowder is better than Carmelo or Hayward or Gallo, priding yourself on being a better fan by not being a fan. Except in that case you'd have actual objective measures to back up your argument.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM/position/5

[Ogaju]

SG/SF Jae Crowder
PG/SG Marcus Smart...

Brooklyn Nets 2016 1st round pick...

Nope.

You're trading for a top 20 player in the league who rivals top 15 when he is at the top of his game. If anything that's short changing the Bulls. Please give what you would offer to the Bulls for him??

That haul for Butler? Why don't you just hand them the franchise and the deed to the Garden? I am so glad you are not Danny. Oh wait. Danny? Is this some kind of April Fool's joke?

[ABOS (A bit of Sanity)]

2 Brooklyn picks plus any combination of Celtics besides Isaiah, Smart, Crowder. Butler is fantastic, but he's also not that much more effective than Crowder. Crowder is probably the 5th best SF in the league.

I like Crowder and all but hes not a top 5 SF

When paul George thought he was PF he was close.

KD-Lebron-Kawhi are in a different echelon altogether, but then its probably Melo, Hayward and Gallo.

GA i guess is a point gaurd now, so if you think George is a PF and GA is a pg then you could certainly argue that Crowder is right there with Melo Hayward and Gallo for that 5th spot.

Sure you can make that argument but i would counter that with Jimmy Butler, Klay Thompson, and Harden, who are all G/F. In that case he falls down the list

Butler, Thompson, and Harden are primarily shooting guards. Crowder is a better overall player than Carmelo, Hayward, and Gallinari. I am so, so, sooooo bored by fans who don't understand that basketball has baskets at both ends.

Ya and there plenty of people bored by fans who overate players because they are on the celts. How do you figure he's better. They are all far superior offense players. Crowder is the best defensive player of the bunch but it doesn't make up for how much better they are at offensive. Just because you are a "two way player'  doesn't necessarily mean your better then far superior offensive players.

You know what kind of fans are even more boring than fans who don't appreciate the two-way nature of the sport? Fans who fancy themselves as more "sane" because they reflexively underrate the home team's players, who confuse negativity with objectivity. Yawn. If we were Knicks or Jazz or Nuggets fans, you'd be the mirror image of yourself, arguing that Crowder is better than Carmelo or Hayward or Gallo, priding yourself on being a better fan by not being a fan. Except in that case you'd have actual objective measures to back up your argument.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM/position/5

Just because I think Jae is the 7th best SF and not the fifth does not mean that i dont appreciate the nature of two way basketball or 'reflexively underrate the home teams players. Also the real +- metric is very flawed if by the same logic i am suppose to believe that Dudley is 10th best SF as far as r+- where giannas is 17 Parsons 20?

To keep going with the imperfection of the R+- stat.

Real +- Rank in entire league
Jokic- 9th
Frye- 20th
Boban- 29th
David West- 30th
Anthony Davis- 53
Blake Griffen 56
Aldridge-58
Klay Thompson-67
Damien Lillard 68
Isiah Thomas-69
These are just examples that the Real +- stat isnt necessarily an accurate rating of how good a player is.

[Dino Pitino]

2 Brooklyn picks plus any combination of Celtics besides Isaiah, Smart, Crowder. Butler is fantastic, but he's also not that much more effective than Crowder. Crowder is probably the 5th best SF in the league.

I like Crowder and all but hes not a top 5 SF

When paul George thought he was PF he was close.

KD-Lebron-Kawhi are in a different echelon altogether, but then its probably Melo, Hayward and Gallo.

GA i guess is a point gaurd now, so if you think George is a PF and GA is a pg then you could certainly argue that Crowder is right there with Melo Hayward and Gallo for that 5th spot.

Sure you can make that argument but i would counter that with Jimmy Butler, Klay Thompson, and Harden, who are all G/F. In that case he falls down the list

Butler, Thompson, and Harden are primarily shooting guards. Crowder is a better overall player than Carmelo, Hayward, and Gallinari. I am so, so, sooooo bored by fans who don't understand that basketball has baskets at both ends.

Ya and there plenty of people bored by fans who overate players because they are on the celts. How do you figure he's better. They are all far superior offense players. Crowder is the best defensive player of the bunch but it doesn't make up for how much better they are at offensive. Just because you are a "two way player'  doesn't necessarily mean your better then far superior offensive players.

