Author Topic: Kevin Love isn't special anymore  (Read 7897 times)

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Re: Kevin Love isn't special anymore
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2016, 03:47:46 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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We need Smart and Crowders defense if Love is in the line up.

I d like to see Nerlins and Love join Crowder , Smart and IT.


To continue the defensive pressure must retain Smart and Crowder .

TP.  I would LOVE that lineup.  Can we add Ben Simmons to it? 

Horford would be a significantly worse investment than Love in my opinion.  This team needs a scorer who can rebound, which in this system Love would THRIVE as. 

Kevin's d isn't great but it is not as bad as people are making it out to be according to analytics.

Anyone who wants Howard instead is just being silly.

Love could go back to being a prolific scorer , let Nerlins protect the paint.

Re: Kevin Love isn't special anymore
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2016, 03:56:07 PM »

Offline walker834

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Love can range out and hit 3's with the best of them which separates him from other power forwards.  He's not really a number #1 or #2 guy he's somewhere in between.  Probably more of a #2 option but he'd be the guy here.  He's unique where he could make a difference.

Re: Kevin Love isn't special anymore
« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2016, 04:14:16 PM »

Offline colincb

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Well, if Love takes a Brooklyn pick, I'd much rather go for Horford or Howard without giving up the pick. I think he's better than both, but not by as much as Cleveland would like to believe in a trade.

Accounting for defense and versatility, I'd take Horford straight up over Love.

By the basketball-reference.com player comparison numbers linked below, they're very close with Love ahead slightly if anything. However, Love's 2 years younger and locked into what will likely be a cheaper contract for the next 4 seasons.

http://bkref.com/tiny/ngacZ

I do think Love's defensive deficiencies are overstated. He obviously has problems in space, but most bigs do. His career Defensive Box +/- is actually positive though his defensive rating is slightly below average at 105. Unfortunately, I don't have ready access to Synergy stats anymore, which IMO are better than these type of stats. OTOH, ESPN stats guru Kevin Pelton did an "Insider" piece in 2014 about a trade of Love to GSW in which he addressed Love's defense:

Quote
...

Numbers don't support Love as a defensive liability

Even the biggest Love skeptic would concede his prowess as a scorer and rebounder -- right before bringing up the defensive end. Here's the thing: It's hard to find statistical support for the widespread notion that Love is a defensive turnstile.

It's possible to highlight stats that showcase Love's defensive shortcomings, particularly as a rim protector. New Spor**** player-tracking data on NBA.com showed that last season opponents shot 57.4 percent when Love was within five feet of attempts near the rim, the league's fourth-worst rate among players who defended at least five rim attempts per game.

However, opponent shooting percentage tells only half of the story. Love's reluctance to contest shots also kept him out of foul trouble and opponents off the free throw line. His 1.8 fouls per 36 minutes were the fewest of any regular big man last season (no one else was below 2.0 per 36), and not coincidentally, the Timberwolves allowed the league's lowest rate of free throws per field goal attempt. The trade-off between not fouling and surrendering layups didn't always work out for Minnesota and former coach Rick Adelman encouraged his team to foul more frequently, but looking at opponent shooting percentages without context is unfair to Love.

There's also the matter of rebounding. For individual players, defensive rebounding is not as valuable as offensive rebounding because many defensive rebounds are discretionary -- another defender will get the rebound if one individual does not -- but it's still part of defense, and the Timberwolves have had a better defensive rebound percentage with Love on the court every season of his career. Last season, per NBA.com/Stats, they rebounded 75.3 percent of opponents' misses with Love and 72.4 percent when he was on the bench.

Add it up and ESPN's real plus-minus shows Love as an above-average defensive player, even for a big man. (Post players rate better on defense in plus-minus metrics as compared to perimeter players.) And despite playing Love with another poor rim protector in center Nikola Pekovic, Minnesota was average defensively last season.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/11251473/why-trading-kevin-love-no-brainer-nba
« Last Edit: February 13, 2016, 04:24:14 PM by colincb »

Re: Kevin Love isn't special anymore
« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2016, 04:18:01 PM »

Offline Rosco917

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We need Smart and Crowders defense if Love is in the line up.

I d like to see Nerlins and Love join Crowder , Smart and IT.


To continue the defensive pressure must retain Smart and Crowder .


that would be special.
Love, Crowder, Noel, Smart, IT

Re: Kevin Love isn't special anymore
« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2016, 04:55:10 PM »

Offline greece66

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Yes, his stocks are low and that's why we might be able to get him for cheap  :police:

Re: Kevin Love isn't special anymore
« Reply #50 on: February 13, 2016, 05:51:06 PM »

Offline Smartacus

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You all hear the other day Lebron... "says if he could play with any legend it would be J Kidd because of his ability find you"

Not that Lebron's wrong, Jason Kidd is one of the best producers of quality shots for his teammates that the game has ever seen, but I do think Lebron is still not entirely aware of just how much he effects his team's offense by being the primary ball handler.

