Author Topic: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden  (Read 13312 times)

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Re: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden
« Reply #60 on: February 12, 2016, 04:19:32 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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I go for "playmaking wing". Nice way to lump all those guys together.
Yup.

Harden can credibly play any of the 1 - 3. playmaking wing probably the best way to describe that mix.

Re: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden
« Reply #61 on: February 12, 2016, 04:22:17 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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I've been in the market of "we need a superstar" for a couple year now...However at this point, I don't think Harden is a guy I would spend the assets on.

It looks increasingly like our pint sized point guard is playing like a superstar.  If it plays like a superstar and quacks like a superstar, it may, in fact, be a superstar.
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Re: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden
« Reply #62 on: February 12, 2016, 04:25:10 PM »

Offline Celts Fan 508

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I thought that when I clicked on this thread it was going to be about whether we should try to acquire Harden, not a definition of what position he plays, my bad. 
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Re: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden
« Reply #63 on: February 12, 2016, 04:25:10 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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So the links say Im right in that it takes multiple position capable player to be a swingman not a guy that is a SG/SF. A guy who would be stuck in the middle between two positions is a tweener.
Um, no, it takes specific ability to play SG and SF. That's what all cited sources say. Nothing else.
That is not right it's multiple positions as the link says.

PG/SG capable is combo guard
SG/SF capable is a wing
Sf/PF is tweener
PF/C is just a big

PG/SG/SF or more is a swingman
C/PF/SF or more is a swingman
SG/SF/PF is a swingman
Swingmen take pride in it. Let's not get it wrong

« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 04:53:36 PM by Csfan1984 »

Re: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden
« Reply #64 on: February 12, 2016, 04:25:54 PM »

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Adrian Wojnarowski breaks the news that Atlanta Hawks forward Al Horford will replace Bosh on the Eastern Conference team. – via Yahoo! Sports


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Re: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden
« Reply #65 on: February 12, 2016, 04:31:20 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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Ugh....I really should've broken that discussion out into its own separate thread.  :P


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Re: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden
« Reply #66 on: February 12, 2016, 04:56:13 PM »

Offline BDeCosta26

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I'm with Stevens, there's no use trying to squeeze guys into traditional positional roles. You've got ball-handlers, wings, swings and bigs. It's like when people say "Smart isn't a true PG". I don't think that really matters. Harden can play both on and off the ball, so I could say he's a PG, SG or SF. In reality he's a ball-handler with good passing and driving ability.

Re: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden
« Reply #67 on: February 12, 2016, 05:04:59 PM »

Offline mgent

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To play this semantics game, Harden is a swingman, not a combo guard.

My two cents.
Swingman would be best

So no longer a "combo guard by definition?"  Which is a confusing assertion because now you also have to prove Harden plays significant time at the 1 (as in, the shortest guy on the floor).

Swingman plays more than 2 postions. Harden can play PG and SG without being over matched he can play spot minutes at SF. Playing SF isn't enough to be a swingman it's 3 positions. He can be swung to 3 positions. Which is the point I was making that makes him a swing man. Today's swingman is confused with SG/SF capable players. Swingman is for guys that could play 3 spots. So C/PF/SF is a swingman. PG/SG/SF is a swingman. It's a special player

Well, that's never how I understood the term.  I understood it as the equivalent of combo forward (SF/PF) and combo guard (SG/PG), but used to refer to a "combo" of SG/SF (because calling someone a "guard-forward" is an awkward and oxymoronic term and doesn't roll off the tongue as nicely as swingman or ideally, wing).

Same way no one uses "forward-center."  It's awkward, so people say/write "big," which is easier/quicker.

AKA, "swingman" is a specific type of "tweener," or player who primarily plays TWO positions, not three.  Players who have legitimately played major minutes at 3 different positions don't really exist in the NBA (there's a handful players who could get away with it like LeBron and Jordan, but I can't think of any who have physically done it).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweener_(basketball)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swingman

Quote
In basketball, the term "swingman" (aka "guard-forward") denotes a player who can play both the shooting guard (2) and small forward (3) positions, and, in essence swing between the positions. Most swingmen range from 6' 4" (1.93 m) to 6' 9" (2.06 m) in height. The term was first applied to John Havlicek.

