Forget Horford or Howard...It's Harden

[Celtics18]

Other than the beard, I don't know what is not to like about Harden.  Seems like just what we need; anchor scorer who will demand defensive attention and open things up for other players.  26 years old, on a good contract.  I think we can make up for his defense assuming he plays with Smart, Crowder, Sullinger, and maybe Mickey or Zeller?

I am not holding my breath but boy, I would love this.

I've never been a fan.  I do like the beard though.

Poor defender, high usage, low efficiency.

For people who are down on Harden because of defense, who would you rather have as your primary offensive scoring star player?  LeBron?  OK, Carmelo?, Curry? Durant?, that is 4.  How about Chris Paul?  Harden is younger than all of these guys.  Would you rather have Leonard or Butler?  What about Westbrook?  It seems like a pretty short list of players that would potentially be better than Harden most or all of which we would never have a chance to get or don't play any better defense anyway.

I think if Houston or the league in general is down on Harden, let's get him.  No player is perfect.

Isaiah Thomas?

[Vermont Green]

Other than the beard, I don't know what is not to like about Harden.  Seems like just what we need; anchor scorer who will demand defensive attention and open things up for other players.  26 years old, on a good contract.  I think we can make up for his defense assuming he plays with Smart, Crowder, Sullinger, and maybe Mickey or Zeller?

I am not holding my breath but boy, I would love this.

I've never been a fan.  I do like the beard though.

Poor defender, high usage, low efficiency.

For people who are down on Harden because of defense, who would you rather have as your primary offensive scoring star player?  LeBron?  OK, Carmelo?, Curry? Durant?, that is 4.  How about Chris Paul?  Harden is younger than all of these guys.  Would you rather have Leonard or Butler?  What about Westbrook?  It seems like a pretty short list of players that would potentially be better than Harden most or all of which we would never have a chance to get or don't play any better defense anyway.

I think if Houston or the league in general is down on Harden, let's get him.  No player is perfect.

Isaiah Thomas?

Wow.  Thomas is having a nice year but I can't imagine if there was an expansion draft and 30 GMs had the choice of Thomas or Harden that any would take Thomas.  I guess we see things quite differently.

[mgent]

To play this semantics game, Harden is a swingman, not a combo guard.

My two cents.

Swingman would be best

So no longer a "combo guard by definition?"  Which is a confusing assertion because now you also have to prove Harden plays significant time at the 1 (as in, the shortest guy on the floor).

Swingman plays more than 2 postions. Harden can play PG and SG without being over matched he can play spot minutes at SF. Playing SF isn't enough to be a swingman it's 3 positions. He can be swung to 3 positions. Which is the point I was making that makes him a swing man. Today's swingman is confused with SG/SF capable players. Swingman is for guys that could play 3 spots. So C/PF/SF is a swingman. PG/SG/SF is a swingman. It's a special player

Well, that's never how I understood the term.  I understood it as the equivalent of combo forward (SF/PF) and combo guard (SG/PG), but used to refer to a "combo" of SG/SF (because calling someone a "guard-forward" is an awkward and oxymoronic term and doesn't roll off the tongue as nicely as swingman or ideally, wing).

Same way no one uses "forward-center."  It's awkward, so people say/write "big," which is easier/quicker.

AKA, "swingman" is a specific type of "tweener," or player who primarily plays TWO positions, not three.  Players who have legitimately played major minutes at 3 different positions don't really exist in the NBA (there's a handful players who could get away with it like LeBron and Jordan, but I can't think of any who have physically done it).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweener_(basketball)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swingman

In basketball, the term "swingman" (aka "guard-forward") denotes a player who can play both the shooting guard (2) and small forward (3) positions, and, in essence swing between the positions. Most swingmen range from 6' 4" (1.93 m) to 6' 9" (2.06 m) in height. The term was first applied to John Havlicek.

Was Havlicek not a point forward (also same height as Harden and Oscar)?

Continue reading the wiki page to see a list of other guys who were swingmen.  Some were taller than Harden, some shorter, but none of them you would ever see described as able to swing between the 1, 2, and 3 easily.  Aside from perhaps Iggy.

You'll also see a link to the "combo guard" page, where it describes the player as 6'2"-6'4", and gives a list of players who don't resemble Harden.