Think even Jason Kidd would have trouble finding him if Lebron played the game the way he always had in his career, he's like Rondo, completely ball dominant. When he doesn't have the ball he's not usually the type to make intelligent cuts or sneaking behind off ball screens, he's calling for the ball so he can drive on his match up.

Lebron IMO is the ultimate example of the AAU system hurting a player's growth. Ever since a young age rather than working with coaches on developing a fundamentally sound game he was playing game after game against inferior competition physically dominating his match ups and passing to teammates who are just spotting up from the same spot they always watch Lebron from. He only ever got as good as he needed to. He never really learned to play off the ball because he never had to when he was learning the game.

Which brings us to Love. Whether its conscious or not Lebron pigeon holes Love into the same role that his mental makeup believes a PF should play and Love's strengths are wasted because of it. Love's just there to kick out too on drives, swing too on the perimeter and clean up Lebron's misses. Lebron's never been able to develop real chemistry with his Love or most of his other teammates in the way that Pierce, KG, and Ray did or Duncan, Parker, and Ginobli did because he views his role on the team as the Lebron show and everyone else needs to get out of his way.

Long winded analysis aside that's just my take on why Love has fallen off as far as he has.

TLDR: Kevin Love is putting up pedestrian PF numbers because the primary ball handler Lebron plays as if he's a pedestrian PF.

Re: Kevin Love isn't special anymore
« Reply #51 on: February 13, 2016, 06:01:26 PM »

Offline knuckleballer

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You all hear the other day Lebron... "says if he could play with any legend it would be J Kidd because of his ability find you"

Not that Lebron's wrong, Jason Kidd is one of the best producers of quality shots for his teammates that the game has ever seen, but I do think Lebron is still not entirely aware of just how much he effects his team's offense by being the primary ball handler.

Think even Jason Kidd would have trouble finding him if Lebron played the game the way he always had in his career, he's like Rondo, completely ball dominant. When he doesn't have the ball he's not usually the type to make intelligent cuts or sneaking behind off ball screens, he's calling for the ball so he can drive on his match up.

Lebron IMO is the ultimate example of the AAU system hurting a player's growth. Ever since a young age rather than working with coaches on developing a fundamentally sound game he was playing game after game against inferior competition physically dominating his match ups and passing to teammates who are just spotting up from the same spot they always watch Lebron from. He only ever got as good as he needed to. He never really learned to play off the ball because he never had to when he was learning the game.

Which brings us to Love. Whether its conscious or not Lebron pigeon holes Love into the same role that his mental makeup believes a PF should play and Love's strengths are wasted because of it. Love's just there to kick out too on drives, swing too on the perimeter and clean up Lebron's misses. Lebron's never been able to develop real chemistry with his Love or most of his other teammates in the way that Pierce, KG, and Ray did or Duncan, Parker, and Ginobli did because he views his role on the team as the Lebron show and everyone else needs to get out of his way.

Long winded analysis aside that's just my take on why Love has fallen off as far as he has.

TLDR: Kevin Love is putting up pedestrian PF numbers because the primary ball handler Lebron plays as if he's a pedestrian PF.

I'm interested in how much AAU has affected the game.  I hear people frequently say it hurts the fundamentals.  I also wonder if it has hurt creativity, especially in passing.  I feel like people used to spend most of their time learning to play on the playground in pickup games, thus being creative and having fun while learning the fundamentals from their high school coach.  Off topic, but I'd be curious if anyone has some insight into that.

Re: Kevin Love isn't special anymore
« Reply #52 on: February 13, 2016, 06:09:53 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Kevin Love was never special, he was just very, very good. Guys like Jordan, Lebron, Kobe, Garnett and Shaq were special.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Kevin Love isn't special anymore
« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2016, 06:17:52 PM »

Offline D Dub

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Agree that he didn't have great last season including current season... but the thing is we know why it was. It was because of injury and because he had to adapt to lebron style of bball.
C'mon, what are we talking about. The guy can ball period. Only thing with him is his health, If he can stay healthy he would be huuuuge upgrade over any of our PF's. If DA can get him for Lee + filler + non BKN 2016 pick, he should do it.
Cleveland knows the project didn't work as planned, lbj is nervous and impatient, so if they don't trade him by the deadline they will do it in the summer (when GM Griffin will be fired...).

I'm right there with you, but honestly why would Cle even consider that offer?   They want to get better right now and likely want another wing/defender.   

If we really want to get Love, I think we have to be willing to give up Bradley. 