You know what kind of fans are even more boring than fans who don't appreciate the two-way nature of the sport? Fans who fancy themselves as more "sane" because they reflexively underrate the home team's players, who confuse negativity with objectivity. Yawn. If we were Knicks or Jazz or Nuggets fans, you'd be the mirror image of yourself, arguing that Crowder is better than Carmelo or Hayward or Gallo, priding yourself on being a better fan by not being a fan. Except in that case you'd have actual objective measures to back up your argument.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM/position/5

Just because I think Jae is the 7th best SF and not the fifth does not mean that i dont appreciate the nature of two way basketball or 'reflexively underrate the home teams players. Also the real +- metric is very flawed if by the same logic i am suppose to believe that Dudley is 10th best SF as far as r+- where giannas is 17 Parsons 20?

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/WINS/position/5

There, that better? Not sure what's so special about Parsons that you find it hard to believe Dudley is worth more on the court.

Anyway, Crowder's WS/48 is better than Hayward's and way better than Anthony's, too, and just slightly lower than Gallinari's. The only stats you could provide to show that Crowder is worse than those three are stats which privilege offensive production. Which brings us back to your overemphasis on offense.

Real +- Rank in entire league
Jokic- 9th
Frye- 20th
Boban- 29th
David West- 30th
These are just examples that the Real +- stat isnt necessarily an accurate rating of how good a player is.
« Last Edit: Today at 02:43:02 PM by ABOS (A bit of Sanity) »

If including players who are used in limited minutes, yeah, uh, duh, of course the rankings are not necessarily going to be as accurate. See how they're ranked in that second link I posted, which factors how much they play. Anyway, those players don't suck. In limited minutes, they have been extremely effective.

[ABOS (A bit of Sanity)]

2 Brooklyn picks plus any combination of Celtics besides Isaiah, Smart, Crowder. Butler is fantastic, but he's also not that much more effective than Crowder. Crowder is probably the 5th best SF in the league.

I like Crowder and all but hes not a top 5 SF

When paul George thought he was PF he was close.

KD-Lebron-Kawhi are in a different echelon altogether, but then its probably Melo, Hayward and Gallo.

GA i guess is a point gaurd now, so if you think George is a PF and GA is a pg then you could certainly argue that Crowder is right there with Melo Hayward and Gallo for that 5th spot.

Sure you can make that argument but i would counter that with Jimmy Butler, Klay Thompson, and Harden, who are all G/F. In that case he falls down the list

Butler, Thompson, and Harden are primarily shooting guards. Crowder is a better overall player than Carmelo, Hayward, and Gallinari. I am so, so, sooooo bored by fans who don't understand that basketball has baskets at both ends.

Ya and there plenty of people bored by fans who overate players because they are on the celts. How do you figure he's better. They are all far superior offense players. Crowder is the best defensive player of the bunch but it doesn't make up for how much better they are at offensive. Just because you are a "two way player'  doesn't necessarily mean your better then far superior offensive players.

You know what kind of fans are even more boring than fans who don't appreciate the two-way nature of the sport? Fans who fancy themselves as more "sane" because they reflexively underrate the home team's players, who confuse negativity with objectivity. Yawn. If we were Knicks or Jazz or Nuggets fans, you'd be the mirror image of yourself, arguing that Crowder is better than Carmelo or Hayward or Gallo, priding yourself on being a better fan by not being a fan. Except in that case you'd have actual objective measures to back up your argument.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM/position/5

Just because I think Jae is the 7th best SF and not the fifth does not mean that i dont appreciate the nature of two way basketball or 'reflexively underrate the home teams players. Also the real +- metric is very flawed if by the same logic i am suppose to believe that Dudley is 10th best SF as far as r+- where giannas is 17 Parsons 20?

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/WINS/position/5

There, that better? Not sure what's so special about Parsons that you find it hard to believe Dudley is worth more on the court.

Anyway, Crowder's WS/48 is better than Hayward's and way better than Anthony's, too, and just slightly lower than Gallinari's. The only stats you could provide to show that Crowder is worse than those three are stats which privilege offensive production. Which brings us back to your overemphasis on offense.