Also, if you want to make the argument that Harden could swing to the 1 easier than the 3, (which you did in your post) I think you'll lose that one too.  How many times total in his career has he played the 1 (as in, the shortest guy on the floor, guarding the opposing PG)?  If you look at his size, slowness, rebounding talent, and tendency to play in the paint, he makes an unbelievably better SF than PG.  Not to mention his defense.  Much better vs. slower players, PGs will just blow past him, and he probably won't try to recover, or even keep up.  If you have the biggest hole in your defense guarding the PG, you're pretty stupid because that's just asking the other team to get easy offense.

[SHAQATTACK]

Horford and Howard are available primarily, because their teams realize there's a very good shot they will leave them high and dry this Summer. 

They are in our position last year with Rondo.  All signs pointed to Rondo bailing for the Lakers.  We had to get something for him while we could.

Bingo.....


Only Horford makes,any sense .   But I think DA has learned a few lessons .....one being reported he nearly gave away the bank for Winslow .   I bet he now breaths a sign of relief .

[danglertx]

I think we end up with Howard and at a much cheaper price than people on here are speculating about.

Apparently in this meeting with Harden and Howard the Rockets found out the two of them didn't want to play with each other.  They know Howard is leaving as I think everyone in the league does when the year is over.  Injuries, age and attitude further erode Howard's value.  The teams who aren't in a position to win the title don't want him as a rental.    So the teams in contention being the Spurs, Warriors, Thunder, Cavs, Clippers, Raptors and maybe the Hawks are all pretty set at the C position.  It is debatable whether the teams under that even want the headache that is Howard.

That leaves maybe two or three teams, none who are  NEEDING him.  Charlotte, possible.  MJ might want to make a splash and Big Al could go back the other way.  Celtics, probably, Howard fills a need but doesn't fit the style the Celtics play.  The C's could send back expiring contracts and a pick or picks.  Chicago could use Howard as a fill in type guy while players are injured.  But he could opt in on them and I don't think they want that. 

The pool that would want Howard is pretty small.  I can't see the price tag being bid up very high on him.

[Who]

I think we end up with Howard and at a much cheaper price than people on here are speculating about.

Apparently in this meeting with Harden and Howard the Rockets found out the two of them didn't want to play with each other.  They know Howard is leaving as I think everyone in the league does when the year is over.  Injuries, age and attitude further erode Howard's value.  The teams who aren't in a position to win the title don't want him as a rental.    So the teams in contention being the Spurs, Warriors, Thunder, Cavs, Clippers, Raptors and maybe the Hawks are all pretty set at the C position.  It is debatable whether the teams under that even want the headache that is Howard.

OKC should go after Dwight. Offer up Kanter and further incentives (Adams, Payne, 1st).

Dwight + Ibaka + Durant + Westbrook

[Clench123]

Ew, ew, double ew.

Exactly how i feel

[kozlodoev]

Only Horford makes,any sense .   But I think DA has learned a few lessons .....one being reported he nearly gave away the bank for Winslow .   I bet he now breaths a sign of relief .

Horford's game has fallen off a cliff though. He's sitting at 7 rpg this season.

[Csfan1984]

To play this semantics game, Harden is a swingman, not a combo guard.

My two cents.

Swingman would be best

So no longer a "combo guard by definition?"  Which is a confusing assertion because now you also have to prove Harden plays significant time at the 1 (as in, the shortest guy on the floor).

Swingman plays more than 2 postions. Harden can play PG and SG without being over matched he can play spot minutes at SF. Playing SF isn't enough to be a swingman it's 3 positions. He can be swung to 3 positions. Which is the point I was making that makes him a swing man. Today's swingman is confused with SG/SF capable players. Swingman is for guys that could play 3 spots. So C/PF/SF is a swingman. PG/SG/SF is a swingman. It's a special player

Well, that's never how I understood the term.  I understood it as the equivalent of combo forward (SF/PF) and combo guard (SG/PG), but used to refer to a "combo" of SG/SF (because calling someone a "guard-forward" is an awkward and oxymoronic term and doesn't roll off the tongue as nicely as swingman or ideally, wing).

Same way no one uses "forward-center."  It's awkward, so people say/write "big," which is easier/quicker.

AKA, "swingman" is a specific type of "tweener," or player who primarily plays TWO positions, not three.  Players who have legitimately played major minutes at 3 different positions don't really exist in the NBA (there's a handful players who could get away with it like LeBron and Jordan, but I can't think of any who have physically done it).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweener_(basketball)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swingman

In basketball, the term "swingman" (aka "guard-forward") denotes a player who can play both the shooting guard (2) and small forward (3) positions, and, in essence swing between the positions. Most swingmen range from 6' 4" (1.93 m) to 6' 9" (2.06 m) in height. The term was first applied to John Havlicek.

