Author Topic: Getting destroyed in the middle all year  (Read 9844 times)

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Re: Getting destroyed in the middle all year
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2016, 01:29:43 PM »

Offline moiso

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While I like that DA stayed pat with the BK pick he really needed some help in the middle..
While everyone is saying we need another star or one "big" piece away I wholeheartedly disagree..
The Celtics need a defense presence in the middle... They rank near thew bottom in rebounds, second chance points, blocks.. Lately they have been giving up 20 plus games to Towns,Jokic, Favors,Jordan,Monroe, Cousins in the past 6 games... Nerleans Noel could probably been had at a decent price...

This team scores with efficiency ranks fourth in the NBA in scoring but wow all this team has is either a stretch 7' who cant defend or and undersized center who relies on pushing his weight..



Reggie EVENS is a beast in the middle...  Not the best shot blocker, but has a little Perk in him.   Hard fouls and a mean streak.   Get him...
I would have loved to have him a few years ago,  but I'm not sure if I would want a 35 year old who's main skill was always his great motor.  He used to be one of my favorites though.

Re: Getting destroyed in the middle all year
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2016, 01:34:53 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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Meh, a lot of exaggeration around here.

...

At some point people need to stop extrapolating things from single games, but further than that, recognize how dominant and legit talent Towns is.
Agreed. Like the person who mentions Mosgov having some good games. Yeah, well some PG and SG have had some good games. Does that mean we need better perimeter defenders?


Re: Getting destroyed in the middle all year
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2016, 01:36:45 PM »

Offline jpd985

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Meh, a lot of exaggeration around here. But certainly, something to address. Stevens' penchant for going small doesn't help matters much, overplaying Sullinger in those units doesn't help matters much since he sucks on them. But if the other bigs are playing like crap, what can you do?

I see a lot of finger pointing last night to Sullinger around the blog, yet there's a distinctive lack of mention to the poor job Amir (who's primary assignment was Towns) and Zeller (who is the only player with the actual required size to defend opposing centers) did.

I mean, you also had some plays in which Sullinger was the only player boxing-out surrounded by other 3 white jerseys with no man on them. Before crying about lack of length to defend, there are so many small details that can be corrected to begin with and go from there.

Towns is a monster though. As for all the crying about how KO would've made the difference defensively, I think it's a lot of BS. Towns and Dieng are simply bad match-ups for us, with or without KO. They played very well this year against us prior to this one.

I'll also point out that Towns had big games against Toronto, New York, and Chicago in the past couple of weeks... three teams who don't suffer from length issues at all.

At some point people need to stop extrapolating things from single games, but further than that, recognize how dominant and legit talent Towns is.

There is no doubt about Town's talent, but it seems every big 6-10 or greater has been having their way with us. Even Gorgi Deng had a good game and he is no where near where Town's is. I don't blame Danny for not overpaying for a rental but I hope we can get some inside help this offseason.

Re: Getting destroyed in the middle all year
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2016, 01:39:55 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Meh, a lot of exaggeration around here. But certainly, something to address. Stevens' penchant for going small doesn't help matters much, overplaying Sullinger in those units doesn't help matters much since he sucks on them. But if the other bigs are playing like crap, what can you do?

I see a lot of finger pointing last night to Sullinger around the blog, yet there's a distinctive lack of mention to the poor job Amir (who's primary assignment was Towns) and Zeller (who is the only player with the actual required size to defend opposing centers) did.

I mean, you also had some plays in which Sullinger was the only player boxing-out surrounded by other 3 white jerseys with no man on them. Before crying about lack of length to defend, there are so many small details that can be corrected to begin with and go from there.

Towns is a monster though. As for all the crying about how KO would've made the difference defensively, I think it's a lot of BS. Towns and Dieng are simply bad match-ups for us, with or without KO. They played very well this year against us prior to this one.

I'll also point out that Towns had big games against Toronto, New York, and Chicago in the past couple of weeks... three teams who don't suffer from length issues at all.

At some point people need to stop extrapolating things from single games, but further than that, recognize how dominant and legit talent Towns is.

