Author Topic: ESPN says Bill Russell is the 7th greatest player in NBA history  (Read 9069 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: ESPN says Bill Russell is the 7th greatest player in NBA history
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2016, 10:37:22 AM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2493
  • Tommy Points: 199
I have no real issue with Russell at 7th.
The man with the most championships at 7th? The man who went up against and beat Wilt Chamberlain nigh on every year?

I feel like his stature would be far less in doubt if blocks had been recorded back then to quiet the stats crowd. You gotta feel that his BPG would be the all time leader or at least close to it
Russell didn't beat Chamberlain, the Boston Celtics with its 7 or so HOFers did.  Chamberlain consistently out performed Russell in every statistical category. 

Edit: The first time Wilt even had 2 other HOFers (Greer and Cunningham, neither of which was anywhere close to a 1st ballot guy) on his team (aside from Cunningham's rookie year the year prior), the Sixers won 68 games and beat the 8 time defending champion Celtics in 5 games.  Winning matters, no question, but you win when you have talented teammates.  Wilt for the majority of his career did not have great teammates.  When he did, the result was one of the greatest seasons by any team in league history.  And again that is just 2 other HOFers, Russell consistently was playing with at least 4 other HOFers (Hondo, the Joneses, Howell, and early on Cousy).

I think some of those HOF's would say Russell played a large part in their elevation to that level.. I often feel Lebron is a modern day Wilt. Clearly one of the most talented players around but too much of an individual player to be one of the all time greatest. If this was Tennis then stats alone would be enough to call them the best but as it's a team sport and your success is defined by how well you gel with, lead and succeed with your teams, Russell has to come first.

Also, how was Wilt's defence? Now granted I wasn't alive to see it in person but it seems pretty well documented that it was his weakness. Again, stats for defence weren't recorded then, they are still evolving now, but Defence wins Championships. That's something Russell used to preach and something that still holds true today.

Re: ESPN says Bill Russell is the 7th greatest player in NBA history
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2016, 10:39:12 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

  • Johnny Most
  • ********************
  • Posts: 20738
  • Tommy Points: 2365
  • Be the posts you wish to see in the world.
I don't begrudge anyone for putting Jordan first though as a Celtics fan I don't like it.  But Russell shouldn't be much lower than that. 

It's fair to say that Russell's success had a lot to do with the caliber of his teammates as well as his own individual brilliance.  And it's also fair to note that he wouldn't have had nearly as many HOF teammates if they hadn't won so much.  And of course Wilt had several HOF teammates himself.  Trade Wilt + Russell's supporting casts and Wilt probably gets more rings, but the gap would be a lot narrower.

Re: ESPN says Bill Russell is the 7th greatest player in NBA history
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2016, 10:44:45 AM »

Offline slamtheking

  • NCE
  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31869
  • Tommy Points: 10047
Hilarious. Russell is my number one. I'm not sure Lebron is even as high as number 7.

Without even reading the article or looking at any references, so off the top of my head:
1. Russell
2. Jordan
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Olajuwon
8. Kobe
9. Duncan
10. West
1. Russell
2. Wilt
3. Bird
4. Magic
5. Jordan
6. Kareem
7. Robertson
8. Duncan
9. Shaq (pains me to put him this high but he was the dominant center of his time by far)
10. Olajuwon (but I'd seriously consider Lebron about this point which makes me ill)

Re: ESPN says Bill Russell is the 7th greatest player in NBA history
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2016, 10:47:51 AM »

Offline jambr380

  • K.C. Jones
  • *************
  • Posts: 13002
  • Tommy Points: 1756
  • Everybody knows what's best for you
I don't begrudge anyone for putting Jordan first though as a Celtics fan I don't like it.  But Russell shouldn't be much lower than that. 

It's fair to say that Russell's success had a lot to do with the caliber of his teammates as well as his own individual brilliance.  And it's also fair to note that he wouldn't have had nearly as many HOF teammates if they hadn't won so much.  And of course Wilt had several HOF teammates himself.  Trade Wilt + Russell's supporting casts and Wilt probably gets more rings, but the gap would be a lot narrower.