That stat your quoting has Channig Frye rated 20th, Boban rated 29th while ranking Anthony Davis 53rd and Damien Lilliard 68th. Not much more too say about that stat.

[Dino Pitino]

2 Brooklyn picks plus any combination of Celtics besides Isaiah, Smart, Crowder. Butler is fantastic, but he's also not that much more effective than Crowder. Crowder is probably the 5th best SF in the league.

I like Crowder and all but hes not a top 5 SF

When paul George thought he was PF he was close.

KD-Lebron-Kawhi are in a different echelon altogether, but then its probably Melo, Hayward and Gallo.

GA i guess is a point gaurd now, so if you think George is a PF and GA is a pg then you could certainly argue that Crowder is right there with Melo Hayward and Gallo for that 5th spot.

Sure you can make that argument but i would counter that with Jimmy Butler, Klay Thompson, and Harden, who are all G/F. In that case he falls down the list

Butler, Thompson, and Harden are primarily shooting guards. Crowder is a better overall player than Carmelo, Hayward, and Gallinari. I am so, so, sooooo bored by fans who don't understand that basketball has baskets at both ends.

Ya and there plenty of people bored by fans who overate players because they are on the celts. How do you figure he's better. They are all far superior offense players. Crowder is the best defensive player of the bunch but it doesn't make up for how much better they are at offensive. Just because you are a "two way player'  doesn't necessarily mean your better then far superior offensive players.

You know what kind of fans are even more boring than fans who don't appreciate the two-way nature of the sport? Fans who fancy themselves as more "sane" because they reflexively underrate the home team's players, who confuse negativity with objectivity. Yawn. If we were Knicks or Jazz or Nuggets fans, you'd be the mirror image of yourself, arguing that Crowder is better than Carmelo or Hayward or Gallo, priding yourself on being a better fan by not being a fan. Except in that case you'd have actual objective measures to back up your argument.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM/position/5

Just because I think Jae is the 7th best SF and not the fifth does not mean that i dont appreciate the nature of two way basketball or 'reflexively underrate the home teams players. Also the real +- metric is very flawed if by the same logic i am suppose to believe that Dudley is 10th best SF as far as r+- where giannas is 17 Parsons 20?

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/WINS/position/5

There, that better? Not sure what's so special about Parsons that you find it hard to believe Dudley is worth more on the court.

Anyway, Crowder's WS/48 is better than Hayward's and way better than Anthony's, too, and just slightly lower than Gallinari's. The only stats you could provide to show that Crowder is worse than those three are stats which privilege offensive production. Which brings us back to your overemphasis on offense.

That stat your quoting has Channig Frye rated 20th, Boban rated 29th while ranking Anthony Davis 53rd and Damien Lilliard 68th. Not much more too say about that stat.

1. Try the "WINS" column, which takes playing time into account. 2. Find me a stat that doesn't have any apparent weirdness in its rankings. Actually, don't bother, because you will fail.

You don't like the fact that your "objective" opinion was undermined by data, so all you can do is try to impeach the data. If you found a metric that supported your opinion, you would present that metric as reliable, and make excuses for its weirdness, and claim its counterintuitive rankings were justified.

This is part of what makes fans like you boring. You're predictable.

[ABOS (A bit of Sanity)]

2 Brooklyn picks plus any combination of Celtics besides Isaiah, Smart, Crowder. Butler is fantastic, but he's also not that much more effective than Crowder. Crowder is probably the 5th best SF in the league.

I like Crowder and all but hes not a top 5 SF

When paul George thought he was PF he was close.

KD-Lebron-Kawhi are in a different echelon altogether, but then its probably Melo, Hayward and Gallo.

GA i guess is a point gaurd now, so if you think George is a PF and GA is a pg then you could certainly argue that Crowder is right there with Melo Hayward and Gallo for that 5th spot.

Sure you can make that argument but i would counter that with Jimmy Butler, Klay Thompson, and Harden, who are all G/F. In that case he falls down the list

Butler, Thompson, and Harden are primarily shooting guards. Crowder is a better overall player than Carmelo, Hayward, and Gallinari. I am so, so, sooooo bored by fans who don't understand that basketball has baskets at both ends.