Re: Kevin Love isn't special anymore
« Reply #54 on: February 13, 2016, 06:27:47 PM »

Offline chilidawg

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By DRPM both Sullinger and Olynyk grade out as above average defenders.   I'm willing to bet that Love would be too in our system.

Re: Kevin Love isn't special anymore
« Reply #55 on: February 13, 2016, 06:54:47 PM »

Offline mctyson

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Kevin Love was never special, he was just very, very good. Guys like Jordan, Lebron, Kobe, Garnett and Shaq were special.

Thank you.  Love is so "special" that his best season win total without Lebron James was 40.

Re: Kevin Love isn't special anymore
« Reply #56 on: February 13, 2016, 06:57:12 PM »

Offline JBcat

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I think Love would flourish here but the cost of getting him would probably be substantial.  We would probably have to gut our roster too much especially considering the Cavs are in win now mode. If all things being equal you can make the case you would rather have Horford because of defense and can play both PF and C.  Then factor in the cost of getting Horford should be much less because he's a potential rental (but I think we could resign him with his bird rights), and I think he should age fine.

Re: Kevin Love isn't special anymore
« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2016, 07:04:58 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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You all hear the other day Lebron... "says if he could play with any legend it would be J Kidd because of his ability find you"

Not that Lebron's wrong, Jason Kidd is one of the best producers of quality shots for his teammates that the game has ever seen, but I do think Lebron is still not entirely aware of just how much he effects his team's offense by being the primary ball handler.

Think even Jason Kidd would have trouble finding him if Lebron played the game the way he always had in his career, he's like Rondo, completely ball dominant. When he doesn't have the ball he's not usually the type to make intelligent cuts or sneaking behind off ball screens, he's calling for the ball so he can drive on his match up.

Lebron IMO is the ultimate example of the AAU system hurting a player's growth. Ever since a young age rather than working with coaches on developing a fundamentally sound game he was playing game after game against inferior competition physically dominating his match ups and passing to teammates who are just spotting up from the same spot they always watch Lebron from. He only ever got as good as he needed to. He never really learned to play off the ball because he never had to when he was learning the game.

Which brings us to Love. Whether its conscious or not Lebron pigeon holes Love into the same role that his mental makeup believes a PF should play and Love's strengths are wasted because of it. Love's just there to kick out too on drives, swing too on the perimeter and clean up Lebron's misses. Lebron's never been able to develop real chemistry with his Love or most of his other teammates in the way that Pierce, KG, and Ray did or Duncan, Parker, and Ginobli did because he views his role on the team as the Lebron show and everyone else needs to get out of his way.

Long winded analysis aside that's just my take on why Love has fallen off as far as he has.

TLDR: Kevin Love is putting up pedestrian PF numbers because the primary ball handler Lebron plays as if he's a pedestrian PF.
Yes, this. Love had a significant post game in Minny. Could he resurrect that in Boston?  In any case, his defense has always been suspect. Rather have Horford and keep this team's tough character intact.

Re: Kevin Love isn't special anymore
« Reply #58 on: February 13, 2016, 07:09:06 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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He's certainly not special getting used like Ryan Anderson in Cleveland.  This is why there is talk of trading him in the first place.
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Re: Kevin Love isn't special anymore
« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2016, 07:13:58 PM »

Offline mgent

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The Celtics have the 3rd overall best defense with a bunch of slop playing at PF/C. Are people seriously trying to say that the C's would be that more worse off with Love than what we have now? Cleveland is a top 10 defense with Love. While Love might not be a great individual defender, it doesn't mean that our entire defense is going to somehow crumble should he come to Boston. He's a massive upgrade offensively/skills wise over anyone on our roster at that position. He's also 27 years old and locked up for the next 4 years. He's the type of player we need to be looking to add.

You're underrating the hell out of Sully and Johnson's defense if you seriously think our defense would be comparable if Love was getting 35 minutes instead.

AJ is above average defender but Sully is average at best. He has the IQ but the footwork and bounce is simply not there. So, yeah, I would say that our defense would not suffer anything if you insert K Love instead of Sully.

Right, Sully is average and Love is below average (and not just slightly below average).

A bad defender on a top defensive team causes MUCH more damage than an average one.

It's called a "hole," or a "chink in one's armor."

Teams would ALWAYS be running a pick and roll with whoever Love is guarding.

EDIT:  And for the record, I think Sully is a decent defender vs. guys who don't outmatch him with speed or height.  He's tough to move, he's smart, takes up a ton of space on the floor, he's half decent at slapping the ball loose when a player posts him up, and usually he goes straight up rather than chancing a foul.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2016, 07:19:55 PM by mgent »
Philly:

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Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale