Author Topic: Toxic players  (Read 7078 times)

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Re: Toxic players
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2016, 04:25:07 PM »

Online Donoghus

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Not exactly what part you don't understand.  Spin means bias.  Opinions are inherently biased, and inherently have spin.  Putting "spin" on your own personal opinion is either impossible or a waste of time because your own personal bias is already written all over your opinions....
SMH. I think you took one too many spins around the block sir.

I think if you just keep saying stuff like that instead of actually refuting the points I'm making, you'll convince a lot more people.

I wouldn't sweat it too much, mgent.  That's his go-to when he can't refute things.   He also reads what he wants to read in his head in regards to peoples' posts rather than the words written sometimes.  I wouldn't bang your head too much about this.


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Re: Toxic players
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2016, 04:27:51 PM »

Offline KeepRondo

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No where in any of my posts will you see anything close to "the clothes Westbrook wears makes him a punk."

That's what you call a fact, not an opinion.

Why are you blatantly putting words in my mouth over and over again?  I can prove it by showing you my original post if you want.

It said I'm going to reserve judgement on Westbrook's personality because it I don't know enough about him, but it SEEMS (my opinion) like he's KIND OF a punk.  I mentioned his clothes were a factor, AND I mentioned the interviews I've seen of him were a factor (obviously a much bigger one than his clothes), AND FUTHERMORE I mentioned a specific interview where he was dissing Smart because Smart outplayed him.

So I'm not sure how all that got past you.


Actually, I'm not sure whether Westbrook has a high quality personality or not, I don't know enough about him.

Though, given how he dresses and the few interviews I've seen, he kinda seems like a punk (when we beat OKC he basically dissed Smart for no reason).
You keep spinning it however you like. You said the way he dresses and talks make him a punk.

This is just getting stupid at this point. Not calling you stupid. But this whole back and forth is dumb. You want to persue this any further, you can PM me.

Re: Toxic players
« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2016, 04:31:35 PM »

Offline KeepRondo

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Not exactly what part you don't understand.  Spin means bias.  Opinions are inherently biased, and inherently have spin.  Putting "spin" on your own personal opinion is either impossible or a waste of time because your own personal bias is already written all over your opinions....
SMH. I think you took one too many spins around the block sir.

I think if you just keep saying stuff like that instead of actually refuting the points I'm making, you'll convince a lot more people.

I wouldn't sweat it too much, mgent.  That's his go-to when he can't refute things.   He also reads what he wants to read in his head in regards to peoples' posts rather than the words written sometimes.  I wouldn't bang your head too much about this.
Right because you don't like me calling Hillary Killery. Only reason you are sticking up for him. I got dragged into this silly back and forth. All I said was Westbrook is not a punk. He got bent out of shape. Whatever.

Re: Toxic players
« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2016, 04:51:43 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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That's his go-to when he can't refute things.   He also reads what he wants to read in his head in regards to peoples' posts rather than the words written sometimes. 

Right because you don't like me calling Hillary Killery. Only reason you are sticking up for him.

Sure proved him wrong there  ;D

Entertaining exchange gentlemen.  Brightened up a working Saturday.  TPs for both of ya and mgent.



On the original topic, I think it's hard to label seemingly 3/4 of the superstars in the league, including multiple champions and finalists as "toxic".  Seems more like a list of guys who rub the OP the wrong way.  I think there's only a handful of guys who straddle the line between "bad enough attitude/focus to frequently hurt their team" and "talented enough to still hold down a roster spot".  JR Smith would be one, Lance has been one in the past, Howard seems like he might qualify.  But not many.

Re: Toxic players
« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2016, 04:53:05 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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I'd like to think that there's not so much a thing as "Toxic" players.

I think that if you can add the right "mix" of players around these on the list - including the right Coach, GM, Organization and Tradition - you could produce a Championship with ANY of them.

It's all about the Chemistry and timing, in my opinion.

Could Michael have won without Scotty OR Phil?