There is no doubt about Town's talent, but it seems every big 6-10 or greater has been having their way with us. Even Gorgi Deng had a good game and he is no where near where Town's is. I don't blame Danny for not overpaying for a rental but I hope we can get some inside help this offseason.

As much as Towns, Dieng has had big games recently to teams that have the personnel for better interior defending.

There's plenty that can be done schematically, and more attention to detail. Having length is not really the main answer to that, else Zeller would've been a better solution for us than he's been for us this season.

Re: Getting destroyed in the middle all year
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2016, 02:07:26 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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Meh, a lot of exaggeration around here. But certainly, something to address. Stevens' penchant for going small doesn't help matters much, overplaying Sullinger in those units doesn't help matters much since he sucks on them. But if the other bigs are playing like crap, what can you do?

I see a lot of finger pointing last night to Sullinger around the blog, yet there's a distinctive lack of mention to the poor job Amir (who's primary assignment was Towns) and Zeller (who is the only player with the actual required size to defend opposing centers) did.

I mean, you also had some plays in which Sullinger was the only player boxing-out surrounded by other 3 white jerseys with no man on them. Before crying about lack of length to defend, there are so many small details that can be corrected to begin with and go from there.

Towns is a monster though. As for all the crying about how KO would've made the difference defensively, I think it's a lot of BS. Towns and Dieng are simply bad match-ups for us, with or without KO. They played very well this year against us prior to this one.

I'll also point out that Towns had big games against Toronto, New York, and Chicago in the past couple of weeks... three teams who don't suffer from length issues at all.

At some point people need to stop extrapolating things from single games, but further than that, recognize how dominant and legit talent Towns is.

There is no doubt about Town's talent, but it seems every big 6-10 or greater has been having their way with us. Even Gorgi Deng had a good game and he is no where near where Town's is. I don't blame Danny for not overpaying for a rental but I hope we can get some inside help this offseason.

As much as Towns, Dieng has had big games recently to teams that have the personnel for better interior defending.

There's plenty that can be done schematically, and more attention to detail. Having length is not really the main answer to that, else Zeller would've been a better solution for us than he's been for us this season.
Zeller has a shorter wingspan than Sullinger so he's actually not a more lengthy option.

Besides Towns/Dieng hurting us. Gobert and Favors also killed us. As did Greg Monroe and to a lesser extent even Robin Lopez. It's not just a reaction to last night, it's a reaction to what I have seen the entire year against traditional centers.

While I don't think it's a huge problem because not everyone has traditional centers like this who are issues, I would like to see the Celtics add a traditional center to the team next year.
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Re: Getting destroyed in the middle all year
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2016, 02:14:27 PM »

Offline Snakehead

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Olynyk is really underrated in this regard not because he is a beast inside but because he pulls a big way from the rim which matters a lot.  It hurts the other teams defensive rebounding (and allows other C's to get offensive boards) and provides an angle for our guys to attack the paint against less resistance.

Yeah, it would be great to have a physical big to match others.  But Olynyk gets at that problem in a round about way.

While he's hurt, we are forced to watch Zeller not even be able to catch passes.

Ultimately last night if we did rebound a bit better and play harder and tighten up on a few possessions, we could have won this game even giving up that disadvantage inside.  This team is regularly at that disadvantage with a winning record.

While KO can do certain things defensively he is certainly not the answer... again the Celtics have been getting beat all year in the middle..

And yet we have a good record and the team has been successful with only one "star" type player (who played very poorly yesterday and we still almost won).  Every team has its weaknesses.  Lets not let one game get us back into "THIS TEAM ONLY NEEDS A RIM PROTECTOR THEN BANNER 18" mode.  That is very short sighted.  It is a weakness, but Olynyk (and our team in general) can provide strengths that offset it.  That's my point.  Without Olynyk, we are having to play more traditional with Zeller and he has been so bad that it has not worked well.
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Re: Getting destroyed in the middle all year
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2016, 02:50:46 PM »

Offline cltc5

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Lol olynyk is that big of a factor.  This team has serious problems if that's the case

Re: Getting destroyed in the middle all year
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2016, 02:55:38 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Meh, a lot of exaggeration around here. But certainly, something to address. Stevens' penchant for going small doesn't help matters much, overplaying Sullinger in those units doesn't help matters much since he sucks on them. But if the other bigs are playing like crap, what can you do?