TP - I was coming on to say the same thing. It is kind of the chicken or the egg philosophy - did Russell win because he had HOF teammates or did he make his teammates HOFers because he led them to winning? If Wilt had willed his teams to championships year after year, you have to believe that more Lakers and fewer Cs would be in the hall of fame now, right?

Jordan I can see above Russell, but that's it.

Re: ESPN says Bill Russell is the 7th greatest player in NBA history
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2016, 11:05:56 AM »

Offline csfansince60s

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6234
  • Tommy Points: 2238
I have no real issue with Russell at 7th.
The man with the most championships at 7th? The man who went up against and beat Wilt Chamberlain nigh on every year?

I feel like his stature would be far less in doubt if blocks had been recorded back then to quiet the stats crowd. You gotta feel that his BPG would be the all time leader or at least close to it
Russell didn't beat Chamberlain, the Boston Celtics with its 7 or so HOFers did.  Chamberlain consistently out performed Russell in every statistical category. 

Edit: The first time Wilt even had 2 other HOFers (Greer and Cunningham, neither of which was anywhere close to a 1st ballot guy) on his team (aside from Cunningham's rookie year the year prior), the Sixers won 68 games and beat the 8 time defending champion Celtics in 5 games.  Winning matters, no question, but you win when you have talented teammates.  Wilt for the majority of his career did not have great teammates.  When he did, the result was one of the greatest seasons by any team in league history.  And again that is just 2 other HOFers, Russell consistently was playing with at least 4 other HOFers (Hondo, the Joneses, Howell, and early on Cousy).

That just seems counter-intuitive to me.

Russell was the best player among a bunch of HOF'ers. Wilt was the best player on a bad team.

When Russ need to score, he did. He had the capability to do whatever was necessary.

I know that it's hard to compare across generations, but Russell's drive was greater than Jordan's, forged out of a toughness in overcoming obstacles that Jordan never came close to having. His athletic ability was comparable, too.

Re: ESPN says Bill Russell is the 7th greatest player in NBA history
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2016, 11:09:49 AM »

Offline LHR

  • Joe Mazzulla
  • Posts: 147
  • Tommy Points: 33
  • Executive Producer & Host: Celtics Beat Podcast
Does anyone know if Brian Windhorst or Ramona Shelburne's sources can confirm this?  Also what does LeBron think about these rankings as well as last night's New Hampshire primary?
Author: Fall of the Boston Celtics
Available Here: http://www.clnsradio/LHRbook

EP & Host: Celtics Beat Podcast
Available here: http://apple.co/1E29sq0

Re: ESPN says Bill Russell is the 7th greatest player in NBA history
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2016, 11:16:39 AM »

Offline Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33461
  • Tommy Points: 1533
I have no real issue with Russell at 7th.
The man with the most championships at 7th? The man who went up against and beat Wilt Chamberlain nigh on every year?

I feel like his stature would be far less in doubt if blocks had been recorded back then to quiet the stats crowd. You gotta feel that his BPG would be the all time leader or at least close to it
Russell didn't beat Chamberlain, the Boston Celtics with its 7 or so HOFers did.  Chamberlain consistently out performed Russell in every statistical category. 

Edit: The first time Wilt even had 2 other HOFers (Greer and Cunningham, neither of which was anywhere close to a 1st ballot guy) on his team (aside from Cunningham's rookie year the year prior), the Sixers won 68 games and beat the 8 time defending champion Celtics in 5 games.  Winning matters, no question, but you win when you have talented teammates.  Wilt for the majority of his career did not have great teammates.  When he did, the result was one of the greatest seasons by any team in league history.  And again that is just 2 other HOFers, Russell consistently was playing with at least 4 other HOFers (Hondo, the Joneses, Howell, and early on Cousy).