Ya and there plenty of people bored by fans who overate players because they are on the celts. How do you figure he's better. They are all far superior offense players. Crowder is the best defensive player of the bunch but it doesn't make up for how much better they are at offensive. Just because you are a "two way player'  doesn't necessarily mean your better then far superior offensive players.

You know what kind of fans are even more boring than fans who don't appreciate the two-way nature of the sport? Fans who fancy themselves as more "sane" because they reflexively underrate the home team's players, who confuse negativity with objectivity. Yawn. If we were Knicks or Jazz or Nuggets fans, you'd be the mirror image of yourself, arguing that Crowder is better than Carmelo or Hayward or Gallo, priding yourself on being a better fan by not being a fan. Except in that case you'd have actual objective measures to back up your argument.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM/position/5

Just because I think Jae is the 7th best SF and not the fifth does not mean that i dont appreciate the nature of two way basketball or 'reflexively underrate the home teams players. Also the real +- metric is very flawed if by the same logic i am suppose to believe that Dudley is 10th best SF as far as r+- where giannas is 17 Parsons 20?

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/WINS/position/5

There, that better? Not sure what's so special about Parsons that you find it hard to believe Dudley is worth more on the court.

Anyway, Crowder's WS/48 is better than Hayward's and way better than Anthony's, too, and just slightly lower than Gallinari's. The only stats you could provide to show that Crowder is worse than those three are stats which privilege offensive production. Which brings us back to your overemphasis on offense.

That stat your quoting has Channig Frye rated 20th, Boban rated 29th while ranking Anthony Davis 53rd and Damien Lilliard 68th. Not much more too say about that stat.

1. Try the "WINS" column, which takes playing time into account. 2. Find me a stat that doesn't have any apparent weirdness in its rankings. Actually, don't bother, because you will fail.

You don't like the fact that your "objective" opinion was undermined by data, so all you can do is try to impeach the data. If you found a metric that supported your opinion, you would present that metric as reliable, and make excuses for its weirdness, and claim its counterintuitive rankings were justified.

This is part of what makes fans like you boring. You're predictable.

Or maybe i just watch alot of basketball and don't need to search out analytics to back up my point.  Your acting like i'm saying Crowder is some type of scrub all's I'm saying is i would rather have 2 SFs other then him. Hes a great player and is playing in a situation that is a perfect fit for him. But i need stats to tell me what my eye can see. As predictable as that may be so is the opposite side of the coin relying solely on analytics many of which are very flawed to make a point.

[Denis998]

talk about an overpay

[alewilliam789]

2 Brooklyn picks plus any combination of Celtics besides Isaiah, Smart, Crowder. Butler is fantastic, but he's also not that much more effective than Crowder. Crowder is probably the 5th best SF in the league.

Yeah Crowder isn't that much better than Butler even though Butler is better in almost every statistic  besides 3 point shooting percentage in a down year. He averages almost 7 PPG more than Crowder, 3 APG more which shows he's a better playmaker, has a significantly higher PER than Crowder, more overall win shares, and a better Box Plus Minus according to Sport's Reference.
Crowder is a better defender, is a better 3 point shooter this year, and they average similar shooting percentages, but that is it.
It's ridiculous how much some Celtics' fans want to overrate our players. Crowder is a good player, but let's not get out of hand.

Smart is a perennial bench player and you can just look at how bad he is offensively to understand that statement.

Also I just offered our Boston pick and Brooklyn's not both Brooklyn's picks for next year.

[LarBrd33]

I'm honestly not that excited this offseason because I have a high doubt that anything crazy will happen, but when I was beginning to think how we could get some of the dominoes to fall I started to realize that with the opportunities at hand we may have the opportunity to have a 2007-08 offseason.
First domino to fall is a Jimmy Butler trade:

Celtics get:
SG/SF Jimmy Butler

Bulls get:
SG/SF Jae Crowder
PG/SG Marcus Smart
F Jonas Jerebko
Brooklyn Nets 2016 1st round pick
Boston Celtics 2016 1st round pick
Philadelphia 76ers 2016 2nd round pick


After seeing this Kevin Durant realizes that Boston is a big time contender with Butler and him at the helm of our green squad and hops on board. His buddy Al Horford wants a ring so he comes over and signs too.