I see a lot of finger pointing last night to Sullinger around the blog, yet there's a distinctive lack of mention to the poor job Amir (who's primary assignment was Towns) and Zeller (who is the only player with the actual required size to defend opposing centers) did.

I mean, you also had some plays in which Sullinger was the only player boxing-out surrounded by other 3 white jerseys with no man on them. Before crying about lack of length to defend, there are so many small details that can be corrected to begin with and go from there.

Towns is a monster though. As for all the crying about how KO would've made the difference defensively, I think it's a lot of BS. Towns and Dieng are simply bad match-ups for us, with or without KO. They played very well this year against us prior to this one.

I'll also point out that Towns had big games against Toronto, New York, and Chicago in the past couple of weeks... three teams who don't suffer from length issues at all.

At some point people need to stop extrapolating things from single games, but further than that, recognize how dominant and legit talent Towns is.

There is no doubt about Town's talent, but it seems every big 6-10 or greater has been having their way with us. Even Gorgi Deng had a good game and he is no where near where Town's is. I don't blame Danny for not overpaying for a rental but I hope we can get some inside help this offseason.

As much as Towns, Dieng has had big games recently to teams that have the personnel for better interior defending.

There's plenty that can be done schematically, and more attention to detail. Having length is not really the main answer to that, else Zeller would've been a better solution for us than he's been for us this season.
Zeller has a shorter wingspan than Sullinger so he's actually not a more lengthy option.

Besides Towns/Dieng hurting us. Gobert and Favors also killed us. As did Greg Monroe and to a lesser extent even Robin Lopez. It's not just a reaction to last night, it's a reaction to what I have seen the entire year against traditional centers.

While I don't think it's a huge problem because not everyone has traditional centers like this who are issues, I would like to see the Celtics add a traditional center to the team next year.

I do think it's a problem that needs some addressing, but I think there's a lot of discounting how these players perform against other teams, and also other bigs that have had good performances against top interior defenders.

I don't think we're being "as killed" in the big scheme of things as it's been made out to be, though it's an area that certain types of players can certainly take advantage of.

For example, I already illustrated how Towns/Dieng have been playing recently outside of their play against the Celtics.

Robin Lopez just had a big game against Toronto and Minnesota (whose bigs we're apparently salivating over). He had another huge game recently against Dummond.

Gobert/Favors have been having big games all season long against a lot of teams.

Part of what I'm pointing out also is that our teams, from what I've seen, is not struggling all that much more than other teams. Seems to me that teams in general as a rule have trouble protecting the paint with few exceptions.

I'll point out that I'm not trying to argue that it's not an area we should be trying to improve (better collection of talent and/or schematically), but speaking of getting destroyed all year seems a bit exaggerated and spoken as if it were an aberration to what other teams are going through. But we're playing it by ear her, I'd love to discuss this more with actual numbers... that I don't have access to right now sadly.

We also have the context that we have a team that likes to play small, but don't have all the ideal bigs we'd like for such units, so we get burned a lot when that happens. Not really the full case last night as those two were beating us up regardless of our units. But in general we're sacrificing a lot of what remains to be somewhat competent in the middle in favor of looking for more advantages in other areas.

I do think that Stevens needs to employ double teams a bit more against some particular players. For example, like we did against Lopez when Olynyk was starting. Those strategies have seemed to work quite well for us since we have very good perimeter defenders who can switch and recover with just about anyone. So that's something I'd like to see to address some of those issues prior to bemoaning the lack of length with which we can do nothing about and doesn't guarantee that we'd play better schematically.

Also one has to wonder how much of our struggles defensively of other bigs occur when they need to over-help the player Thomas is defending. Just a lot of going on outside of lacking length that we can get better at.