Was Havlicek not a point forward (also same height as Harden and Oscar)?

Continue reading the wiki page to see a list of other guys who were swingmen.  Some were taller than Harden, some shorter, but none of them you would ever see described as able to swing between the 1, 2, and 3 easily.  Aside from perhaps Iggy.

You'll also see a link to the "combo guard" page, where it describes the player as 6'2"-6'4", and gives a list of players who don't resemble Harden.

Also, if you want to make the argument that Harden could swing to the 1 easier than the 3, (which you did in your post) I think you'll lose that one too.  How many times total in his career has he played the 1 (as in, the shortest guy on the floor, guarding the opposing PG)?  If you look at his size, slowness, rebounding talent, and tendency to play in the paint, he makes an unbelievably better SF than PG.  Not to mention his defense.  Much better vs. slower players, PGs will just blow past him, and he probably won't try to recover, or even keep up.  If you have the biggest hole in your defense guarding the PG, you're pretty stupid because that's just asking the other team to get easy offense.
So the links say Im right in that it takes multiple position capable player to be a swingman not a guy that is a SG/SF. A guy who would be stuck in the middle between two positions is a tweener.

The link says a swingman is a multi-position player, and specifically when used in regards to basketball, it means a SG/SF.

And yes, wiki cites a book that actually was written on the criteria for evaluating positions in basketball.

Not sure what you're so hung up on.  A tweener is someone who can go "between" different positions.

I've personally never heard of a SF/PF/C capable player like Rodman or KG be called a swingman.

If that's what you want to call them, that's great.

I'm not critiquing how you decide who is or isn't a swingman, you're critiquing my definition (which by the way is the same as dictionary.com's and merriam-webster since apparently wiki is trash all of a sudden).

And why are you correcting/debating me?  Oh yeah, because it's of dire importance that Harden is CORRECTLY referred to by everyone as a "playing-making wing" as opposed to a "point forward."
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Re: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden
« Reply #68 on: February 12, 2016, 05:19:45 PM »

Offline mgent

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To play this semantics game, Harden is a swingman, not a combo guard.

My two cents.
Swingman would be best

So no longer a "combo guard by definition?"  Which is a confusing assertion because now you also have to prove Harden plays significant time at the 1 (as in, the shortest guy on the floor).

Swingman plays more than 2 postions. Harden can play PG and SG without being over matched he can play spot minutes at SF. Playing SF isn't enough to be a swingman it's 3 positions. He can be swung to 3 positions. Which is the point I was making that makes him a swing man. Today's swingman is confused with SG/SF capable players. Swingman is for guys that could play 3 spots. So C/PF/SF is a swingman. PG/SG/SF is a swingman. It's a special player

Well, that's never how I understood the term.  I understood it as the equivalent of combo forward (SF/PF) and combo guard (SG/PG), but used to refer to a "combo" of SG/SF (because calling someone a "guard-forward" is an awkward and oxymoronic term and doesn't roll off the tongue as nicely as swingman or ideally, wing).

Same way no one uses "forward-center."  It's awkward, so people say/write "big," which is easier/quicker.

AKA, "swingman" is a specific type of "tweener," or player who primarily plays TWO positions, not three.  Players who have legitimately played major minutes at 3 different positions don't really exist in the NBA (there's a handful players who could get away with it like LeBron and Jordan, but I can't think of any who have physically done it).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweener_(basketball)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swingman

Quote
In basketball, the term "swingman" (aka "guard-forward") denotes a player who can play both the shooting guard (2) and small forward (3) positions, and, in essence swing between the positions. Most swingmen range from 6' 4" (1.93 m) to 6' 9" (2.06 m) in height. The term was first applied to John Havlicek.

Was Havlicek not a point forward (also same height as Harden and Oscar)?

Continue reading the wiki page to see a list of other guys who were swingmen.  Some were taller than Harden, some shorter, but none of them you would ever see described as able to swing between the 1, 2, and 3 easily.  Aside from perhaps Iggy.

You'll also see a link to the "combo guard" page, where it describes the player as 6'2"-6'4", and gives a list of players who don't resemble Harden.

Also, if you want to make the argument that Harden could swing to the 1 easier than the 3, (which you did in your post) I think you'll lose that one too.  How many times total in his career has he played the 1 (as in, the shortest guy on the floor, guarding the opposing PG)?  If you look at his size, slowness, rebounding talent, and tendency to play in the paint, he makes an unbelievably better SF than PG.  Not to mention his defense.  Much better vs. slower players, PGs will just blow past him, and he probably won't try to recover, or even keep up.  If you have the biggest hole in your defense guarding the PG, you're pretty stupid because that's just asking the other team to get easy offense.
So the links say Im right in that it takes multiple position capable player to be a swingman not a guy that is a SG/SF. A guy who would be stuck in the middle between two positions is a tweener.

This "swingman" debate is kiling me.  And as much as I like unsourced Wikipedia entries, maybe everybody could just use Brad Stevens definition:

http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2015/06/brad_stevens_boston_celtics_lu.html

Quote
The coach added he would like to see the Celtics add more "swings" who can guard the 3 and 4.

"Obviously everyone starts with 1s, 2s, 3s, 4s and 5s when they look at a basketball team," Stevens said. "I look at ball-handlers, wings, swings and bigs. I only have four categories. The more guys that can play the more positions, the better. Right now I think if you look at the roster, I think we have three of the four categories with a lot of depth. And I think that swing area where you can go 3-4 and play that way, that's the area we're going to have to adress as we move into the next few weeks and look at our team."

That's funny, because the wiki article that you're dissing makes the exact same distinctions as Brad, only difference is they call it a combo forward instead of a swing.

Ball-handler = combo guard = player who can handle the ball and is quick enough to guard PGs

Wing = wing/swingman/guard-forward = player who is big enough to guard SFs and quick enough to guard SGs

Swing = combo forward/cornerman/stretch 4 = player who is big enough to guard PFs and quick enough to guard SFs.

Big = forward/center = player who is big enough to guard Cs and quick enough to guard PFs (though PFs and Cs aren't really distinct anymore and don't really have defining characteristics).
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Re: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden
« Reply #69 on: February 12, 2016, 05:20:12 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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So the links say Im right in that it takes multiple position capable player to be a swingman not a guy that is a SG/SF. A guy who would be stuck in the middle between two positions is a tweener.
Um, no, it takes specific ability to play SG and SF. That's what all cited sources say. Nothing else.
That is not right it's multiple positions as the link says.

PG/SG capable is combo guard
SG/SF capable is a wing
Sf/PF is tweener
PF/C is just a big

PG/SG/SF or more is a swingman
C/PF/SF or more is a swingman
SG/SF/PF is a swingman
Swingmen take pride in it. Let's not get it wrong
I have never seen anyone use those terms as you suggest for as long as I have followed basketball.

"Wing" and "swingman" is pretty much the same thing. Wing is not exactly popular in basketball lingo. Either way, "wing" is more of a hockey/soccer term and is typically used to designate a location on the court rather than a position.

A "tweener" is a player who is caught between position, typically not skilled enough for  the smaller one, or not strong/long enough for the bigger one. The fact that the word is derived from (in-)between. Someone who was big enough to be a PF in college, but isn't quite skilled or big enough to be a SF in the NBA is just the most common example.   