Was Havlicek not a point forward (also same height as Harden and Oscar)?

Continue reading the wiki page to see a list of other guys who were swingmen.  Some were taller than Harden, some shorter, but none of them you would ever see described as able to swing between the 1, 2, and 3 easily.  Aside from perhaps Iggy.

You'll also see a link to the "combo guard" page, where it describes the player as 6'2"-6'4", and gives a list of players who don't resemble Harden.

Also, if you want to make the argument that Harden could swing to the 1 easier than the 3, (which you did in your post) I think you'll lose that one too.  How many times total in his career has he played the 1 (as in, the shortest guy on the floor, guarding the opposing PG)?  If you look at his size, slowness, rebounding talent, and tendency to play in the paint, he makes an unbelievably better SF than PG.  Not to mention his defense.  Much better vs. slower players, PGs will just blow past him, and he probably won't try to recover, or even keep up.  If you have the biggest hole in your defense guarding the PG, you're pretty stupid because that's just asking the other team to get easy offense.

So the links say Im right in that it takes multiple position capable player to be a swingman not a guy that is a SG/SF. A guy who would be stuck in the middle between two positions is a tweener.

[kozlodoev]

So the links say Im right in that it takes multiple position capable player to be a swingman not a guy that is a SG/SF. A guy who would be stuck in the middle between two positions is a tweener.

Um, no, it takes specific ability to play SG and SF. That's what all cited sources say. Nothing else.

[Donoghus]

I think we end up with Howard and at a much cheaper price than people on here are speculating about.

Apparently in this meeting with Harden and Howard the Rockets found out the two of them didn't want to play with each other.  They know Howard is leaving as I think everyone in the league does when the year is over.  Injuries, age and attitude further erode Howard's value.  The teams who aren't in a position to win the title don't want him as a rental.    So the teams in contention being the Spurs, Warriors, Thunder, Cavs, Clippers, Raptors and maybe the Hawks are all pretty set at the C position.  It is debatable whether the teams under that even want the headache that is Howard.

OKC should go after Dwight. Offer up Kanter and further incentives (Adams, Payne, 1st).

Dwight + Ibaka + Durant + Westbrook

I don't know if I would do that if I was OKC.  That team is starting to really hit its stride in the past few weeks or so.  40-14 at the break is nothing to sneeze at. Why risk the change to team chemistry when they're already a serious contender in the West?  I don't know if they need to do anything overly drastic in regards to roster changes.  Adams seems to know his role and playing well in that system.  Not sure that Howard would put them over the top in the West at the risk of sacrificing some depth.

It's a tough call.

[bdm860]

To play this semantics game, Harden is a swingman, not a combo guard.

My two cents.

Swingman would be best

So no longer a "combo guard by definition?"  Which is a confusing assertion because now you also have to prove Harden plays significant time at the 1 (as in, the shortest guy on the floor).

Swingman plays more than 2 postions. Harden can play PG and SG without being over matched he can play spot minutes at SF. Playing SF isn't enough to be a swingman it's 3 positions. He can be swung to 3 positions. Which is the point I was making that makes him a swing man. Today's swingman is confused with SG/SF capable players. Swingman is for guys that could play 3 spots. So C/PF/SF is a swingman. PG/SG/SF is a swingman. It's a special player

Well, that's never how I understood the term.  I understood it as the equivalent of combo forward (SF/PF) and combo guard (SG/PG), but used to refer to a "combo" of SG/SF (because calling someone a "guard-forward" is an awkward and oxymoronic term and doesn't roll off the tongue as nicely as swingman or ideally, wing).

Same way no one uses "forward-center."  It's awkward, so people say/write "big," which is easier/quicker.

AKA, "swingman" is a specific type of "tweener," or player who primarily plays TWO positions, not three.  Players who have legitimately played major minutes at 3 different positions don't really exist in the NBA (there's a handful players who could get away with it like LeBron and Jordan, but I can't think of any who have physically done it).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweener_(basketball)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swingman

In basketball, the term "swingman" (aka "guard-forward") denotes a player who can play both the shooting guard (2) and small forward (3) positions, and, in essence swing between the positions. Most swingmen range from 6' 4" (1.93 m) to 6' 9" (2.06 m) in height. The term was first applied to John Havlicek.

Was Havlicek not a point forward (also same height as Harden and Oscar)?