Could Larry have won without Chief, McHale or KC Jones?

Could Russell have won without Red's support OR Cousy?

As an example - I think the single most important PERSON in the Oklahoma City Thunder's organization is NOT Durant OR Westbrook - but SAM PRESTI.

He has built an INCREDIBLE team - stopped perhaps by only LeBron James, timing and INJURIES, only.

Re: Toxic players
« Reply #50 on: February 13, 2016, 04:58:30 PM »

Offline KeepRondo

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That's his go-to when he can't refute things.   He also reads what he wants to read in his head in regards to peoples' posts rather than the words written sometimes. 

Right because you don't like me calling Hillary Killery. Only reason you are sticking up for him.

Sure proved him wrong there  ;D

Entertaining exchange gentlemen.  Brightened up a working Saturday.  TPs for both of ya and mgent.



On the original topic, I think it's hard to label seemingly 3/4 of the superstars in the league, including multiple champions and finalists as "toxic".  Seems more like a list of guys who rub the OP the wrong way.  I think there's only a handful of guys who straddle the line between "bad enough attitude/focus to frequently hurt their team" and "talented enough to still hold down a roster spot".  JR Smith would be one, Lance has been one in the past, Howard seems like he might qualify.  But not many.
It wasn't easy following mgent down that rabbit hole. Glad I at least got a TP out of it.

TY and TP back to you.

Re: Toxic players
« Reply #51 on: February 13, 2016, 05:16:58 PM »

Offline max215

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I think a player can only be toxic if he has the loudest and most influential voice in the lockerroom. Markieff Morris, for example, would not be able to get away with this crap if KG was in the lockerroom. So to be toxic you have to command respect, yet have a crappy attitude. You likely have to be your team's best player, but it's most destructive as well. There is only one truly toxic player in the league: James Harden.
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Re: Toxic players
« Reply #52 on: February 13, 2016, 05:32:24 PM »

Offline CroCorvus

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That's his go-to when he can't refute things.   He also reads what he wants to read in his head in regards to peoples' posts rather than the words written sometimes. 

Right because you don't like me calling Hillary Killery. Only reason you are sticking up for him.

Sure proved him wrong there  ;D

Entertaining exchange gentlemen.  Brightened up a working Saturday.  TPs for both of ya and mgent.



On the original topic, I think it's hard to label seemingly 3/4 of the superstars in the league, including multiple champions and finalists as "toxic".  Seems more like a list of guys who rub the OP the wrong way.  I think there's only a handful of guys who straddle the line between "bad enough attitude/focus to frequently hurt their team" and "talented enough to still hold down a roster spot".  JR Smith would be one, Lance has been one in the past, Howard seems like he might qualify.  But not many.
Well you and others are probably right that for a few mentioned players the word toxic is not really apropriate or adequate. But when you see a problem with my post regarding the possibility it could be the 3/4 of the leagues superstars I say that this is true and this is modern day NBA. Back in the day we didn't have these type of players. It was mans league. Now you have immature teenage millionaire superstars who care only about themselves because they are all about business... that's why I enjoy these Celtics team because they represent everything that I love about basketball. I simply cannot go with mentioned players and their enormous egos and that was my maine motiv to start this thread. We are loaded with assets and I just don't want us to trade for them... thats all, forget the word toxic, i'll change it...

Re: Toxic players
« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2016, 06:04:46 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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That's his go-to when he can't refute things.   He also reads what he wants to read in his head in regards to peoples' posts rather than the words written sometimes. 

Right because you don't like me calling Hillary Killery. Only reason you are sticking up for him.

Sure proved him wrong there  ;D

Entertaining exchange gentlemen.  Brightened up a working Saturday.  TPs for both of ya and mgent.