The appropriate terms "combo guard" and "combo forward" are used for players who could play both guard and forward spots adequately.
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Re: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden
« Reply #70 on: February 12, 2016, 05:23:55 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I'm with Stevens, there's no use trying to squeeze guys into traditional positional roles. You've got ball-handlers, wings, swings and bigs. It's like when people say "Smart isn't a true PG". I don't think that really matters. Harden can play both on and off the ball, so I could say he's a PG, SG or SF. In reality he's a ball-handler with good passing and driving ability.
Yeah, this only makes sense when you have the roster that Brad Stevens does. If your PF is Kevin Garnett, and your SF is Kevin Durant, there'd be no talk of "wings" and "swings".
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Re: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden
« Reply #71 on: February 12, 2016, 05:34:59 PM »

Offline saltlover

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I'm with Stevens, there's no use trying to squeeze guys into traditional positional roles. You've got ball-handlers, wings, swings and bigs. It's like when people say "Smart isn't a true PG". I don't think that really matters. Harden can play both on and off the ball, so I could say he's a PG, SG or SF. In reality he's a ball-handler with good passing and driving ability.
Yeah, this only makes sense when you have the roster that Brad Stevens does. If your PF is Kevin Garnett, and your SF is Kevin Durant, there'd be no talk of "wings" and "swings".

Sure there is.  Garnett played a lot of Center, because he is a big.  According to basketball reference, Durant has logged 20-25% of his minutes over the last 5 years at the 4.  That is what a swing does.  It's what LeBron does as well, and Carmelo, and even Pierce the last few years.  And it's not unique to Stevens -- most teams do it.  Look at the Clippers since Griffin has been out.

Re: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden
« Reply #72 on: February 12, 2016, 05:52:03 PM »

Offline mgent

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Either way, "wing" is more of a hockey/soccer term and is typically used to designate a location on the court rather than a position.

This was my opinion as well.  You're not a wing because you're a SG or SF, you're a wing because that's where you stand when your team sets their offense.  Just so happens the SG and SF usually fill both wings, and so the name stuck.

As for "point forward," I thought that meant possessing the skills of both a PG and a forward.  Didn't know it was a rule you have to play the 3 for x amount of minutes.  I'm pretty sure Harden's rebounding, length, and preference for getting down low qualifies him.
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Re: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden
« Reply #73 on: February 12, 2016, 06:01:16 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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Either way, "wing" is more of a hockey/soccer term and is typically used to designate a location on the court rather than a position.

This was my opinion as well.  You're not a wing because you're a SG or SF, you're a wing because that's where you stand when your team sets their offense.  Just so happens the SG and SF usually fill both wings, and so the name stuck.

As for "point forward," I thought that meant possessing the skills of both a PG and a forward.  Didn't know it was a rule you have to play the 3 for x amount of minutes.  I'm pretty sure Harden's rebounding, length, and preference for getting down low qualifies him.

I would third that sentiment on a wing.  I think of it more as a place on the floor although I have also heard it loosely labeled on someone playing a combo of SG/SF or SF/PF also. 

The way I've always sorta viewed things from a term sense. Feel free to disagree but this is how I was brought up in my understanding of the game.

Combo Guard - PG/SG (Ellis, Bradley)
 
Swingman - SG/SF or SF/PF (Pierce, Durant, Melo)

Tweener - Usually someone too big/slow to play the 3 but undersized/overmatched at the 4 (Ryan Gomes type).

Big - PF/C (Garnett)

Point Forward - Usually a 3 or 4 who has some PG tendencies (Lebron) or wanna be PG tendencies (Antoine Walker)

PG & C's aren't in the swingman conversation.  Only applies to some combo of the 2-4 positions.


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Re: Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden
« Reply #74 on: February 12, 2016, 06:47:04 PM »

Offline csfansince60s

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Too lazy to read this whole thread, so if this has been mentioned, apologies.

Was just watching Early Edition  on CSNNE. They were kicking around a trade idea from ESPN.

Boston gets Harden

Rox get IT, LEE, 2016,Brooklyn 2016.

Ryan said he thought it would take 2 Brooklyn's.

Thoughts?