In the 2016 draft we get the 12th overall pick and draft Denzel Valentine

Starting Lineup:
PG: Isaiah Thomas
SG: Jimmy Butler
SF: Kevin Durant
PF: Amir Johnson
C: Al Horford

Now that's a championship team.

We could just land Ben Simmons, sign Horford and Durant, and trade extra assets (Marcus Smart, Dallas pick, our own pick, etc) for another impact player.   There really is the potential to have a franchise-altering offseason. 

[alewilliam789]

I'm honestly not that excited this offseason because I have a high doubt that anything crazy will happen, but when I was beginning to think how we could get some of the dominoes to fall I started to realize that with the opportunities at hand we may have the opportunity to have a 2007-08 offseason.
First domino to fall is a Jimmy Butler trade:

Celtics get:
SG/SF Jimmy Butler

Bulls get:
SG/SF Jae Crowder
PG/SG Marcus Smart
F Jonas Jerebko
Brooklyn Nets 2016 1st round pick
Boston Celtics 2016 1st round pick
Philadelphia 76ers 2016 2nd round pick


After seeing this Kevin Durant realizes that Boston is a big time contender with Butler and him at the helm of our green squad and hops on board. His buddy Al Horford wants a ring so he comes over and signs too.

In the 2016 draft we get the 12th overall pick and draft Denzel Valentine

Starting Lineup:
PG: Isaiah Thomas
SG: Jimmy Butler
SF: Kevin Durant
PF: Amir Johnson
C: Al Horford

Now that's a championship team.

We could just land Ben Simmons, sign Horford and Durant, and trade extra assets (Marcus Smart, Dallas pick, our own pick, etc) for another impact player.   There really is the potential to have a franchise-altering offseason.

So true my man!!! I honestly would rather have Simmons then Ingram in our system with Horford. That would be nasty!!!

[Dino Pitino]

2 Brooklyn picks plus any combination of Celtics besides Isaiah, Smart, Crowder. Butler is fantastic, but he's also not that much more effective than Crowder. Crowder is probably the 5th best SF in the league.

Yeah Crowder isn't that much better than Butler even though Butler is better in almost every statistic  besides 3 point shooting percentage in a down year. He averages almost 7 PPG more than Crowder, 3 APG more which shows he's a better playmaker, has a significantly higher PER than Crowder, more overall win shares, and a better Box Plus Minus according to Sport's Reference.
Crowder is a better defender, is a better 3 point shooter this year, and they average similar shooting percentages, but that is it.
It's ridiculous how much some Celtics' fans want to overrate our players. Crowder is a good player, but let's not get out of hand.

Smart is a perennial bench player and you can just look at how bad he is offensively to understand that statement.

Also I just offered our Boston pick and Brooklyn's not both Brooklyn's picks for next year.

Not that much better. Meaning, yeah, he's better, but the difference between Butler and Crowder is not worth Smart + the Nets pick + the other picks. You're taking one giant leap forward but three large steps back, and overall it's a deal the Celtics would lose.

[Dino Pitino]

2 Brooklyn picks plus any combination of Celtics besides Isaiah, Smart, Crowder. Butler is fantastic, but he's also not that much more effective than Crowder. Crowder is probably the 5th best SF in the league.

I like Crowder and all but hes not a top 5 SF

When paul George thought he was PF he was close.

KD-Lebron-Kawhi are in a different echelon altogether, but then its probably Melo, Hayward and Gallo.

GA i guess is a point gaurd now, so if you think George is a PF and GA is a pg then you could certainly argue that Crowder is right there with Melo Hayward and Gallo for that 5th spot.

Sure you can make that argument but i would counter that with Jimmy Butler, Klay Thompson, and Harden, who are all G/F. In that case he falls down the list

Butler, Thompson, and Harden are primarily shooting guards. Crowder is a better overall player than Carmelo, Hayward, and Gallinari. I am so, so, sooooo bored by fans who don't understand that basketball has baskets at both ends.

Ya and there plenty of people bored by fans who overate players because they are on the celts. How do you figure he's better. They are all far superior offense players. Crowder is the best defensive player of the bunch but it doesn't make up for how much better they are at offensive. Just because you are a "two way player'  doesn't necessarily mean your better then far superior offensive players.