Re: Getting destroyed in the middle all year
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2016, 03:04:47 PM »

Offline BostonBurbs

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Re: Getting destroyed in the middle all year
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2016, 03:16:50 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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Meh, a lot of exaggeration around here. But certainly, something to address. Stevens' penchant for going small doesn't help matters much, overplaying Sullinger in those units doesn't help matters much since he sucks on them. But if the other bigs are playing like crap, what can you do?

I see a lot of finger pointing last night to Sullinger around the blog, yet there's a distinctive lack of mention to the poor job Amir (who's primary assignment was Towns) and Zeller (who is the only player with the actual required size to defend opposing centers) did.

I mean, you also had some plays in which Sullinger was the only player boxing-out surrounded by other 3 white jerseys with no man on them. Before crying about lack of length to defend, there are so many small details that can be corrected to begin with and go from there.

Towns is a monster though. As for all the crying about how KO would've made the difference defensively, I think it's a lot of BS. Towns and Dieng are simply bad match-ups for us, with or without KO. They played very well this year against us prior to this one.

I'll also point out that Towns had big games against Toronto, New York, and Chicago in the past couple of weeks... three teams who don't suffer from length issues at all.

At some point people need to stop extrapolating things from single games, but further than that, recognize how dominant and legit talent Towns is.

There is no doubt about Town's talent, but it seems every big 6-10 or greater has been having their way with us. Even Gorgi Deng had a good game and he is no where near where Town's is. I don't blame Danny for not overpaying for a rental but I hope we can get some inside help this offseason.

As much as Towns, Dieng has had big games recently to teams that have the personnel for better interior defending.

There's plenty that can be done schematically, and more attention to detail. Having length is not really the main answer to that, else Zeller would've been a better solution for us than he's been for us this season.
Zeller has a shorter wingspan than Sullinger so he's actually not a more lengthy option.

Besides Towns/Dieng hurting us. Gobert and Favors also killed us. As did Greg Monroe and to a lesser extent even Robin Lopez. It's not just a reaction to last night, it's a reaction to what I have seen the entire year against traditional centers.

While I don't think it's a huge problem because not everyone has traditional centers like this who are issues, I would like to see the Celtics add a traditional center to the team next year.

I do think it's a problem that needs some addressing, but I think there's a lot of discounting how these players perform against other teams, and also other bigs that have had good performances against top interior defenders.

I don't think we're being "as killed" in the big scheme of things as it's been made out to be, though it's an area that certain types of players can certainly take advantage of.

For example, I already illustrated how Towns/Dieng have been playing recently outside of their play against the Celtics.

Robin Lopez just had a big game against Toronto and Minnesota (whose bigs we're apparently salivating over). He had another huge game recently against Dummond.

Gobert/Favors have been having big games all season long against a lot of teams.

Part of what I'm pointing out also is that our teams, from what I've seen, is not struggling all that much more than other teams. Seems to me that teams in general as a rule have trouble protecting the paint with few exceptions.

I'll point out that I'm not trying to argue that it's not an area we should be trying to improve (better collection of talent and/or schematically), but speaking of getting destroyed all year seems a bit exaggerated and spoken as if it were an aberration to what other teams are going through. But we're playing it by ear her, I'd love to discuss this more with actual numbers... that I don't have access to right now sadly.

We also have the context that we have a team that likes to play small, but don't have all the ideal bigs we'd like for such units, so we get burned a lot when that happens. Not really the full case last night as those two were beating us up regardless of our units. But in general we're sacrificing a lot of what remains to be somewhat competent in the middle in favor of looking for more advantages in other areas.

I do think that Stevens needs to employ double teams a bit more against some particular players. For example, like we did against Lopez when Olynyk was starting. Those strategies have seemed to work quite well for us since we have very good perimeter defenders who can switch and recover with just about anyone. So that's something I'd like to see to address some of those issues prior to bemoaning the lack of length with which we can do nothing about and doesn't guarantee that we'd play better schematically.