On the original topic, I think it's hard to label seemingly 3/4 of the superstars in the league, including multiple champions and finalists as "toxic".  Seems more like a list of guys who rub the OP the wrong way.  I think there's only a handful of guys who straddle the line between "bad enough attitude/focus to frequently hurt their team" and "talented enough to still hold down a roster spot".  JR Smith would be one, Lance has been one in the past, Howard seems like he might qualify.  But not many.
Well you and others are probably right that for a few mentioned players the word toxic is not really apropriate or adequate. But when you see a problem with my post regarding the possibility it could be the 3/4 of the leagues superstars I say that this is true and this is modern day NBA. Back in the day we didn't have these type of players. It was mans league. Now you have immature teenage millionaire superstars who care only about themselves because they are all about business... that's why I enjoy these Celtics team because they represent everything that I love about basketball. I simply cannot go with mentioned players and their enormous egos and that was my maine motiv to start this thread. We are loaded with assets and I just don't want us to trade for them... thats all, forget the word toxic, i'll change it...

No disrespect but a "kids these days" argument doesn't really carry any weight with me, since I've been following the league long enough to remember those exact arguments being used against players who are now "real men from the good old days".  It's hard to complain today's players are all about business while yearning for the days of Michael Jordan. 

More to the point, most of the guys on your list are tremendously talented, and quite a few are only annoying to the extent that they're extremely competitive.  I'd love Chris Paul on a team I rooted for, for example, even if he's obnoxious as an opponent.

Re: Toxic players
« Reply #54 on: February 13, 2016, 07:01:59 PM »

Offline mgent

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Not exactly what part you don't understand.  Spin means bias.  Opinions are inherently biased, and inherently have spin.  Putting "spin" on your own personal opinion is either impossible or a waste of time because your own personal bias is already written all over your opinions....
SMH. I think you took one too many spins around the block sir.

I think if you just keep saying stuff like that instead of actually refuting the points I'm making, you'll convince a lot more people.

I wouldn't sweat it too much, mgent.  That's his go-to when he can't refute things.   He also reads what he wants to read in his head in regards to peoples' posts rather than the words written sometimes.  I wouldn't bang your head too much about this.
Right because you don't like me calling Hillary Killery. Only reason you are sticking up for him. I got dragged into this silly back and forth. All I said was Westbrook is not a punk. He got bent out of shape. Whatever.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, that's ALL you said?    :o

I questioned Westbrook's personality and you countered that/stuck up for him by saying he gives 100% when playing basketball....  Of course I have to respond to that, and of course I'm going to respond whenever somebody misquotes me or misunderstood/misrepresents what I said.

I don't think it's a crazy question because a lot of professional NBA/NFL/MLB players who have grown up being better than everyone else can be jerks/horrible people.  Of course i treat every player as innocent until proven guilty, but the way Westbrook acts in interviews (like he's better than everyone else) has made me question.  I've told you multiple times this is the main reason why I'm questioning his personality/questioning whether he's a punk (which is much different than CALLING him a punk) but you can't seem to look past the fact I *GASP* mentioned his clothes (because the way someone dresses says absolutely nothing about them right?)
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Re: Toxic players
« Reply #55 on: February 13, 2016, 07:38:29 PM »

Offline CroCorvus

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That's his go-to when he can't refute things.   He also reads what he wants to read in his head in regards to peoples' posts rather than the words written sometimes. 

Right because you don't like me calling Hillary Killery. Only reason you are sticking up for him.

Sure proved him wrong there  ;D

Entertaining exchange gentlemen.  Brightened up a working Saturday.  TPs for both of ya and mgent.



On the original topic, I think it's hard to label seemingly 3/4 of the superstars in the league, including multiple champions and finalists as "toxic".  Seems more like a list of guys who rub the OP the wrong way.  I think there's only a handful of guys who straddle the line between "bad enough attitude/focus to frequently hurt their team" and "talented enough to still hold down a roster spot".  JR Smith would be one, Lance has been one in the past, Howard seems like he might qualify.  But not many.
Well you and others are probably right that for a few mentioned players the word toxic is not really apropriate or adequate. But when you see a problem with my post regarding the possibility it could be the 3/4 of the leagues superstars I say that this is true and this is modern day NBA. Back in the day we didn't have these type of players. It was mans league. Now you have immature teenage millionaire superstars who care only about themselves because they are all about business... that's why I enjoy these Celtics team because they represent everything that I love about basketball. I simply cannot go with mentioned players and their enormous egos and that was my maine motiv to start this thread. We are loaded with assets and I just don't want us to trade for them... thats all, forget the word toxic, i'll change it...