You know what kind of fans are even more boring than fans who don't appreciate the two-way nature of the sport? Fans who fancy themselves as more "sane" because they reflexively underrate the home team's players, who confuse negativity with objectivity. Yawn. If we were Knicks or Jazz or Nuggets fans, you'd be the mirror image of yourself, arguing that Crowder is better than Carmelo or Hayward or Gallo, priding yourself on being a better fan by not being a fan. Except in that case you'd have actual objective measures to back up your argument.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM/position/5

Just because I think Jae is the 7th best SF and not the fifth does not mean that i dont appreciate the nature of two way basketball or 'reflexively underrate the home teams players. Also the real +- metric is very flawed if by the same logic i am suppose to believe that Dudley is 10th best SF as far as r+- where giannas is 17 Parsons 20?

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/WINS/position/5

There, that better? Not sure what's so special about Parsons that you find it hard to believe Dudley is worth more on the court.

Anyway, Crowder's WS/48 is better than Hayward's and way better than Anthony's, too, and just slightly lower than Gallinari's. The only stats you could provide to show that Crowder is worse than those three are stats which privilege offensive production. Which brings us back to your overemphasis on offense.

That stat your quoting has Channig Frye rated 20th, Boban rated 29th while ranking Anthony Davis 53rd and Damien Lilliard 68th. Not much more too say about that stat.

1. Try the "WINS" column, which takes playing time into account. 2. Find me a stat that doesn't have any apparent weirdness in its rankings. Actually, don't bother, because you will fail.

You don't like the fact that your "objective" opinion was undermined by data, so all you can do is try to impeach the data. If you found a metric that supported your opinion, you would present that metric as reliable, and make excuses for its weirdness, and claim its counterintuitive rankings were justified.

This is part of what makes fans like you boring. You're predictable.

Or maybe i just watch alot of basketball and don't need to search out analytics to back up my point.  Your acting like i'm saying Crowder is some type of scrub all's I'm saying is i would rather have 2 SFs other then him. Hes a great player and is playing in a situation that is a perfect fit for him. But i need stats to tell me what my eye can see. As predictable as that may be so is the opposite side of the coin relying solely on analytics many of which are very flawed to make a point.

It's not relying "solely" on analytics. We both agree that Crowder is not as good an offensive player as Carmelo, but is a better defender. You said Carmelo is a far superior offensive player. I think Crowder is a far superior defensive player. Tell me what way you would prefer to quantify it all, if not analytics, stats, etc.

[Sketch5]

2 Brooklyn picks plus any combination of Celtics besides Isaiah, Smart, Crowder. Butler is fantastic, but he's also not that much more effective than Crowder. Crowder is probably the 5th best SF in the league.

I like Crowder and all but hes not a top 5 SF

When paul George thought he was PF he was close.

KD-Lebron-Kawhi are in a different echelon altogether, but then its probably Melo, Hayward and Gallo.

GA i guess is a point gaurd now, so if you think George is a PF and GA is a pg then you could certainly argue that Crowder is right there with Melo Hayward and Gallo for that 5th spot.

Sure you can make that argument but i would counter that with Jimmy Butler, Klay Thompson, and Harden, who are all G/F. In that case he falls down the list

Butler, Thompson, and Harden are primarily shooting guards. Crowder is a better overall player than Carmelo, Hayward, and Gallinari. I am so, so, sooooo bored by fans who don't understand that basketball has baskets at both ends.

Haywards no scrub on the defensive end. Plays good D, not Crowder good, but solid. He did play for Stevens who wouldn't let him not. Hayward is better on the offensive end. Crowder can only really score on spot up jumpers, transition and straight line drives. Hayward can create his own shot. They rebound and steal about the same, Hayward gets more assists which translate into more offense. So Hayward would be a better all around player.

Crowder is more of a Posey type player, 3 and D, who is a boardline starter who has a ton of heart and changes culture. Now ideally it would be Durant with Crowder backing him up.  Heck I'd even be fine with Crowder playing PF with an upgrade at SF and SG.

[CFAN38]

I doubt the Bulls do it but I like the prospect for trading smart all 3 picks this year and future first for butler and then convincing AB to be 6th man. That team may be enough to entice Horford. Then add a defensive center (maybe Noah short term) and you have a team to compete for #1 in the east next season. That roster would give the cavs fits in small ball