Also one has to wonder how much of our struggles defensively of other bigs occur when they need to over-help the player Thomas is defending. Just a lot of going on outside of lacking length that we can get better at.
I guess we are arguing where the lack of big lands in the spectrum. We agree that the issue is somewhere between "a problem that needs to be addressed" and it being a problem that is "killing/destroying" the Celtics.

I think it is a probably closer to a problem that needs to be addressed than destroying the team. Still we are 25th in the league in defensive rebounding percentage and our foul ratio is worse than all but one team in the league (which might not be caused by not having a traditional back line defender/going small but it certainly doesn't help matters).

My issue is that I do not trust any of our bigs outside of Sully to defend/box out centers with traditional center size. That doesn't mean I think the C's needed to get someone at the deadline, just that they need to upgrade the front court in the offseason.

As I stated, even if we aren't adding a traditional interior center in the offseason it is extremely important we add a player that can negate what larger centers have done against us. Whether it be by adding a traditional center, adding a floor stretching center to pull opponents away from the hoop or adding an athletic small ball 4 that makes doubling a better option schematically we need to upgrade to solve this issue.
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Re: Getting destroyed in the middle all year
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2016, 03:23:54 PM »

Offline Snakehead

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Lol olynyk is that big of a factor.  This team has serious problems if that's the case

You mean like being the 3rd/4th best team in the East?
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Re: Getting destroyed in the middle all year
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2016, 03:56:57 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Meh, a lot of exaggeration around here. But certainly, something to address. Stevens' penchant for going small doesn't help matters much, overplaying Sullinger in those units doesn't help matters much since he sucks on them. But if the other bigs are playing like crap, what can you do?

I see a lot of finger pointing last night to Sullinger around the blog, yet there's a distinctive lack of mention to the poor job Amir (who's primary assignment was Towns) and Zeller (who is the only player with the actual required size to defend opposing centers) did.

I mean, you also had some plays in which Sullinger was the only player boxing-out surrounded by other 3 white jerseys with no man on them. Before crying about lack of length to defend, there are so many small details that can be corrected to begin with and go from there.

Towns is a monster though. As for all the crying about how KO would've made the difference defensively, I think it's a lot of BS. Towns and Dieng are simply bad match-ups for us, with or without KO. They played very well this year against us prior to this one.

I'll also point out that Towns had big games against Toronto, New York, and Chicago in the past couple of weeks... three teams who don't suffer from length issues at all.

At some point people need to stop extrapolating things from single games, but further than that, recognize how dominant and legit talent Towns is.

There is no doubt about Town's talent, but it seems every big 6-10 or greater has been having their way with us. Even Gorgi Deng had a good game and he is no where near where Town's is. I don't blame Danny for not overpaying for a rental but I hope we can get some inside help this offseason.

As much as Towns, Dieng has had big games recently to teams that have the personnel for better interior defending.

There's plenty that can be done schematically, and more attention to detail. Having length is not really the main answer to that, else Zeller would've been a better solution for us than he's been for us this season.
Zeller has a shorter wingspan than Sullinger so he's actually not a more lengthy option.

Besides Towns/Dieng hurting us. Gobert and Favors also killed us. As did Greg Monroe and to a lesser extent even Robin Lopez. It's not just a reaction to last night, it's a reaction to what I have seen the entire year against traditional centers.

While I don't think it's a huge problem because not everyone has traditional centers like this who are issues, I would like to see the Celtics add a traditional center to the team next year.

I do think it's a problem that needs some addressing, but I think there's a lot of discounting how these players perform against other teams, and also other bigs that have had good performances against top interior defenders.

I don't think we're being "as killed" in the big scheme of things as it's been made out to be, though it's an area that certain types of players can certainly take advantage of.

For example, I already illustrated how Towns/Dieng have been playing recently outside of their play against the Celtics.

Robin Lopez just had a big game against Toronto and Minnesota (whose bigs we're apparently salivating over). He had another huge game recently against Dummond.

Gobert/Favors have been having big games all season long against a lot of teams.

Part of what I'm pointing out also is that our teams, from what I've seen, is not struggling all that much more than other teams. Seems to me that teams in general as a rule have trouble protecting the paint with few exceptions.