No disrespect but a "kids these days" argument doesn't really carry any weight with me, since I've been following the league long enough to remember those exact arguments being used against players who are now "real men from the good old days".  It's hard to complain today's players are all about business while yearning for the days of Michael Jordan. 

More to the point, most of the guys on your list are tremendously talented, and quite a few are only annoying to the extent that they're extremely competitive.  I'd love Chris Paul on a team I rooted for, for example, even if he's obnoxious as an opponent.
No disrespect taken, you seem like a guy who knows whats he's saying. But I must tell you what was I thinking when I said I don't like the todays business end of the game. Well I don't like when the sponsors are creating public opinions about certain players. I totally understand you when you say that you would be thrilled to see cp3 in green. I can understand it. Is he a great player? Yes. Is he a great competitor? Maybe. Is he a great leader? Thats questionable, because he's teams often crush under preassure of PO's. And the way he flopps all the time, arguing and begging the refs for call's? To me it seams like he would cheat to win the games and I don't like that. That is not the reason I follow the NBA. Him, lbj's, melos, wades, howards, hardens and like them are not the reason why I'm woking up in the middle of the night and watch 2,5h of bball, go to sleep for a few hours and go to work (I'm from Croatia). No, the reason are this Celtics team because they represent everything I love about basketball. Not the "Corporate NBA". I root against those guys because the good part of their brand is made up from the sponsors and the league.... BTW, back in the day I have never liked MJ, I was more of a Bird, Kemp, Barkley and those type of players fan.

Re: Toxic players
« Reply #56 on: February 13, 2016, 07:54:39 PM »

Offline KeepRondo

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Not exactly what part you don't understand.  Spin means bias.  Opinions are inherently biased, and inherently have spin.  Putting "spin" on your own personal opinion is either impossible or a waste of time because your own personal bias is already written all over your opinions....
SMH. I think you took one too many spins around the block sir.

I think if you just keep saying stuff like that instead of actually refuting the points I'm making, you'll convince a lot more people.

I wouldn't sweat it too much, mgent.  That's his go-to when he can't refute things.   He also reads what he wants to read in his head in regards to peoples' posts rather than the words written sometimes.  I wouldn't bang your head too much about this.
Right because you don't like me calling Hillary Killery. Only reason you are sticking up for him. I got dragged into this silly back and forth. All I said was Westbrook is not a punk. He got bent out of shape. Whatever.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, that's ALL you said?    :o

I questioned Westbrook's personality and you countered that/stuck up for him by saying he gives 100% when playing basketball....  Of course I have to respond to that, and of course I'm going to respond whenever somebody misquotes me or misunderstood/misrepresents what I said.

I don't think it's a crazy question because a lot of professional NBA/NFL/MLB players who have grown up being better than everyone else can be jerks/horrible people.  Of course i treat every player as innocent until proven guilty, but the way Westbrook acts in interviews (like he's better than everyone else) has made me question.  I've told you multiple times this is the main reason why I'm questioning his personality/questioning whether he's a punk (which is much different than CALLING him a punk) but you can't seem to look past the fact I *GASP* mentioned his clothes (because the way someone dresses says absolutely nothing about them right?)
This back and forth with you is like having an argument with a drunk guy who keeps rambling about nonsense. I don't really care what you have to say any longer.

Re: Toxic players
« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2016, 07:57:02 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

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Not exactly what part you don't understand.  Spin means bias.  Opinions are inherently biased, and inherently have spin.  Putting "spin" on your own personal opinion is either impossible or a waste of time because your own personal bias is already written all over your opinions....
SMH. I think you took one too many spins around the block sir.