I think some of those HOF's would say Russell played a large part in their elevation to that level.. I often feel Lebron is a modern day Wilt. Clearly one of the most talented players around but too much of an individual player to be one of the all time greatest. If this was Tennis then stats alone would be enough to call them the best but as it's a team sport and your success is defined by how well you gel with, lead and succeed with your teams, Russell has to come first.

Also, how was Wilt's defence? Now granted I wasn't alive to see it in person but it seems pretty well documented that it was his weakness. Again, stats for defence weren't recorded then, they are still evolving now, but Defence wins Championships. That's something Russell used to preach and something that still holds true today.
Wilt's defense was superb.  He wasn't Russell, but he more than held his own.  And there are numerous reports that Wilt actually blocked more shots than Bill did, though on one will really know since they didn't keep the stat back then.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 11:30:13 AM by Moranis »
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: ESPN says Bill Russell is the 7th greatest player in NBA history
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2016, 11:25:33 AM »

Offline Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33461
  • Tommy Points: 1533
I don't begrudge anyone for putting Jordan first though as a Celtics fan I don't like it.  But Russell shouldn't be much lower than that. 

It's fair to say that Russell's success had a lot to do with the caliber of his teammates as well as his own individual brilliance.  And it's also fair to note that he wouldn't have had nearly as many HOF teammates if they hadn't won so much.  And of course Wilt had several HOF teammates himself.  Trade Wilt + Russell's supporting casts and Wilt probably gets more rings, but the gap would be a lot narrower.
It is really hard to say the gap would be a lot narrower.  I think most of the team's Wilt was on earlier on had maybe 1 other guy who could consistently score, if you exchange Wilt for Bill, I think Bill's team would have a real problem scoring, while I don't see any glaring defect like that in reverse (Wilt was an excellent defender, he wasn't Bill, but he wasn't a slouch on that end either).  Wilt was also an incredible passer.

Wilt really doesn't get enough credit for how good his all around game was.  He wasn't a guy who would just score.  He would run up and down the floor for 48 minutes a game (Wilt has the 7 highest per game season averages in basketball history) and basically played every game every year.  He would defend, block shots, rebound, pass, and of course score. 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: ESPN says Bill Russell is the 7th greatest player in NBA history
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2016, 12:20:35 PM »

Offline mmmmm

  • NCE
  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5308
  • Tommy Points: 862
Has anyone ever applied some of the more advanced (modern metrics) to historical players like Wilt and Russell?  It would be interesting to see what their PER, Real +/-, etc are compared to new players and each other.  Wilt always struck me as a player who filled up the points and rebound stats but team wasn't necessarily better for it. 

I rank Russell highly but I can see a good argument for Kareem, but not Wilt over Russell.

The difficulty with applying most 'advanced stats' is that they require metrics that simply were not recorded back in the 60s.

We can calculate some numbers off of the limited box-score data of the time.  For example, Russell posted PER just of around 20-22 for his first several seasons and then just under 20 for most of the latter half of his career.   However, keep in mind that PER is a minute-normalized efficiency stat.  And if there is one stat that Bill tended to dominate, it was the denominator in that equation:  minutes played.

Russell averaged 42.3 minutes per game for his career.  He lead the association in minutes twice.  He played complete games routinely.   His endurance was phenomenal along with his other elite athletic capabilities (he was a world-class track & field athlete in college).

The large minute accruals would, on one hand tend to inflate some of his counting stats (he frequently lead the league in rebounding) but would also tend to strike against him in some efficiency stats.   If we somehow did try to go back and apply +/- analysis to it, it would have a huge collinearity effect because he was on the floor all the time, with both fellow starters and bench units.

Wilt also tended to play gigantic minutes, leading the league in total minutes 8 times and averaging a sick 45.8 minutes per game for his career.

Comparing the stats of such players to modern players becomes an almost ridiculous exercise.  Modern players just don't carry such a heavy load.  It's like the difference between pitching back then and now in the modern bullpen age.

However, it's notable that even at the tail end of their careers, which flowed into the early 70s for Wilt in his age 33-36 seasons, these two guys STILL tended to be dominant over the next generation of big men who started the modern era.

