Author Topic: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden  (Read 13314 times)

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Re: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden
« Reply #75 on: February 12, 2016, 06:54:48 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I'm with Stevens, there's no use trying to squeeze guys into traditional positional roles. You've got ball-handlers, wings, swings and bigs. It's like when people say "Smart isn't a true PG". I don't think that really matters. Harden can play both on and off the ball, so I could say he's a PG, SG or SF. In reality he's a ball-handler with good passing and driving ability.
Yeah, this only makes sense when you have the roster that Brad Stevens does. If your PF is Kevin Garnett, and your SF is Kevin Durant, there'd be no talk of "wings" and "swings".

Sure there is.  Garnett played a lot of Center, because he is a big.  According to basketball reference, Durant has logged 20-25% of his minutes over the last 5 years at the 4.  That is what a swing does.  It's what LeBron does as well, and Carmelo, and even Pierce the last few years.  And it's not unique to Stevens -- most teams do it.  Look at the Clippers since Griffin has been out.
Garnett played a lot of C when he could no longer handle the PF position anymore. And some SF when he wasn't strong enough to handle PF. He was a no-doubt PF for the bulk of his career, much like Ray Allen was a no-doubt SG and Durant is a no-doubt SF.

In fact, I think every single starter on our 2008 team was prototypical for his position.
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Re: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden
« Reply #76 on: February 12, 2016, 06:56:37 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Too lazy to read this whole thread, so if this has been mentioned, apologies.

Was just watching Early Edition  on CSNNE. They were kicking around a trade idea from ESPN.

Boston gets Harden

Rox get IT, LEE, 2016,Brooklyn 2016.

Ryan said he thought it would take 2 Brooklyn's.

Thoughts?
We don't need Harden. We need a real center who can rebound and fill up the paint. I'd take Monroe over both Howard and Horford. And I want no part of Cousins.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden
« Reply #77 on: February 12, 2016, 06:57:10 PM »

Offline byennie

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Too lazy to read this whole thread, so if this has been mentioned, apologies.

Was just watching Early Edition  on CSNNE. They were kicking around a trade idea from ESPN.

Boston gets Harden

Rox get IT, LEE, 2016,Brooklyn 2016.

Ryan said he thought it would take 2 Brooklyn's.

Thoughts?

Heck no. IT makes half as much $$ and gives you 90% of Harden's offense, and we're throwing in a top-5 pick and more? Never going to happen. Paying $11M for Thomas plus e.g. Brandon Ingram versus $17M for Harden is a no-brainer.

Re: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden
« Reply #78 on: February 12, 2016, 07:02:34 PM »

Offline csfansince60s

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Too lazy to read this whole thread, so if this has been mentioned, apologies.

Was just watching Early Edition  on CSNNE. They were kicking around a trade idea from ESPN.

Boston gets Harden

Rox get IT, LEE, 2016,Brooklyn 2016.

Ryan said he thought it would take 2 Brooklyn's.

Thoughts?
We don't need Harden. We need a real center who can rebound and fill up the paint. I'd take Monroe over both Howard and Horford. And I want no part of Cousins.

We agree on Monroe.

With harden, he isos so much that our ball movement (one of our best features) would die. I saw something yesterday that he has had more isos this year thsn the entire GSW team. Crazy....no thanks for me either.

At least Monroe, among his other positive attributes,  is that he can pass real well .

Re: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden
« Reply #79 on: February 12, 2016, 07:36:05 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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I'm telling you guys it's 3 positions. But obviously the SF falls in the middle so a swingman is always SF capable. People confuse wing and swingman.

Re: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden
« Reply #80 on: February 12, 2016, 07:40:50 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Dbl post

Re: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden
« Reply #81 on: February 12, 2016, 07:40:55 PM »

Offline aingeforthree

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Too lazy to read this whole thread, so if this has been mentioned, apologies.

Was just watching Early Edition  on CSNNE. They were kicking around a trade idea from ESPN.

Boston gets Harden

Rox get IT, LEE, 2016,Brooklyn 2016.

Ryan said he thought it would take 2 Brooklyn's.

Thoughts?
We don't need Harden. We need a real center who can rebound and fill up the paint. I'd take Monroe over both Howard and Horford. And I want no part of Cousins.

We agree on Monroe.

With harden, he isos so much that our ball movement (one of our best features) would die. I saw something yesterday that he has had more isos this year thsn the entire GSW team. Crazy....no thanks for me either.

At least Monroe, among his other positive attributes,  is that he can pass real well .

Do you think it's possible Coach Stevens changes Harden's iso game & draws it back a bit ?

Re: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden
« Reply #82 on: February 12, 2016, 07:45:44 PM »

Offline rondohondo

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Too lazy to read this whole thread, so if this has been mentioned, apologies.

Was just watching Early Edition  on CSNNE. They were kicking around a trade idea from ESPN.

Boston gets Harden

Rox get IT, LEE, 2016,Brooklyn 2016.

Ryan said he thought it would take 2 Brooklyn's.

Thoughts?
We don't need Harden. We need a real center who can rebound and fill up the paint. I'd take Monroe over both Howard and Horford. And I want no part of Cousins.

We agree on Monroe.

With harden, he isos so much that our ball movement (one of our best features) would die. I saw something yesterday that he has had more isos this year thsn the entire GSW team. Crazy....no thanks for me either.

At least Monroe, among his other positive attributes,  is that he can pass real well .

Do you think it's possible Coach Stevens changes Harden's iso game & draws it back a bit ?

i don't think you can change Harden's game.

same with melo. That's why they arent great fits for Stevens' system.

Durant or George would be perfect running around screens , and having plays set up for them .

Re: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden
« Reply #83 on: February 12, 2016, 08:26:08 PM »

Offline 2short

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Harden WORKS at not playing defense and is the iso king of the nba.  So he is a killer of ball movement and team defense.
No thanks.  For any player on our team

Re: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden
« Reply #84 on: February 12, 2016, 09:13:19 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Whole swing wing combo thing aside. You absolutely deal multiple core players and picks for Harden. I would even go as far as AJ, IT, AB, Lee and ALL 2016 picks for Harden and Howard. Harden is a top ten player. Howard is a top 5 center still.

Smart/Rozier
Harden/Turner/Hunter
Crowder/JJ/Young
KO/Sully/Mikey
Howard/Zeller

Re: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden
« Reply #85 on: February 12, 2016, 09:41:44 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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OKC ...should trade what ever ....to get Harden back to join Westbrooke and Durrant.

I think those three could unseat Warriors.

Re: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden
« Reply #86 on: February 13, 2016, 02:56:06 AM »

Offline aingeforthree

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Too lazy to read this whole thread, so if this has been mentioned, apologies.

Was just watching Early Edition  on CSNNE. They were kicking around a trade idea from ESPN.

Boston gets Harden

Rox get IT, LEE, 2016,Brooklyn 2016.

Ryan said he thought it would take 2 Brooklyn's.

Thoughts?
We don't need Harden. We need a real center who can rebound and fill up the paint. I'd take Monroe over both Howard and Horford. And I want no part of Cousins.

We agree on Monroe.

With harden, he isos so much that our ball movement (one of our best features) would die. I saw something yesterday that he has had more isos this year thsn the entire GSW team. Crazy....no thanks for me either.

At least Monroe, among his other positive attributes,  is that he can pass real well .

Do you think it's possible Coach Stevens changes Harden's iso game & draws it back a bit ?

i don't think you can change Harden's game.

same with melo. That's why they arent great fits for Stevens' system.

Durant or George would be perfect running around screens , and having plays set up for them .

I think Harden's a perfect fit in this system, & in any system to be honest. Houston is struggling in general, & that doesn't help anyone's game.

Harden's a legit mvp candidate. Brad Stevens isn't going to just waiste that type of talent. He'd excel in this system, just like lesser players like Turner have.

Re: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden
« Reply #87 on: February 13, 2016, 08:23:32 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Other than the beard, I don't know what is not to like about Harden.  Seems like just what we need; anchor scorer who will demand defensive attention and open things up for other players.  26 years old, on a good contract.  I think we can make up for his defense assuming he plays with Smart, Crowder, Sullinger, and maybe Mickey or Zeller?

I am not holding my breath but boy, I would love this.


I've never been a fan.  I do like the beard though.

Poor defender, high usage, low efficiency.

For people who are down on Harden because of defense, who would you rather have as your primary offensive scoring star player?  LeBron?  OK, Carmelo?, Curry? Durant?, that is 4.  How about Chris Paul?  Harden is younger than all of these guys.  Would you rather have Leonard or Butler?  What about Westbrook?  It seems like a pretty short list of players that would potentially be better than Harden most or all of which we would never have a chance to get or don't play any better defense anyway.

I think if Houston or the league in general is down on Harden, let's get him.  No player is perfect.

Isaiah Thomas?

Wow.  Thomas is having a nice year but I can't imagine if there was an expansion draft and 30 GMs had the choice of Thomas or Harden that any would take Thomas.  I guess we see things quite differently.

I'm not suggesting that Isaiah Thomas has more objective value than James Harden.  Harden was the MVP runner-up last year and is (I believe) second in the league in scoring this year.

My point was more that we already have a top notch leading scorer/ballhandler in Isaiah.  To get Harden, we would most likely have to give up at least Thomas and additional significant assets (maybe this year's Brooklyn pick and more).

Considering the kind of on-court chemistry Isaiah has with the current team, his level of play, the assuredly very high cost to attain Harden (if he's even attainable at all), I'm not sure it would be worth it.

That's what I'm saying.

That is more clear and easier to agree with.  I think Thomas is a nice player but not the same caliber as Harden.  You seem to agree in general.  Where we differ I guess is that I would be very willing to give up IT in a Harden deal as I think having that MVP caliber player (at least one) is really what you need if you want a team to be really good.

Most people are critical of Harden due to perceived defensive weakness (not sure if that is your view as well).  But IT is not exactly a stopper himself.  I think IT plays serviceable defense and I think Harden would play serviceable defense for the Celtics.

Re: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden
« Reply #88 on: February 13, 2016, 08:44:54 AM »

Offline mgent

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I'm telling you guys it's 3 positions. But obviously the SF falls in the middle so a swingman is always SF capable. People confuse wing and swingman.

Sorry, wasn't aware you were the first person to invent the word.

You're correct that wing and swingman aren't the same thing, and people often confuse them, but they're not nearly as different as you seem to think they are.  Like we were saying, a swingman just stands on the wing.  Any SG or SF can be referred to as a wing.  A swingman is someone who can play both (a swingman is a wing but a wing isn't necessarily a swingman).
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Re: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden
« Reply #89 on: February 13, 2016, 10:02:30 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

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I'm telling you guys it's 3 positions. But obviously the SF falls in the middle so a swingman is always SF capable. People confuse wing and swingman.

Sorry, wasn't aware you were the first person to invent the word.

You're correct that wing and swingman aren't the same thing, and people often confuse them, but they're not nearly as different as you seem to think they are.  Like we were saying, a swingman just stands on the wing.  Any SG or SF can be referred to as a wing.  A swingman is someone who can play both (a swingman is a wing but a wing isn't necessarily a swingman).
It's nothing to do with inventing. It's common mistake that I was pointing out. Never had a problem with people using Swingman for Harden only that it's not meant for a SG/SF. SG/SF is a wing. Swing man just means three position capable level player.