Continue reading the wiki page to see a list of other guys who were swingmen.  Some were taller than Harden, some shorter, but none of them you would ever see described as able to swing between the 1, 2, and 3 easily.  Aside from perhaps Iggy.

You'll also see a link to the "combo guard" page, where it describes the player as 6'2"-6'4", and gives a list of players who don't resemble Harden.

Also, if you want to make the argument that Harden could swing to the 1 easier than the 3, (which you did in your post) I think you'll lose that one too.  How many times total in his career has he played the 1 (as in, the shortest guy on the floor, guarding the opposing PG)?  If you look at his size, slowness, rebounding talent, and tendency to play in the paint, he makes an unbelievably better SF than PG.  Not to mention his defense.  Much better vs. slower players, PGs will just blow past him, and he probably won't try to recover, or even keep up.  If you have the biggest hole in your defense guarding the PG, you're pretty stupid because that's just asking the other team to get easy offense.

So the links say Im right in that it takes multiple position capable player to be a swingman not a guy that is a SG/SF. A guy who would be stuck in the middle between two positions is a tweener.

This "swingman" debate is kiling me.  And as much as I like unsourced Wikipedia entries, maybe everybody could just use Brad Stevens definition:

http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2015/06/brad_stevens_boston_celtics_lu.html

The coach added he would like to see the Celtics add more "swings" who can guard the 3 and 4.

"Obviously everyone starts with 1s, 2s, 3s, 4s and 5s when they look at a basketball team," Stevens said. "I look at ball-handlers, wings, swings and bigs. I only have four categories. The more guys that can play the more positions, the better. Right now I think if you look at the roster, I think we have three of the four categories with a lot of depth. And I think that swing area where you can go 3-4 and play that way, that's the area we're going to have to adress as we move into the next few weeks and look at our team."

[Celtics18]

Other than the beard, I don't know what is not to like about Harden.  Seems like just what we need; anchor scorer who will demand defensive attention and open things up for other players.  26 years old, on a good contract.  I think we can make up for his defense assuming he plays with Smart, Crowder, Sullinger, and maybe Mickey or Zeller?

I am not holding my breath but boy, I would love this.

I've never been a fan.  I do like the beard though.

Poor defender, high usage, low efficiency.

For people who are down on Harden because of defense, who would you rather have as your primary offensive scoring star player?  LeBron?  OK, Carmelo?, Curry? Durant?, that is 4.  How about Chris Paul?  Harden is younger than all of these guys.  Would you rather have Leonard or Butler?  What about Westbrook?  It seems like a pretty short list of players that would potentially be better than Harden most or all of which we would never have a chance to get or don't play any better defense anyway.

I think if Houston or the league in general is down on Harden, let's get him.  No player is perfect.

Isaiah Thomas?

Wow.  Thomas is having a nice year but I can't imagine if there was an expansion draft and 30 GMs had the choice of Thomas or Harden that any would take Thomas.  I guess we see things quite differently.

I'm not suggesting that Isaiah Thomas has more objective value than James Harden.  Harden was the MVP runner-up last year and is (I believe) second in the league in scoring this year.

My point was more that we already have a top notch leading scorer/ballhandler in Isaiah.  To get Harden, we would most likely have to give up at least Thomas and additional significant assets (maybe this year's Brooklyn pick and more).

Considering the kind of on-court chemistry Isaiah has with the current team, his level of play, the assuredly very high cost to attain Harden (if he's even attainable at all), I'm not sure it would be worth it.

That's what I'm saying.

[Fafnir]

I think we end up with Howard and at a much cheaper price than people on here are speculating about.

Apparently in this meeting with Harden and Howard the Rockets found out the two of them didn't want to play with each other.  They know Howard is leaving as I think everyone in the league does when the year is over.  Injuries, age and attitude further erode Howard's value.  The teams who aren't in a position to win the title don't want him as a rental.    So the teams in contention being the Spurs, Warriors, Thunder, Cavs, Clippers, Raptors and maybe the Hawks are all pretty set at the C position.  It is debatable whether the teams under that even want the headache that is Howard.

OKC should go after Dwight. Offer up Kanter and further incentives (Adams, Payne, 1st).

Dwight + Ibaka + Durant + Westbrook

That's a really good idea actually. One of the few fits for Dwight on a contender.

Of course I doubt Houston would want Kanter. Still shocked that OKC gave him that deal....

[pearljammer10]

I've been in the market of "we need a superstar" for a couple year now...However at this point, I don't think Harden is a guy I would spend the assets on.