In Russell's last season, age 34 (1969), he still was grabbing 16.2 rebounds and dealing 4.1 assists per 36 (while still playing 42.7 mpg!).   He ranked 3rd in rebounding (behind Wilt and Unseld) and first in Defensive Win Shares.

In Wilt's final season, age 36, he lead the league in rebounds per game at 18.6 per game, a per-36 rate of 15.5. He was still 2nd in total Win Shares and Win Shares/48.  That's 1973, with great players like Kareem, Cowens, Havlicek, Wes Unseld, Pete Maravich, Nate Thurmond, Elvin Hayes, Bob Lanier, etc., in the league.

Think about it - even as ancient old farts, these two guys were still elite players against the best youngsters the NBA had as it emerged into the 70s, an era of so many legends.

That tells me that when they were in their prime, they probably would have dominated even the best players of any era.

Both Russell and Wilt were elite, world-class track & field athletes.  If Russell had not been allowed to play in the '56 Olympics for basketball (his status was in question due to his having signed with -- thought not yet played for -- the Celtics) he would have competed in the high jump. He was allowed to play for the basketball team (he was the captain) and of course won Olympic gold.   He later jumped over a player in an NBA game.

Wilt could dunk a basketball from outside the free throw line.  And he did so.  In order to make free throws.  In games, before it was made illegal.

IMHO, these were the two most important, most talented and most impactful basketball players in the history of the NBA.

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that those two in their primes could have dominated ANY era of the NBA.

1. Russell
2. Wilt
....
3. The Field
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 12:48:41 PM by mmmmm »
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: ESPN says Bill Russell is the 7th greatest player in NBA history
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2016, 12:26:31 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

  • Johnny Most
  • ********************
  • Posts: 20738
  • Tommy Points: 2365
  • Be the posts you wish to see in the world.
Wilt could dunk a basketball from outside the free throw line.  And he did so.  In games, before it was made illegal.


Just to clarify this for folks because it's amazing, it wasn't the dunking that was illegal, it was that he was dunking his free throws.  He was a bad shooter from the line so he would just dunk them instead.  Completely insane athleticism.

Re: ESPN says Bill Russell is the 7th greatest player in NBA history
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2016, 12:47:15 PM »

Offline slamtheking

  • NCE
  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31869
  • Tommy Points: 10047
Has anyone ever applied some of the more advanced (modern metrics) to historical players like Wilt and Russell?  It would be interesting to see what their PER, Real +/-, etc are compared to new players and each other.  Wilt always struck me as a player who filled up the points and rebound stats but team wasn't necessarily better for it. 

I rank Russell highly but I can see a good argument for Kareem, but not Wilt over Russell.

The difficulty with applying most 'advanced stats' is that they require metrics that simply were not recorded back in the 60s.

We can calculate some numbers off of the limited box-score data of the time.  For example, Russell posted PER just of around 20-22 for his first several seasons and then just under 20 for most of the latter half of his career.   However, keep in mind that PER is a minute-normalized efficiency stat.  And if there is one stat that Bill tended to dominate, it was the denominator in that equation:  minutes played.

Russell averaged 42.3 minutes per game for his career.  He lead the association in minutes twice.  He played complete games routinely.   His endurance was phenomenal along with his other elite athletic capabilities (he was a world-class track & field athlete in college).

The large minute accruals would, on one hand tend to inflate some of his counting stats (he frequently lead the league in rebounding) but would also tend to strike against him in some efficiency stats.   If we somehow did try to go back and apply +/- analysis to it, it would have a huge collinearity effect because he was on the floor all the time, with both fellow starters and bench units.

Wilt also tended to play gigantic minutes, leading the league in total minutes 8 times and averaging a sick 45.8 minutes per game for his career.

Comparing the stats of such players to modern players becomes an almost ridiculous exercise.  Modern players just don't carry such a heavy load.  It's like the difference between pitching back then and now in the modern bullpen age.