I think if you just keep saying stuff like that instead of actually refuting the points I'm making, you'll convince a lot more people.

I wouldn't sweat it too much, mgent.  That's his go-to when he can't refute things.   He also reads what he wants to read in his head in regards to peoples' posts rather than the words written sometimes.  I wouldn't bang your head too much about this.
Right because you don't like me calling Hillary Killery. Only reason you are sticking up for him. I got dragged into this silly back and forth. All I said was Westbrook is not a punk. He got bent out of shape. Whatever.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, that's ALL you said?    :o

I questioned Westbrook's personality and you countered that/stuck up for him by saying he gives 100% when playing basketball....  Of course I have to respond to that, and of course I'm going to respond whenever somebody misquotes me or misunderstood/misrepresents what I said.

I don't think it's a crazy question because a lot of professional NBA/NFL/MLB players who have grown up being better than everyone else can be jerks/horrible people.  Of course i treat every player as innocent until proven guilty, but the way Westbrook acts in interviews (like he's better than everyone else) has made me question.  I've told you multiple times this is the main reason why I'm questioning his personality/questioning whether he's a punk (which is much different than CALLING him a punk) but you can't seem to look past the fact I *GASP* mentioned his clothes (because the way someone dresses says absolutely nothing about them right?)
This back and forth with you is like having an argument with a drunk guy who keeps rambling about nonsense. I don't really care what you have to say any longer.
Not exactly what part you don't understand.  Spin means bias.  Opinions are inherently biased, and inherently have spin.  Putting "spin" on your own personal opinion is either impossible or a waste of time because your own personal bias is already written all over your opinions....
SMH. I think you took one too many spins around the block sir.

I think if you just keep saying stuff like that instead of actually refuting the points I'm making, you'll convince a lot more people.

I wouldn't sweat it too much, mgent.  That's his go-to when he can't refute things.   He also reads what he wants to read in his head in regards to peoples' posts rather than the words written sometimes.  I wouldn't bang your head too much about this.
Right because you don't like me calling Hillary Killery. Only reason you are sticking up for him. I got dragged into this silly back and forth. All I said was Westbrook is not a punk. He got bent out of shape. Whatever.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, that's ALL you said?    :o

I questioned Westbrook's personality and you countered that/stuck up for him by saying he gives 100% when playing basketball....  Of course I have to respond to that, and of course I'm going to respond whenever somebody misquotes me or misunderstood/misrepresents what I said.

I don't think it's a crazy question because a lot of professional NBA/NFL/MLB players who have grown up being better than everyone else can be jerks/horrible people.  Of course i treat every player as innocent until proven guilty, but the way Westbrook acts in interviews (like he's better than everyone else) has made me question.  I've told you multiple times this is the main reason why I'm questioning his personality/questioning whether he's a punk (which is much different than CALLING him a punk) but you can't seem to look past the fact I *GASP* mentioned his clothes (because the way someone dresses says absolutely nothing about them right?)

Please. Guys just kiss and make up.

You guys are two perfectly well and articulate gentlemen. Just walk away, and lets discuss more insightful conversations about the team we both love.

;)

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Re: Toxic players
« Reply #58 on: February 13, 2016, 08:05:52 PM »

Offline Greyman

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I'm tending to the camp that says with the right man management, team mates and motivation players can do what they are paid for - produce high quality performance - despite apparent personality flaws. I know of sporting teams who have won their top honours even though the players hated each other and didn't mix outside of training and game day.

I can't recall the NFL player (think he might have played for the cowboys) who never spoke to any of his team mates but won a super bowl with them.

There are undoubtedly exceptions where ultra talented players disrupt harmony too much. They are paid to perform, not be friends or drinking buddies though and if team and player are producing I don't care if they leave work not all mates. Obviously harmony is preferable but pro sport is about winning, not happy families.