I'll point out that I'm not trying to argue that it's not an area we should be trying to improve (better collection of talent and/or schematically), but speaking of getting destroyed all year seems a bit exaggerated and spoken as if it were an aberration to what other teams are going through. But we're playing it by ear her, I'd love to discuss this more with actual numbers... that I don't have access to right now sadly.

We also have the context that we have a team that likes to play small, but don't have all the ideal bigs we'd like for such units, so we get burned a lot when that happens. Not really the full case last night as those two were beating us up regardless of our units. But in general we're sacrificing a lot of what remains to be somewhat competent in the middle in favor of looking for more advantages in other areas.

I do think that Stevens needs to employ double teams a bit more against some particular players. For example, like we did against Lopez when Olynyk was starting. Those strategies have seemed to work quite well for us since we have very good perimeter defenders who can switch and recover with just about anyone. So that's something I'd like to see to address some of those issues prior to bemoaning the lack of length with which we can do nothing about and doesn't guarantee that we'd play better schematically.

Also one has to wonder how much of our struggles defensively of other bigs occur when they need to over-help the player Thomas is defending. Just a lot of going on outside of lacking length that we can get better at.
I guess we are arguing where the lack of big lands in the spectrum. We agree that the issue is somewhere between "a problem that needs to be addressed" and it being a problem that is "killing/destroying" the Celtics.

I think it is a probably closer to a problem that needs to be addressed than destroying the team. Still we are 25th in the league in defensive rebounding percentage and our foul ratio is worse than all but one team in the league (which might not be caused by not having a traditional back line defender/going small but it certainly doesn't help matters).

My issue is that I do not trust any of our bigs outside of Sully to defend/box out centers with traditional center size. That doesn't mean I think the C's needed to get someone at the deadline, just that they need to upgrade the front court in the offseason.

As I stated, even if we aren't adding a traditional interior center in the offseason it is extremely important we add a player that can negate what larger centers have done against us. Whether it be by adding a traditional center, adding a floor stretching center to pull opponents away from the hoop or adding an athletic small ball 4 that makes doubling a better option schematically we need to upgrade to solve this issue.

See, now I think we're talking a bit more in the same language when you mention rebounding for example, something that for some reason is not being talked about all that much.

Our team is putrid boxing out. It makes no sense to me, something so basic. That's why made mention of areas that we can address with what we have before going into the automatic length being the problem. As I said, we had some possessions in which Sully was boxing out Dieng/Towns just to have other 2 unmarked opposing players in position to grab a rebound without any resistance. That's a big problem for me.

Outside of that, well Stevens will have to keep juggling our bigs depending on match-ups as it is. Some players Sully is very good at, on others Amir or Olynyk are more adequate to the task, and Zeller who the heck knows what he'll do for us defensively...

Hopefully we can get better players, but it is what it is.

As for fouling? Well, I think that has more to do with our aggressiveness above anything, and Stevens isn't afraid of intentionally fouling either. But yeah, there's some foot speed in the interior we are lacking that might alleviate some of it, but I don't envision that being in particular the main problem. Not that I'm willing to dispute the point either, nor really care for. I'm 50/50 on it.

Re: Getting destroyed in the middle all year
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2016, 03:59:44 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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The Bucks on Thursday.  Moose went off last time we played them.  Sully and Amir need to step it up defensively. 

They can both do better than they've done in the past few games. 
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PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Getting destroyed in the middle all year
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2016, 04:05:15 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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Yup.  The Celts are pretty good in a lot of areas, but they've got very little going on inside.  That's probably the biggest reason why they're likely to get smashed in the playoffs.  Playoff series are won in the trenches.

It's not likely that the Celtics will get "smashed in the playoffs."  We may not be the biggest team out there, but we've got plenty of guys made for "trench warfare."
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Getting destroyed in the middle all year
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2016, 04:21:22 PM »

Offline Greenback

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The Celtics could of easily drafted Dieng a couple years ago.  Instead, they traded up for Olynyk.

All the draft picks in the world don't matter if you don't know how to draft.
Everyone wants truth on his side, not everyone wants to be on the side of truth.