However, it's notable that even at the tail end of their careers, which flowed into the early 70s for Wilt in his age 33-36 seasons, these two guys STILL tended to be dominant over the next generation of big men who started the modern era.

In Russell's last season, age 34 (1969), he still was grabbing 16.2 rebounds and dealing 4.1 assists per 36 (while still playing 42.7 mpg!).   He ranked 3rd in rebounding (behind Wilt and Unseld) and first in Defensive Win Shares.

In Wilt's final season, age 36, he lead the league in rebounds per game at 18.6 per game, a per-36 rate of 15.5. He was still 2nd in total Win Shares and Win Shares/48.  That's 1973, with great players like Kareem, Cowens, Havlicek, Wes Unseld, Pete Maravich, Nate Thurmond, Elvin Hayes, Bob Lanier, etc., in the league.

Think about it - even as ancient old farts, these two guys were still elite players against the best youngsters the NBA had as it emerged into the 70s, an era of so many legends.

That tells me that when they were in their prime, they probably would have dominated even the best players of any era.

Both Russell and Wilt were elite, world-class track & field athletes.  If Russell had not been allowed to play in the '56 Olympics for basketball (his status was in question due to his having signed with -- thought not yet played for -- the Celtics) he would have competed in the high jump. He was allowed to play for the basketball team (he was the captain) and of course won Olympic gold.   He later jumped over a player in an NBA game.

Wilt could dunk a basketball from outside the free throw line.  And he did so.  In games, before it was made illegal.

IMHO, these were the two most important, most talented and most impactful basketball players in the history of the NBA.

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that those two in their primes could have dominated ANY era of the NBA.

1. Russell
2. Wilt
....
3. The Field

TP --  well stated

Re: ESPN says Bill Russell is the 7th greatest player in NBA history
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2016, 12:47:36 PM »

Offline mmmmm

  • NCE
  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5308
  • Tommy Points: 862
Wilt could dunk a basketball from outside the free throw line.  And he did so.  In games, before it was made illegal.


Just to clarify this for folks because it's amazing, it wasn't the dunking that was illegal, it was that he was dunking his free throws.  He was a bad shooter from the line so he would just dunk them instead.  Completely insane athleticism.

Yes.  That's what I meant to convey. Thank you for the clarification.  I'll edit it.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: ESPN says Bill Russell is the 7th greatest player in NBA history
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2016, 12:59:05 PM »

Offline Eja117

  • NCE
  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19274
  • Tommy Points: 1254
Some day they'll say Tom Brady is the 7th best QB behind Peyton Manning and 6 guys with less rings than him.   Including possibly Dan Marino

Re: ESPN says Bill Russell is the 7th greatest player in NBA history
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2016, 12:59:16 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

  • Johnny Most
  • ********************
  • Posts: 20738
  • Tommy Points: 2365
  • Be the posts you wish to see in the world.
Wilt could dunk a basketball from outside the free throw line.  And he did so.  In games, before it was made illegal.


Just to clarify this for folks because it's amazing, it wasn't the dunking that was illegal, it was that he was dunking his free throws.  He was a bad shooter from the line so he would just dunk them instead.  Completely insane athleticism.

Yes.  That's what I meant to convey. Thank you for the clarification.  I'll edit it.

Yeah I didn't mean to sound nitpicky but it's such a crazy thing that most fans aren't aware of.  TP for reminding me of it.

Re: ESPN says Bill Russell is the 7th greatest player in NBA history
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2016, 12:59:51 PM »

Offline apc

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4310
  • Tommy Points: 437
Wilt could dunk a basketball from outside the free throw line.  And he did so.  In games, before it was made illegal.


Just to clarify this for folks because it's amazing, it wasn't the dunking that was illegal, it was that he was dunking his free throws.  He was a bad shooter from the line so he would just dunk them instead.  Completely insane athleticism.

Yes.  That's what I meant to convey. Thank you for the clarification.  I'll edit it.
any videos of him doing that ?