That said, under CBS and DA I think the whole family idea is valued and they want players who contribute to that.

Re: Toxic players
« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2016, 08:09:05 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I don't think Lebron, Wade, Cousins, Westbrook or Paul belong on that list.

I might add Love, though.

I do feel Lebron belongs on the list, but I guess it depends on your definition of the term 'Toxic'.

If by "Toxic" you mean guys who are so destructive in a locker room that they make their teams bad as a result, then I think Lebron's success (in terms of wins) pretty clearly disputes that. 

If by "toxic" you mean his presence degrades those around him, then I do agree with this.  I think Lebron is an incredibly arrogant and egotistical person - he might not show it to the full extent in the public eye, but I get a sense that he's much more arrogant and egotistical behind closed doors, and that he's very difficult to be on a team with.  He seems extremely self centred, and seems to expect every team he plays on to be 100% built the way he wants, and centred 100% around his game. 

I feel everywhere Lebron goes, everybody who plays with him has to sacrifice everything, and completely re-mould themselves into being somebody else, just to survive alongside him...and yet I never seem to see Lebron ever make sacrifices in his game in order to try and fit better with others. 

I feel like he makes everybody around him worse everywhere he goes, and but manages to win anyway on his rediculous talent alone.  I kinda put him on MJ's level in that regard - arrogant, egotistical **** who gets excused for it simply because he is talented enough to be able to win anyway.  In this league, winning really does excuse you of all faults. 

Wade I do not believe belongs on this team.  I see Wade as a very KG like guy, in that he is an ultimate competitor who will do whatever it takes to win.  He plays with heart every night, he gives it his 100% whenever he's on the court, and he backs down from nobody.  There is no denying that Wade is a dirty player, but you can make that argument for KG too.  The difference between Wade/KG and other dirty players (like JR Smith and Ron Artest) is that Wade and KG are the type of guys who will make cheap plays in order to give them an edge on their opponent...whereas Smith and Artest seem to make cheap, dirty plays simply because they are utter head cases who have no control over their own frustrations. 

CP3 I put in the same category as Wade and KG.  He can be cheap / dirty in the way he plays, but ultimately it's all in the name of competitiveness.  I can't help but feel that CP3's teams are always way better with him than without him, and I think he also makes individual players around him better as well.  But he's highly competitive and will do what it takes to win.

Cousins I don't see as toxic either.  Cousins is a very emotional and competitive player.  I honestly believe he plays with huge passion and energy every night - some people argue he takes plays off.  I argue that it's hard not to when you have to constantly to EVERYTHING for your team.  Regardless, he's a guy who wears his emotions on his sleeve, and while that passion is what no doubt drives him to be as great as he is, sometimes it gets him in trouble.  I think being the best centre in the NBA (as a result of that passion) greatly outweighs the occasional outburst or vent. 

I don't think Cousins he's toxic though, because I haven't really seen evidence to suggest Cousins creates problems with team-mates, with owners, with management, etc.  He's stuck by one of the mist toxic franchises in the league, even though they continue to struggle to put a winning team on the floor, and constantly make stupid decisions.  Even with the whole George Karl fiasco, Cousins seems to have avoided overreacting and accepted the situation with a surprising amount of grace.  Plus he's managed to co-exist with Rajon Rondo without any noteworthy dramas, and that is high praise in itself.  I think Cousins would be a much calmer guy if he were playing for a more respectable and stable franchise - I think any passionate player (Wade, Paul, Garnett, Kobe, Pierce, etc) would get extremely frustrated and start losing it if they spent their entire career with the Kings.

Westbrook, I don't know.  I don't feel he's toxic, I just feel he's kinda a weirdo and introvert.  There have been some signs (such as the aforementioned comments about Smart) that suggest he's a bit of an arrogant princess who is used to having everything go his way (can't take getting outplayed, so has to put dirt on the other guy) but even if that's true it doesn't make him Toxic.  I'm not sure he has any negative affects on his teammates, after all.